SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat vs SSJ Goku

[mister yummy]

Buff Buu being the strongest is a bit of fanon in my circle. I have no real basis for that.

My list is anime based, therefore fat Buu > Gotenks and 'base' Vegito > Buu + Gohan-tatchi.

[Nazi Cola]

Then why is Kid Boo completely weak?

[mister yummy]

No South Kaioshin influence. It might be best to ignore the buff Buu stuff, it all my circle's baseless fanon. We put South Kaioshin above 'mystic' Gohan. Again, for no real reason, except that's what we've believed since we first watched the dub back in 2003 or whatever.

Chibi Buu is weak because he has no one's strength added to his own. He's relatively weak, but he's insane and indestructable, which is where his great power comes from. He's 10 times as dangerous as Super Buu, even if he's less than half as strong(and I'm not sure what the actual fraction might be)

[p123]

Ultimate Gohan
Buff Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks~Super Buu
SSJ2 Gotenks
SSJ Gotenks
Base Gotenks
SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat
SSJ3 Goku~Kid Buu
Fat Buu
Evil Buu
Good Buu
Base Gotenks Pre Rosat
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku


IMO....

[astrallite]

If base Post Rosat Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku, then SSJ3 Gotenks is > 400 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Not that I disagree with that, but that sort of retroactively downgrades every character in DBZ.

Which is kind of funny I would have to say, considering in Dragonball kid Goku lifted 100 tons...

[Fox666]

Goku SSJ3 >>>>> Goku base (Majin Boo saga) > SSJ2 Gohan (Cell saga) >>>> Gohan base (Cell saga) > SSJ Stage 2 Vegeta >>> Vegeta base (Cell saga) > Vegeta SSJ (Android saga) >> Vegeta base (Android saga) > Trunks SSJ (Android saga) >> Trunks base (Android saga) > Goku SSJ (Trunks saga) >> Goku base (Trunks saga) > Trunks SSJ >> Trunks base > Goku SSJ (Trunks saga) > Goku base (Trunks saga) >>>>> Goku SSJ >> Goku base

[dbgtFO]

Which is kind of funny I would have to say, considering in Dragonball kid Goku lifted 100 tons...

When did he do that?

[p123]

Well I think the implications of Base Saiyans > Piccolo > Base Kids Post > SSJ Kids, not to mention...


SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks Pre > SSJ2 Goku

Plus the Killi System, plus the Yakon/Goku situation, plus Dabura's comments about Base Saiyans > Piccolo, plus the weights scenario with Goku, all imply that SSJ is indeed not a 50x boost anymore.


And more likely, that upon attaining MSSJ, one's base becomes phenomenly stronger, perhaps to support the ability of oncoming forms SSJ2 and SSJ3...


So I do not view the MSSJ boost as 50x.


But I guess if you go by the 50x boost SSj3 Gotenks could be upwards of 800x, which is a tad bit ridicolous IMO...


Gotenks SSJ boost is not suggested to be anymore than 4x... Logically all SSJs receive the same boost, at least in the Buu Saga, and SSJ would be a 4x boost, just like SSJ3...



Gotenks Pre Rosat SSJ boost, mirrors Goku's SSj3 boost.. So as long as they are nearly the same, I am ok with it...

[dbgtFO]

, plus the weights scenario with Goku, all imply that SSJ is indeed not a 50x boost anymore.

The weights scenario shows that even though the weights were 5 times as heavy as before, Goku in his SSJ state managed them like a piece of cake compared to what his base form previously showed, which would actually imply, that the boost is way beyond 5 times base.

And about the base Saiyans vs. Piccolo matter...
Neither Babidi nor Dabra felt their full power, so unless a fraction of their base power is way beyond Piccolo by this point, I won't take it seriously. That's just me though.

[Vagrant]

Another thing is that MSSj is stated to not change the form, just to channel the energy more efficiently. Changing how much energy you get from it is changing the form, and so the MSSj form can't have a lower boost than regular old SSj. It can only have equal or greater.

[dbgtFO]

Another thing is that MSSj is stated to not change the form, just to channel the energy more efficiently. Changing how much energy you get from it is changing the form, and so the MSSj form can't have a lower boost than regular old SSj. It can only have equal or greater.

