How strong do you think base GT Kid Goku is?

[Hellspawn28]

GT takes 15 years after the Buu saga and he already pwn both Cell & Freeza in his base form. He should be stronger then SSj2 Buu Saga Goku in his base form due to all of the training that he had in the 10 year time skip after Buu and the five year time skip when training with Buu.

[Savage68]

Usually, I couldn't care less about how powerful a character is, but in this case I'll make an exception. I say GT Goku is only marginally stronger than Goku in the Boo arc... because I like it better that way.

[CatouttaHell]

That doesn't work. Goku actually remarks and is surprised Sigma fused Rildo got as strong as he did. In other words... he wasn't expecting it. Lets not forget that Rildo actually "merged" with the Sigma force. How is Goku going to sense through a fusion, before the fusion has even happened? Can't recall anyone ever doing that.

Goku kicked Hyper Mega Rild's arse and then said something along the lines of him covering himself in trash and that that wasn't his true power. His true power was Metal Rild, and he didn't have any parts of Mega Cannon Sigma on him nor did he use any of their powers.

Either way you want to think it:
SSJ Goku > Sigma Fused Rildo > What Goku thought of General Rildo > Majin Boo(unspecified version) >?< Goku > General Rildo

...Rildo still has to be greater than Boo in his first state, even if you think Rildo was holding back in his fight. Let's not forget the fact that Base Goku was also stated to be holding back in that fight...unless Rildo can pull a Kuririn and sense through to transformations.

Well it's not impossible for Rild to be able to sense Goku's transformation. Unless you believe Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo, Dabura and Babidi apparently both sensed the power of the Super Saiya-jins through their base states. IIRC it seemed that Rild wasn't too surprised at SSjin Goku's power and likely expected it.

Even without that quote, not sure how Base GT Goku can be 72-75 million anyway. We see him effortlessly defeat Cell and Freeza, and even SSJ Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby (baby virus actually makes them stronger). He's also stated to be stronger than KibitoShin.

Well I know this doesn't fly with most people, but I just ignore those things for the sake of keeping my GT levels coherent. Stuff like Base Goku > SSjin Vegeta > SSjin Gohan > Base Gohan > SSjin Goten is absolute nonsense and doesn't even make sense with other scenes surrounding it.

I just don't see any implications of Base/SSjin Goku being worlds above Base/SSjin Trunks, Gohan, Goten, etc except for a few, very brief Toei Hax scenes. In the Super #17 Arc we see clearly that Base Trunks is <<< #17. There's no way the difference between Goku is the difference between being much weaker than #17 and being much stronger than a powered up Cell. I view nonsense like that the same as I do Videl surviving hits from Broly and Hildegarn. Toei wanted to save Goku going Super Saiya-jin and higher for Vegeta-Baby and Super #17 to make them look better and thus haxed Base Goku for a few scenes.

Being off screen, Trunks could have been a SSJ when he killed Mutchi-Mutchi. It was also a surprise attack. Mutchi gave Goku trouble due to his object manipulation, and Ki absorption.

I never thought about Trunks using Super Saiya-jin. There were no signs that he used it, but then again in Toei World people go in and out of Super Saiya-jin like it's nothing.

Adding powers to a vessel is apparently much more than just the sum of their powers. This seems to be the lazy way Toei tries and boosts Goku's power(ex: Half beaten Piccolo + battered Goku > Super Namekian Slug, half dead base saiyans + Piccolo + battered SSJ Goku > Broly, etc.)

Yeah, true. Still I just feel like Goku getting huge boosts from them if they're THAT weak to be ridiculous. It'd be like if Goku got the power to beat Broly from Roshi, Kuririn, and Oolong lol. That's just one random example of how I feel the Toei Hax scenes like SSjin Gohan vs. Base Goku spit in the face of the rest of the story. Unless Toei goes by a 1.5x SSjin boost it just makes no sense to me, but that's just my opinion. It's a common Toei idea to have Base Saiya-jins doing impossible shit and to treat their bases like their full powers. Base Vegeta takes a handful of hits from Chibi Boo and is shocked that he can't beat him, implying that his base is his true power or something. The movies and Z filler are filled with nonsense like that and people automatically ignore it, so I don't see why GT is different.

