We'll never get that 2D fighter we've been dreaming of

[Jaruka]

That is what I mean, they lost the rights to America. Namco can not use their engine, character models and so on of any Dimps game. They only have access to its characters since those belong to Toei which is why people like SSJ3 Broly can be on a Spike game despite Dimps making him first and Teincha a possibility. While Atari had the rights, they leased such things to Namco well, technically Dimps and Namco would work it out but with Dimps boss out of the fray, its too much of a legal hassle at this point. Unless something is worked out, entertaining a BL2 is a fools errand at this point.

Right now I feel the need to point this out:

America =/= the world.

Atari sold the rights and guess who they went to? The company that commissions these games in the first place. Atari never had any part in the process other than the distribution of the games in North America. The rest of the world always had their games sold to them by Bandai, the company that commissions and hires the developers to make the games. Atari doesn't own anything anymore and to be fair they never did. For Burst Limit 2 to happen all that needs to happen is Dimps gets hired or Bandai could slap the name on whatever they want.

I reiterate: Atari does not and never did hire Dimps or Spike. Atari had no power. Atari was just a distributor.

[Saimaroimaru]

And yet you misunderstand again. Atari owns the trademark to the Burst Limit name and logo. A sequel cannot be made without Atari approval and Atari can't approve it unless they get the rights to dragon ball again. The only way around it would be to create a sequel with a different name and logo and no Bust Limit 2 doesn't is a name to get around it.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

And yet you misunderstand again. Atari owns the trademark to the Burst Limit name and logo. A sequel cannot be made without Atari approval and Atari can't approve it unless they get the rights to dragon ball again. The only way around it would be to create a sequel with a different name and logo and no Bust Limit 2 doesn't is a name to get around it.

As has already been said, Atari was the publisher for the games, but ONLY in North America. Bandai still published the exact same games in the other countries they were distributed in, so it isn't like Namdai doesn't have the rights to everything. Atari sold their rights to the franchise, meaning the only influence they should have on the series is perhaps getting a small piece of the sales from the games they had a hand in that are still out on the market (if Namdai didn't pay them a compensation fee for anything of theirs that might be sold after the license exchange). Nothing else should matter now as far as I'm aware...

[Saimaroimaru]

And yet you misunderstand again. Atari owns the trademark to the Burst Limit name and logo. A sequel cannot be made without Atari approval and Atari can't approve it unless they get the rights to dragon ball again. The only way around it would be to create a sequel with a different name and logo and no Bust Limit 2 doesn't is a name to get around it.

As has already been said, Atari was the publisher for the games, but ONLY in North America. Bandai still published the exact same games in the other countries they were distributed in, so it isn't like Namdai doesn't have the rights to everything. Atari sold their rights to the franchise, meaning the only influence they should have on the series is perhaps getting a small piece of the sales from the games they had a hand in that are still out on the market (if Namdai didn't pay them a compensation fee for anything of theirs that might be sold after the license exchange). Nothing else should matter now as far as I'm aware...

All I am saying is that the only way Bl is getting a sequel is if they remade the sequel something else or Atari saids okay.Atari maybe nothing now for the DBZ franchise as a whole but the fact remains is that the BL logo and name is theirs till otherwise said.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

All I am saying is that the only way Bl is getting a sequel is if they remade the sequel something else or Atari saids okay.Atari maybe nothing now for the DBZ franchise as a whole but the fact remains is that the BL logo and name is theirs till otherwise said.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Atari no longer has the distribution/publication rights to the Dragon Ball franchise. Atari's North American website currently lacks any references to the Dragon Ball franchise, games, trademarks or otherwise. When Namdai reclaimed the franchise in North America, they gained the trademarks as well.

[Saimaroimaru]

Yes they lost the rights to the franchise, we covered that already but the fact remains that they still have the Bl logo and name in their hands.

The point being that if the contract does not explicitly state, "if you do not renew your license to the franchise, all associated trademarks revert to the parent company Shueisha or whoever" then the trademarks are not transferred. Pull me up the part of the contract that covers that particular detail, and then I will be convinced. Till then, Atari still has the BL logo in their possession. The only real way to know if you work in Namco legal department. Thats just the trade mark for the logo. There still is the matter of the source code which follows copyright law so unless you work in Atari's legal department you don't know the agreements made concerning the Bl source code between Atari and Dimps.

Generally trademarks only transfer between companies when one company purchases another - or when one company purchases the rights to the trademarks, not when one company "loses" the rights.

Atari didn't comply with Shueisha's demands when Shueisha changed the terms of licensing the dragon ball franchise, so Atari lost the rights for the franchise. Normally the contracts don't transfer all dragon ball trademarks from Atari to Shueisha in the event that Atari fails to renew their license but if Shueisha managed to work that into the contract before Atari agreed to it, then it's possible. In the normal situation, Atari wouldn't transfer its trademarks away from its own company.Either way, Namco wouldn't own the source code unless they wrote it into the contract stating that the source code belongs to Namco but we won't know unless we work in their legal departments.