Logically training constantly in one specific form should not grant one's base form extra power for no apparent reason. I think they only gained power in their SSJ form and so the difference between their base and SSJ would be bigger rather than smaller. This would mean that both Vegeta & Future Trunks would be strongest in base form, but weakest in SSJ IMO.
That's also why Vegeta said he was the strongest in normal form at the 25th Budokai, because out of all the Saiyans, he was.

In numbers it'll look like this:

FPSSJ Gohan = 2500
FPSSJ Goku = 2000
Super Vegeta = 810
Super Trunks = 780
SSJ Vegeta = 540
SSJ Trunks = 520
Vegeta = 10.8
Trunks = 10.4
Gohan = 5
Goku = 5

And all that is basically because I myself don't believe in constant multipliers.

Chibi Buu is weak because he has no one's strength added to his own. He's relatively weak, but he's insane and indestructable, which is where his great power comes from. He's 10 times as dangerous as Super Buu, even if he's less than half as strong(and I'm not sure what the actual fraction might be)

If you are basing it on the anime, then you should have Chibi Buu as the strongest Buu ever, since that was stated like 3 times.

[mister yummy]

Just because something is stated doesn't mean it's accurate, especially when it's a character bragging about their own strength or describing an unfamiliar character. It's simply an unreliable source.

The narrator is usually a bit more reliable, but not infallable, especially when hyping the next episode. I've never actually heard the narrator say this anyway, and I can't find an exact quote.

Furthermore, none of those quotes, even if taken as truth, directly outright say Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. He's the most difficult, he's powerful, but he's not the most powerful. He's on a whole other level, he's rediculously strong, he's got incredible power, speed, and recovery, but he's not the most powerful, not on the highest level, not the strongest.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kid Buu is the most dangerous by a long shot, but it's because of his instability, his insanity, his wanton need for destruction, and his pure evil, not from his power. None of the other buus had that in spades as much as he did. Well, maybe Buff Buu. But even he wasn't entirely evil.

Remember, Vegita fights Kid Buu somewhat evenly, despite losing handidly to Fat Buu when he was stronger. Goku killed him, despite being terrified of Super Buu to the point that he was sure he'd be killed if they fought for very long. Kid Buu is shown to be weaker, no matter what's said.

It's like if one of the characters said "Kurillin is a bald midget" during the Buu Saga. He's shown to have hair, so the statement isn't valid. Perhaps they haven't seen him with his hair yet, or something.

[Brohan]

All Buu saga DBZ characters are class 100+ imo, it takes a lot more strength to punch and kick with 40 tons on your body than to just flat out bench it. For example I can bench 165 lbs fairly easily, but I'm not Swinging my arms around with even half of that on them. It be a big effort to try and do that with just 25 lbs on my arms.

And another thing, I'm not exactly sure that pre rosat Gotenks was stronger than Goku, maybe in the same ballpark, but Goku woud have the edge powerwise.

[dbgtFO]

And another thing, I'm not exactly sure that pre rosat Gotenks was stronger than Goku, maybe in the same ballpark, but Goku woud have the edge powerwise.

I have actually converted to SSJ 3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks, since Goku wasn't contradicted by that claim. I won't say that we are talking SSJ Gotenks being several times stronger though, more like 1,5 at most.

[Brohan]

Yeah, in all actuality, Gotenks was probably stronger than Goku, but as a fan I just dont like the idea of Goku's new hax transformation being weaker than a fusion of two 7 year olds.

[Kaboom]

Super Saiyan Gotenks was never proven or shown to be as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. At best, he's implied to be in the same general range as the Super Saiyan 2s. He was considered very strong, perhaps enough to fight against Boo, but there was still doubt as to whether or not he could pull off a win. Considering that the actual power gap between SSj3 Goku and Fat Boo was never clearly defined, then it's even harder to gauge Super Gotenks accurately.

[Nazi Cola]

Just because something is stated doesn't mean it's accurate, especially when it's a character bragging about their own strength or describing an unfamiliar character. It's simply an unreliable source.

The narrator is usually a bit more reliable, but not infallable, especially when hyping the next episode. I've never actually heard the narrator say this anyway, and I can't find an exact quote.