Well, at least the worms can't one shot them because they don't use Ki. lol

You don't need Ki to one-shot somebody. Though without Ki they'd never defeat Boo.

[goldsaint13]

Technically GT is not a filler. But I see were you are coming from. It feels like a filler and Toei... well, I think they didn't care much about the plotholes they created and what not.

They are morons...

They show to not having understood anything about Dragon Ball universe rules...

Stronger than Gotenks from Z.

That is something THE REAL Goku won't reach neither in 10.000 years...

Base Goku is stated/shown to be stronger then Majin Boo( who I attribute as Mr Boo/ or even Fat Boo. Doesn't really matter), KibitoShin, SSJ Baby Goten and Gohan, and a powered up Cell and Freeza. I don't exactly like it. But it is what it is. With all that in consideration...In terms of Z, I'd still him a decent amount weaker than Post RoSaT SSJ Gotenks. That's extremely unnaturally powerful if you ask me.

It's just a filler-like nonsense...

We saw this in Dragonball all the time. So I can't say GT power levels are completely in the impossible.

They are.

Goku's base form reached more or less it's limit during Cell saga...

He said to Vegeta: "You can train further on in the RoSaT because you can get stronger... I can't instead!"


Buu saga Goku is more or less the same as Cell saga Goku in base and SSJ1 forms... He only got SSJ2 and SSJ3 as real boosts...

Even in the cyborg arc, you don't exactly see Goku boasting he could halt a villain stronger then Freeza in his normal state. Or Buu arc Base/ SSJs being implied to surpass Perfect Cell.

He could never do neither of them, even with a super high-intensed training of thousand years...

To defeat Freezer he should turn SSJ1 and to defeat Cell he should turn SSJ2... There's no way otherwise...

Only a fused character can have those feats...

GT creators mistook Goku for Gotenks, maybe because of his height...

Not to mention how much trouble those SPACE WORMS gave Goku and co. Can you imagine Freeza, Cell, Bojack, or Chibi Boo defeating the Z-Senshi and then having their universal conquest/destruction ended when a random space worm one-shots them?

A good example to show how screwed-up GT is...

[Kaboom]

Nobody will blame you if you want to ignore the Super 17 arc. Most of GT is already confusing power-scaling wise, but that arc just... really brought it to a whole new level of "WTF is going on here?"

[CatouttaHell]

Nobody will blame you if you want to ignore the Super 17 arc. Most of GT is already confusing power-scaling wise, but that arc just... really brought it to a whole new level of "WTF is going on here?"

Besides Goku's fight with Cell and Freeza I really don't see the problem. My numbers for it correlate perfectly with the rest of my GT numbers. Super Oob is simply a weakling. He was around Base Goku before he fused with Mr. Boo and even then there's nothing that says he is anything but trash to guys like Super #17. The only thing that remotely suggests the opposite is his fight with Vegeta-Baby and Vegeta-Baby toys with all of his opponents so it only seems like he's SSjin 3 tier (hell, even NORMAL Oob did well against him.) Don't forget Oob had to resort to being turned into a candy and eaten just to do something; he knew he was outmatched.

Add to that the fact that SSjin 2 Vegeta only did crappily against Super #17 because he went SSjin 2 after he was already very beaten up and exhausted, and the fact that Super #17 is >> SSjin Goku and was only toying with him at first and I don't see what the problem with that arc is. The only thing I had to ignore in it is Base Goku vs. Cell and Freeza and that's only because I don't think any Base Saiya-jins surpassed Freeza... which I admit is just personal bias.

[lash]

Goku kicked Hyper Mega Rild's arse and then said something along the lines of him covering himself in trash and that that wasn't his true power. His true power was Metal Rild, and he didn't have any parts of Mega Cannon Sigma on him nor did he use any of their powers.

When he transformed into his metal state, he actually did still have the Mega Cannon Sigma on him. He rejuvenated them, and then coated them in metal. He's still using their power. Obviously with Rildo grinning & laughing instead of being worried that he currently stood no chance against SSJ Goku...Goku was able to deduce that he had to have something else up his sleeve. It still doesn't take the fact away that Sigma fused Rildo was stronger than what Goku thought Rildo would be. In other words, when Goku stated he surpassed Boo...he had to have been talking about Rildo's first state.