If Atari sold the rights to the distribution and all of their trademarks with it to Namco then it would be possible that Namco could produce a Burst Limit game but till then we really just don't know.

[Anonymous Friend]

The only thing Atari had was the lisence to sell a game in a specific region of the world. They held no trademark on any images or logos or anything. The developers made the game. The publishers provided the funds to make the game. The distibutors are the ones allowed to sell the product. Sometimes they are one in the same, sometimes they are separate entities.

Unless you have proof that Atari had any kind of creative input when the developers were designing the the game.

A good comparison would be television networks and how they may air a program but sometimes have no input whatsoever. TV spots even most times refer back to the show production companies.

[Saimaroimaru]

The only thing Atari had was the lisence to sell a game in a specific region of the world. They held no trademark on any images or logos or anything. The developers made the game. The publishers provided the funds to make the game. The distibutors are the ones allowed to sell the product. Sometimes they are one in the same, sometimes they are separate entities.

Unless you have proof that Atari had any kind of creative input when the developers were designing the the game.

A good comparison would be television networks and how they may air a program but sometimes have no input whatsoever. TV spots even most times refer back to the show production companies.

Creative input =/= owning a license. Otherwise they wouldn't have contracted Dimps to make the games in the first place. Fact is that the source code and bl ownership is unknown right now and unless the contract saids otherwise they are owned by Atari.

[VegettoEX]

Fact is that the source code and bl ownership is unknown right now and unless the contract saids otherwise they are owned by Atari.

No, they wouldn't be. They'd still be owned in the most primary of senses by Namco-Bandai.

I don't see how on Earth you can even make an argument that Atari would own any of that -- they were nothing more than a sub-license holder that distributed the game. See the continued use of the Budokai engine (created for use in games that Atari distributed, not to mention distributed in North America before Japan) in the Bakuretsu Impact games (games released exclusively in Japan that had no involvement what-so-ever from Atari) for the direct comparison.

Then there's also DragonBall Evolution on the PSP. Atari would be losing the license in months (and probably already had at that point), the game was developed with the Budokai engine, and was distributed worldwide by Namco-Bandai.

I mean, geeze. Burst Limit was created IN JAPAN by Dimps FOR Namco-Bandai. All Atari did was take it and handle the English translation and distribution. They don't own the underlying product in any way.

[Anonymous Friend]

All that Atatri's license said was that they were allowed to sell the game in North America. Heck, FUNi has a bigger say in any Dragonball game's release than Atari ever did.

[Saimaroimaru]

Fact is that the source code and bl ownership is unknown right now and unless the contract saids otherwise they are owned by Atari.

No, they wouldn't be. They'd still be owned in the most primary of senses by Namco-Bandai.

I don't see how on Earth you can even make an argument that Atari would own any of that -- they were nothing more than a sub-license holder that distributed the game. See the continued use of the Budokai engine (created for use in games that Atari distributed, not to mention distributed in North America before Japan) in the Bakuretsu Impact games (games released exclusively in Japan that had no involvement what-so-ever from Atari) for the direct comparison.

Then there's also DragonBall Evolution on the PSP. Atari would be losing the license in months (and probably already had at that point), the game was developed with the Budokai engine, and was distributed worldwide by Namco-Bandai.

I mean, geeze. Burst Limit was created IN JAPAN by Dimps FOR Namco-Bandai. All Atari did was take it and handle the English translation and distribution. They don't own the underlying product in any way.

Oh? Can you pull me of the part of the contract that proves this? Sorry I don't go by word of mouth.

[VegettoEX]

Of course I can't pull up the contract. You know I can't. And I know that you can't. You can't pull the exact same card in reverse and expect it to be a sufficient argument.

All we can go on is logic and things that actually happened. The Budokai engine, including in-game artwork and assets, continued to be used long past the point of Atari being relevant to the franchise. The Sparking! engine (not the Raging Blast engine) was adapted into a PSP game that itself used the same "Tenkaichi" branding under Namco-Bandai globally as was used under the prior Atari regime.

What more do you need?

Atari was a distributor with the franchise, and doesn't inherently own anything about it, other than perhaps things associated with games that they had created (see: Legacy of Goku), and even then I'd wager than the purest rights still revert to Namco-Bandai under whatever sub-contract they had.

[MetaMoss]

And yet you misunderstand again. Atari owns the trademark to the Burst Limit name and logo. A sequel cannot be made without Atari approval and Atari can't approve it unless they get the rights to dragon ball again. The only way around it would be to create a sequel with a different name and logo and no Bust Limit 2 doesn't is a name to get around it.

Japanese Burst Limit Cover:

-_-

[Xyex]

I always wished that they would convert the Sparking engine to have multiple enemies at once and make it an adevnture beat 'em up style game.

This.

The fighting games are nice, but I've seen a bazillion of them now, and I would love a new console RPG but that's unlikely. Sagas was a nice break from the current 'standard' and something I still pop in on occasion simply for that reason. But, damnit, I want to play a GOOD Sagas-like game. And the Sparking! engine is the perfect building block for that.

