Suppose Goku hadn't been the one to fight Yakkon

[Fox666]

Doesn't make sense for me. =/ Pui-pui is weaker than base Vegeta, but how strong is base Vegeta? He has a plenty of millions in battle powers.

While Vegeta was clearly dominant, Pui-pui took a lot of hits from Vegeta and was still alive. So I think it's unlikely that the dude had just 18,000 of battle power.

Besides, if Kaioshin, who can defeat Freeza in one blow, thinks he must fight along the saiyans to defeat Yakon, so Yakon should certainly be many times stronger than Freeza, don't?

[Piccolo Daimao]

While Pui-pui was weaker, it's not like his body would fall apart from a punch from Vegeta. He took a lot of hits from Vegeta and was still alive. So I think it's unlikely that the dude had just 18,000 of battle power.

We really don't have much to base his power on. Vegeta could've torn his body apart with one hit, yet he didn't. He wasn't straining when he fought Pui-Pui and was beating him up easily, so it's likely that he was holding back. All we know for sure is that he's much weaker than Vegeta.

As for Yakon, we don't have that much to base his power on either. In his initial scuffle with Goku, he slashed his shirt, but Goku was taken by surprise since he expected him to be slow due to his size. And afterwards, when Goku kicked Yakon in the face, Yakon didn't expect Goku to be able to track his movements in the dark. Gohan did want to step in when he thought SSj was off-boundsthough, so make of that what you will. Stronger than Freeza sounds like a good estimate, though.

[Fox666]

He is weaker, for sure. But I just don't think he is 1,000 times weaker than Vegeta. He could still resist to Vegeta hits.



Of course perception of power is pure speculation, so I can't "prove" that Pui-pui is not 1,000 weaker than vegeta.....

[Piccolo Daimao]

He is weaker, for sure. But I just don't think he is 1,000 times weaker than Vegeta.

Of course perception of power is pure speculation, so I can't "prove" that Pui-pui is not 1,000 weaker than vegeta.....

Fair enough. I'm just saying we don't have much to go on, so no-one's right nor wrong. Unless someone says Pui-Pui's as strong as Bulma or something like that.

[dbgtFO]

Besides, if Kaioshin, who can defeat Freeza in one blow, thinks he must fight along the saiyans to defeat Yakon, so Yakon should certainly be many times stronger than Freeza, don't?

I believe, that a person completely controlled by Babidi doesn't emit ki similar to how Goku was unable to sense any life from Spopowitch, so Kaioshin would be unable to sense anything from Yakon and just base his power on the speed he demonstrated against Goku.

And he was also very cautious inside the ship anyways, so it was only logical to defeat the enemy together with the others instead of being arrogant and trying to do it alone, when the fate of the universe is at stake.

Also Dabra and Babidi totally disregard Kaioshin's power, even when Pui Pui is the opponent, which probably has something to do with Kaioshin energy not being compatible with Majin Buu's egg.

So the quote about Yakon killing all of them only applies to the base Saiyajins IMO, since that's the problem Babidi addressed before Dabra said:
all << Yakon.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, didn't Bobbodi even say that they can't use energy from Kaioshin or Kibito? And Bobbodi wanted to finish him off himself.

[Senzu_Bean]

Yeah, didn't Bobbodi even say that they can't use energy from Kaioshin or Kibito? And Bobbodi wanted to finish him off himself.

Yes, because they wouldn't enter in the spaceship no matter what. Not because they have a miraculously different type of ki than all other living beings.

[Fox666]

I believe, that a person completely controlled by Babidi doesn't emit ki similar to how Goku was unable to sense any life from Spopowitch, so Kaioshin would be unable to sense anything from Yakon and just base his power on the speed he demonstrated against Goku.

I suppose that Goku wasn't saying that Spopovitch had no Ki, but that his Ki (or behavior) was strange, like a zombie or so.

Afterall, Piccolo and the others could felt Vegeta Ki while he was fighting Majin Boo...

And he was also very cautious inside the ship anyways, so it was only logical to defeat the enemy together with the others instead of being arrogant and trying to do it alone, when the fate of the universe is at stake.

But didn't Kaioshin knew Yakon already? He even mentions that "the demon beast Yakon eats light energy"

While there can be some interpretation from some lines, I believe that the repetitive mentions of Yakon power plus Kaioshin response suggests that Yakon was much stronger than Kaioshin (and I should mention that Kaioshin said they should fight togheder before the lights turned off) and by consequence far stronger than Freeza.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, didn't Bobbodi even say that they can't use energy from Kaioshin or Kibito? And Bobbodi wanted to finish him off himself.