Well it's not impossible for Rild to be able to sense Goku's transformation. Unless you believe Base Saiya-jins > Piccolo, Dabura and Babidi apparently both sensed the power of the Super Saiya-jins through their base states. IIRC it seemed that Rild wasn't too surprised at SSjin Goku's power and likely expected it.

Of course it's impossible. When has anyone ever done that? You don't see Kuririn, Piccolo, or Vegeta sensing through to SSJ3 Goku's power in the Boo arc do you? The Dabra example doesn't hold. Considering both Babidi and Dabra didn't even get the power of the base Saiyan's right anyway(thinking Pui Pui could take on all of them Kaioshin included...when Vegeta can solo him with zero effort). You can safely ignore them...or assume they only felt the suppressed power of everyone. Rildo was obviously surprised... and either way had no idea what he was up against. He thought he stood a chance just by wrapping the Sigma Force to him. His comments before he ascends to his ultimate state show that he obviously wasn't expecting Goku to be that powerful.

Even without that quote, not sure how Base GT Goku can be 72-75 million anyway. We see him effortlessly defeat Cell and Freeza, and even SSJ Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby (baby virus actually makes them stronger). He's also stated to be stronger than KibitoShin.

Well I know this doesn't fly with most people, but I just ignore those things for the sake of keeping my GT levels coherent. Stuff like Base Goku > SSjin Vegeta > SSjin Gohan > Base Gohan > SSjin Goten is absolute nonsense and doesn't even make sense with other scenes surrounding it.

Good answer. I wonder if I should ignore pieces in DBZ that I think don't make sense to me too. Such as SSJ2 Gohan and Cell only leaving a crater on Earth when they have solar system destroying powers. Saiyan arc Vegeta could destroy the earth...yet a Big Bang Attack from SSJ Vegeta doesn't. Perhaps they are all at Saiyan arc levels, and I should re-construct my thoughts to reflect that since it seems like absolute nonsense that doesn't make sense with other scenes surrounding it: Cui > Saiyan arc Vegeta = Pure Boo = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Vegeta

I just don't see any implications of Base/SSjin Goku being worlds above Base/SSjin Trunks, Gohan, Goten, etc except for a few, very brief Toei Hax scenes. In the Super #17 Arc we see clearly that Base Trunks is <<< #17. There's no way the difference between Goku is the difference between being much weaker than #17 and being much stronger than a powered up Cell. I view nonsense like that the same as I do Videl surviving hits from Broly and Hildegarn. Toei wanted to save Goku going Super Saiya-jin and higher for Vegeta-Baby and Super #17 to make them look better and thus haxed Base Goku for a few scenes.

Goku has several scenes and several statements that prove he's as powerful as he's depicted. Not just one silly Hirudegarn hits Videl, or Pure Boo/Cell hit Mr. Satan type scene. I mean if the scene of beating those very people(SSJ Gohan/Goten) doesn't count as being stronger than them...I don't think there's much left I can argue about to you.

Yeah, true. Still I just feel like Goku getting huge boosts from them if they're THAT weak to be ridiculous. It'd be like if Goku got the power to beat Broly from Roshi, Kuririn, and Oolong lol.

But that's essentially what happened. Goku was getting power from folks who were half dead. Essentially with something like .005 as their battle power at that moment. Considering that... using 3 fully powered SSJs and Pan-chan, I don't think it's crazy to think they could refill a SSJ4.

That's just one random example of how I feel the Toei Hax scenes like SSjin Gohan vs. Base Goku spit in the face of the rest of the story. Unless Toei goes by a 1.5x SSjin boost it just makes no sense to me, but that's just my opinion. It's a common Toei idea to have Base Saiya-jins doing impossible shit and to treat their bases like their full powers. Base Vegeta takes a handful of hits from Chibi Boo and is shocked that he can't beat him, implying that his base is his true power or something. The movies and Z filler are filled with nonsense like that and people automatically ignore it, so I don't see why GT is different.

Because GT isn't filler. It's a separate series. If you're going to argue about it...you better except everything it throws at you. Otherwise you're just nitpicking and disregarding what suits your already preset beliefs on how YOU think the series should be run. You can't do a bigger fallacy than that. I could easily argue Oolong > Super Vegetto in Dragonball using such a fallacy.