Creative input =/= owning a license. Otherwise they wouldn't have contracted Dimps to make the games in the first place. Fact is that the source code and bl ownership is unknown right now and unless the contract saids otherwise they are owned by Atari.

Um, no, they're not. Atari owned nothing except distribution rights in North America. That's it. The Burst Limit name/logo is owned by Dimps, as is the source code.

[Saimaroimaru]

Of course I can't pull up the contract. You know I can't. And I know that you can't. You can't pull the exact same card in reverse and expect it to be a sufficient argument.

All we can go on is logic and things that actually happened. The Budokai engine, including in-game artwork and assets, continued to be used long past the point of Atari being relevant to the franchise. The Sparking! engine (not the Raging Blast engine) was adapted into a PSP game that itself used the same "Tenkaichi" branding under Namco-Bandai globally as was used under the prior Atari regime.

What more do you need?

Atari was a distributor with the franchise, and doesn't inherently own anything about it, other than perhaps things associated with games that they had created (see: Legacy of Goku), and even then I'd wager than the purest rights still revert to Namco-Bandai under whatever sub-contract they had.

When you pull up the contract and show me, I will be convinced. For now it is a agree to disagree.

[VegettoEX]

When you pull up the contract and show me, I will be convinced. For now it is a agree to disagree.

Say what?

But you're not just "agreeing to disagree". You've flat-out stated that the case is that Atari holds the license to these things. Without providing any evidence. Or history. Or logic. You're just saying it, and expecting that to be enough.

I've provided two concrete examples of things that were developed in Japan when Atari distributed the games that continued to be used despite Atari no longer holding any license to distribute (1: Budokai game engine & assets in Bakuretsu Impact, 2: Tenkaichi game engine & name branding in Tenkaichi Tag Team).

You've said "NUH UH!"... and that's it. That's not effective argument or conversation -- that's slack-jaw-inducing nonsense.

[Saimaroimaru]

When you pull up the contract and show me, I will be convinced. For now it is a agree to disagree.

Say what?

But you're not just "agreeing to disagree". You've flat-out stated that the case is that Atari holds the license to these things. Without providing any evidence. Or history. Or logic. You're just saying it, and expecting that to be enough.

I've provided two concrete examples of things that were developed in Japan when Atari distributed the games that continued to be used despite Atari no longer holding any license to distribute (1: Budokai game engine & assets in Bakuretsu Impact, 2: Tenkaichi game engine & name branding in Tenkaichi Tag Team).

You've said "NUH UH!"... and that's it. That's not effective argument or conversation -- that's slack-jaw-inducing nonsense.

When I see a contract like I said, I will be convinced, that or a sequel to Bl announced. Then I will concede. At this point neither of us is gonna convince the other anyway, so rather than get into a draw out argument where everyone is angst against each other, I am settling for agree to disagree for now, whether you like it or not.Time prove my point as BL becomes and stays a one game band then again things change and they could agree to something and it gets a sequel.

[VegettoEX]

Again, you're not "agreeing to disagree" -- you're flat-out refusing to acknowledge evidence and sticking with your crazy assumptions despite providing no evidence or solid logic of your own. I don't think you know what the quoted phrase actually means.

Come to think of it, the "Tenkaichi" name remains a better example than anything else.

-- NOT ONLY was the actual game engine adapted into a PSP game years after Atari lost the license to distribute games that first used that engine...

-- NOT ONLY was the "Tenkaichi" moniker then used for that game by Namco-Bandai, when it had previously been in use by Atari...

-- BUT NOW Namco-Bandai is considering the possibility of reintroducing the word "Tenkaichi" into the branding of the new console game due out this year.

How is it not clear that, as the primary and worldwide owners of the merchandise for the franchise, the company is free to do what it wants with its property?

[Saimaroimaru]

Again, you're not "agreeing to disagree" -- you're flat-out refusing to acknowledge evidence and sticking with your crazy assumptions despite providing no evidence or solid logic of your own. I don't think you know what the quoted phrase actually means.

Come to think of it, the "Tenkaichi" name remains a better example than anything else.

-- NOT ONLY was the actual game engine adapted into a PSP game years after Atari lost the license to distribute games that first used that engine...

-- NOT ONLY was the "Tenkaichi" moniker then used for that game by Namco-Bandai, when it had previously been in use by Atari...

-- BUT NOW Namco-Bandai is considering the possibility of reintroducing the word "Tenkaichi" into the branding of the new console game due out this year.

How is it not clear that, as the primary and worldwide owners of the merchandise for the franchise, the company is free to do what it wants with its property?

I agree to disagree. Good day.

[The Tori-bot]

How can you still be convinced that Atari own the Burst Limit name and logo after metamoss's post (which you conveniently ignored)? It just showed beyond any shadow of a doubt that the game, its name, and its logo were created in Japan with absolutely no involvement from Atari. They don't own them any more than I own a nunchuck-wielding kitten which can shoot lasers from its eyes. No matter how much I would like to.