Yes, because they wouldn't enter in the spaceship no matter what. Not because they have a miraculously different type of ki than all other living beings.

Oh. Because someone on this forum told me something about Bobbodi needing pure energy to resurrect Boo and that Kaioshin and Kibito may not have it.

And he was also very cautious inside the ship anyways, so it was only logical to defeat the enemy together with the others instead of being arrogant and trying to do it alone, when the fate of the universe is at stake.

But didn't Kaioshin knew Yakon already? He even mentions that "the demon beast Yakon eats light energy"

While there can be some interpretation from some lines, I believe that the repetitive mentions of Yakon power plus Kaioshin response suggests that Yakon was much stronger than Kaioshin (and I should mention that Kaioshin said they should fight togheder before the lights turned off) and by consequence far stronger than Freeza.

Just to play devil's advocate, Kaioshin wanted them all to fight Pui-Pui too, saying that he shouldn't underestimate them, and that "the warriors Bobbodi have collected are-", but then Goku interrupts him, saying Vegeta'll be fine. Couldn't it be more that he's cautious about Bobbodi's minions, knowing how fearsome his magic is? After all, he may not know how strong Yakon's become after being powered up by Bobbodi's magic.

[dbgtFO]

I believe, that a person completely controlled by Babidi doesn't emit ki similar to how Goku was unable to sense any life from Spopowitch, so Kaioshin would be unable to sense anything from Yakon and just base his power on the speed he demonstrated against Goku.

I suppose that Goku wasn't saying that Spopovitch had no Ki, but that his Ki (or behavior) was strange, like a zombie or so.

Afterall, Piccolo and the others could felt Vegeta Ki while he was fighting Majin Boo...

Vegeta was not completely controlled by Babidi though...

And he was also very cautious inside the ship anyways, so it was only logical to defeat the enemy together with the others instead of being arrogant and trying to do it alone, when the fate of the universe is at stake.

But didn't Kaioshin knew Yakon already? He even mentions that "the demon beast Yakon eats light energy"

While there can be some interpretation from some lines, I believe that the repetitive mentions of Yakon power plus Kaioshin response suggests that Yakon was much stronger than Kaioshin (and I should mention that Kaioshin said they should fight togheder before the lights turned off) and by consequence far stronger than Freeza.

Yes, Kaioshin knew some things about Yakon, like his ability to digest light, but I believe he only heard rumours of his existence before actually meeting him.

Yes, because they wouldn't enter in the spaceship no matter what. Not because they have a miraculously different type of ki than all other living beings.

Oh. Because someone on this forum told me something about Bobbodi needing pure energy to resurrect Boo and that Kaioshin and Kibito may not have it or something.

Basically that could be an explanation, since they are holy beings after all.

[Fox666]

About the energy discussion...

Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”

Well, sounds for me that Kaioshin and Kibito energies don't serve for them.

Just to play devil's advocate, Kaioshin wanted them all to fight Pui-Pui too, saying that he shouldn't underestimate them, and that "the warriors Bobbodi have collected are-", but then Goku interrupts him, saying Vegeta'll be fine.

The only line in the Strength Checker that I can find about Kaioshin regarding Pui-pui strength is this:

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P5.2
Kaioshin: “You mustn’t underestimate you opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes then his allies!”

Taking in consideration that in Kaioshin's mind Vegeta & Co. are weaker than him even as Super Saiyans. So it's easy to imagine why Kaioshin was suspicious about Vegeta going out without even turning Super Saiyan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Taking in consideration that in Kaioshin's mind Vegeta & Co. are weaker than him even as Super Saiyans.

Why do you think that?

[dbgtFO]

Taking in consideration that in Kaioshin's mind Vegeta & Co. are weaker than him even as Super Saiyans.

Why do you think that?

Because Kaioshin only commented on the Saiyajins' power having far exceeded him, after Kibito's revival.

So Gohan's relaxed SSJ 2 at the 25th TB was not above Kaioshin(or not by that much), while Gohan going all out against Dabra and against Majin Buu's egg far surpassed Kaioshin.

Basically the chart would look like this:
Base Saiyajins <<< Gohan relaxed SSJ 2 < Kaioshin << Gohan going all out(either SSJ 1 or 2, it doesn't matter).