Furthermore, none of those quotes, even if taken as truth, directly outright say Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. He's the most difficult, he's powerful, but he's not the most powerful. He's on a whole other level, he's rediculously strong, he's got incredible power, speed, and recovery, but he's not the most powerful, not on the highest level, not the strongest.

Don't get me wrong, I think Kid Buu is the most dangerous by a long shot, but it's because of his instability, his insanity, his wanton need for destruction, and his pure evil, not from his power. None of the other buus had that in spades as much as he did. Well, maybe Buff Buu. But even he wasn't entirely evil.

Remember, Vegita fights Kid Buu somewhat evenly, despite losing handidly to Fat Buu when he was stronger. Goku killed him, despite being terrified of Super Buu to the point that he was sure he'd be killed if they fought for very long. Kid Buu is shown to be weaker, no matter what's said.

It's like if one of the characters said "Kurillin is a bald midget" during the Buu Saga. He's shown to have hair, so the statement isn't valid. Perhaps they haven't seen him with his hair yet, or something.

But Goku quite clearly says Kid Boo is on a whole nother level from the other Boos, and he's fought all the other Boos except Skinny Boo and Mr Boo. And Kibitoshin does say Kid Boo is the most powerful form of Boo.

[Kaboom]

Only in the anime, thank Dende. The manga has no such twisted, self-circular plot holes for the sake of making Goku look better.

[p123]

Piccolo thinks that SSJ3 Goku has to go all out to beat Fat Buu.
Piccolo thinks SSJ Gotenks has enough power to beat Fat Buu just standing around....As we know, your power just standing around isn't neccessarily the same as your power going all out, implied by Yamcha about SSJ Sick Goku in the Androids Saga...

So this is what I think....


SSJ Gotenks ( Standing ) = SSJ Goku ( All Out ) > SSJ3 Goku ( Toying Against Fat Buu ) >= Fat Buu



Nothing suggests that SSJ Gotenks was a mere SSJ2 tier level opponent. Base Gotenks is suggested to be a SSj2 tier opponent. Why would SSJ Gotenks have no boost off of that.



Nothing in the guides ever suggests varying boosts. When we get the multipliers for them, it is nowhere stated or suggested that this guy or that guy get bigger/smaller boosts. The guides imply set boosts, and nothing in the manga really disproves that...


People simply do not like 7 year old kids being stronger than the mighty Goku. Hey, neither do I, but they are using fusion. Two weak fighters make a powerful warrior. Goku seems to have no problem putting the universe on the line for these kids. Goku says that the kids will be stronger than him, and nothing really contradicts it. If Goku said I am a little stronger than they will be, but they will still win, no one would have a freaking problem accepting that now would they. But no when Gotenks > Goku is directly suggested by Goku, everyone pulls out their twisting logic to try to make it untrue. When it's uncalled for...


SSJ Gotenks is certainly well above SSJ2 tier. Base Gotenks is already on a SSJ2 tier...

[dbgtFO]

And another thing, I'm not exactly sure that pre rosat Gotenks was stronger than Goku, maybe in the same ballpark, but Goku woud have the edge powerwise.

I have actually converted to SSJ 3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks, since Goku wasn't contradicted by that claim. I won't say that we are talking SSJ Gotenks being several times stronger though, more like 1,5 at most.

Once again I've converted from having SSJ Gotenks stronger than SSJ 3 Goku to having him weaker than him. SSJ Gotenks in any incarnation should be more than enough to take out Fat Boo though...

The reason why I changed my opinion is, I believe Goku probably also was factoring in Gotenks reaching SSJ 2:

Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”

Goku was surprised they achieved SSJ 3, but if he didn't count on them eventually reaching SSJ 2, he would surely have said something like: "OMG I didn't even count on them surpassing Super Saiyajin! And yet here they are, having surpassed even that!"

And Goku also lied(or something) to Piccolo about what he told Fat Boo.

Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).

So in short I consider SSJ Goku nothing compared to SSJ Gotenks, while SSJ 3 Post RoSaT Gotenks ends up being almost 4 times stronger than Goku, going by the rule that SSJ 3 draws one's hidden power out to its limits meaning different boosts depending on character.