So Kaioshin who doesn't know how powerful Babidi's warriors are and previosly stated, he might not win against Babidi and co. thinks that base Saiyajins so far weaker than him shouldn't stand a chance, since he doesn't think he'd stand a chance and he's beyond, what he felt from Gohan.

[Fox666]

Overall Kaioshin underestimated the saiyans a lot

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P7.5
Kaioshin: “…In-in this case…If I had known that there were people like you guys, who though human greatly surpassed my power…Th-then would have been that method too…”

[Son_Gohan]

I believe, that a person completely controlled by Babidi doesn't emit ki similar to how Goku was unable to sense any life from Spopowitch, so Kaioshin would be unable to sense anything from Yakon and just base his power on the speed he demonstrated against Goku.

I'd question the validity of that Viz line; if anyone can provide more clarification with an original translation feel free to share it.

But for that idea to work, they would have been incapable of gauging Dabura's strength as well. It doesn't comply. I don't think the case was that Spopovich & Yamu weren't emitting any Ki at all, since Goku only remarks on Spopovichs' Ki during his match with Videl and not initially, when gathering first impressions of them.

Yes, because they wouldn't enter in the spaceship no matter what. Not because they have a miraculously different type of ki than all other living beings.

Even after being aware of Kaioshin's presence within the ship, the Saiyans' energy are still the only ones stated as being desired.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Taking in consideration that in Kaioshin's mind Vegeta & Co. are weaker than him even as Super Saiyans.

Why do you think that?

Because Kaioshin only commented on the Saiyajins' power having far exceeded him, after Kibito's revival.

So Gohan's relaxed SSJ 2 at the 25th TB was not above Kaioshin(or not by that much), while Gohan going all out against Dabra and against Majin Buu's egg far surpassed Kaioshin.

Basically the chart would look like this:
Base Saiyajins <<< Gohan relaxed SSJ 2 < Kaioshin << Gohan going all out(either SSJ 1 or 2, it doesn't matter).

So Kaioshin who doesn't know how powerful Babidi's warriors are and previosly stated, he might not win against Babidi and co. thinks that base Saiyajins so far weaker than him shouldn't stand a chance, since he doesn't think he'd stand a chance and he's beyond, what he felt from Gohan.

Oh, OK. I always thought of relaxed SSj2 Gohan at the 25th Budokai being stronger than Kaioshin. But you're right, he only commented on the Saiyans' power having far exceeded him after Kibito's revival.

[dbgtFO]

I believe, that a person completely controlled by Babidi doesn't emit ki similar to how Goku was unable to sense any life from Spopowitch, so Kaioshin would be unable to sense anything from Yakon and just base his power on the speed he demonstrated against Goku.

I'd question the validity of that Viz line; if anyone can provide more clarification with an original translation feel free to share it.

But for that idea to work, they would have been incapable of gauging Dabura's strength as well. It doesn't comply. I don't think the case was that Spopovich & Yamu weren't emitting any Ki at all, since Goku only remarks on Spopovichs' Ki during his match with Videl and not initially, when gathering first impressions of them.

That was actually a line from this Herms' quote:

Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P4.4
Context: as Videl fights Spopovitch
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
Note: ‘life’, in this case is seiki, written with the kanji for ‘life’ and ‘ki’.

And Dabra would simply need to perform at a level similar to Cell just like how Vegeta realized that #19, a guy who has no ki, wouldn't be able to do shit to him, when he saw #19's performance against Goku.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Talking of which, I wonder why Vegeta said that Kibito was incompetent for being killed by Dabra, when he's around Cell's level.

[Savage68]

Herms said a while back that Goku couldn't sense any "life ki" or something from Spopovich; it wasn't just "ki."

[dbgtFO]

Talking of which, I wonder why Vegeta said that Kibito was incompetent for being killed by Dabra, when he's around Cell's level.

That's because "around Cell's level" means as strong as Cell in egg form.

Seriously I don't know. It seems that even though Dabra flew incredibly fast, a base Saiyajin should have been able to react before he reached them, similar to how you can evade a car coming straight at you without actually being faster, than the car.
Or maybe Vegeta just referred to Dabra spending so much time to charge his beam, giving anyone enough time to react or something...

Herms said a while back that Goku couldn't sense any "life ki" or something from Spopovich; it wasn't just "ki."

Yeah, I know. The quote also clearly says that it's life and not only ki, but I still think, that they just don't emit ki at all.