You don't need Ki to one-shot somebody. Though without Ki they'd never defeat Boo.

How would space worms one-shot Freeza or Cell? Tackle them?

It's just a filler-like nonsense...

No. It is not.

[Zephyr]

The only one he spends any significant amount of time in base against is Si Xing Long, and he spends most of that "fight" running away and hiding. Then they have their typical "You're not using your true power and neither am I" talk.

I think this is one of my major problems with GT, and what contributed to my confusion on the power-scaling. During both the Baby arc and the Evil Dragons arc, there's a dire situation at hand, time is of the essence, and yet Goku is simply fooling around in his weakest form as opposed to getting things over with.

Now on one hand, this does seem to be a case of how others have mentioned, Goku entertaining himself after being utterly bored from the lack of any opponents for at least a decade, and fits quite well with his Saiyan behavior of wanting to have a fun fight rather than actually finish his opponents quickly.

On the other hand however, I would expect Goku to realize the urgency of both situations, and quickly get the tasks done. It seems to be the result of another thing many have pointed out in the past, that I agree with: poor execution on Toei's part, in attempts to drag the fights out longer.

[goldsaint13]

Nobody will blame you if you want to ignore the Super 17 arc. Most of GT is already confusing power-scaling wise, but that arc just... really brought it to a whole new level of "WTF is going on here?"

Actually Super 17 arc messes up even power levels established in GT itself...

Super 17 had gotten stronger than even Majuub that was the strongest fighter after SSJ4 Goku by far (in the likes of SSJ4 Goku > Majuub >>>>>>>>> the others) and then Super 17 fights with SSJ1 Goku... WTF?!?!

When I say that GT is a mess it's not just to speak...

How would space worms one-shot Freeza or Cell? Tackle them?

Just the imagination of such a scene could make me laugh to death...

[CatouttaHell]

When he transformed into his metal state, he actually did still have the Mega Cannon Sigma on him. He rejuvenated them, and then coated them in metal. He's still using their power. Obviously with Rildo grinning & laughing instead of being worried that he currently stood no chance against SSJ Goku...Goku was able to deduce that he had to have something else up his sleeve. It still doesn't take the fact away that Sigma fused Rildo was stronger than what Goku thought Rildo would be. In other words, when Goku stated he surpassed Boo...he had to have been talking about Rildo's first state.

Goku flat-out stated that Rild wasn't using his full power after he went SSjin. So clearly Goku did somehow see through into his fusion/metal state or whatever. It's not that big of a stretch to say Goku knew this all along and was basing his Mr. Boo comment on that. Metal Rild never showcased any of the powers of Super Mega Cannon Sigma unlike Hyper Mega Rild and to be honest I doubt their power really had any effect on that form. Hyper Mega Rild was the fusion while Metal Rild was pretty much just his true form.

Of course it's impossible. When has anyone ever done that? You don't see Kuririn, Piccolo, or Vegeta sensing through to SSJ3 Goku's power in the Boo arc do you? The Dabra example doesn't hold. Considering both Babidi and Dabra didn't even get the power of the base Saiyan's right anyway(thinking Pui Pui could take on all of them Kaioshin included...when Vegeta can solo him with zero effort). You can safely ignore them...or assume they only felt the suppressed power of everyone. Rildo was obviously surprised... and either way had no idea what he was up against. He thought he stood a chance just by wrapping the Sigma Force to him. His comments before he ascends to his ultimate state show that he obviously wasn't expecting Goku to be that powerful.

Kuririn sensed through into Trunks' Super Saiya-jin Third Grade power so it can and has been done before. Plus Rild said "that much I knew, until now you haven't even been putting out half your power" so that implies that he most likely already knew about SSjin Goku's power.

Good answer. I wonder if I should ignore pieces in DBZ that I think don't make sense to me too. Such as SSJ2 Gohan and Cell only leaving a crater on Earth when they have solar system destroying powers. Saiyan arc Vegeta could destroy the earth...yet a Big Bang Attack from SSJ Vegeta doesn't. Perhaps they are all at Saiyan arc levels, and I should re-construct my thoughts to reflect that since it seems like absolute nonsense that doesn't make sense with other scenes surrounding it: Cui > Saiyan arc Vegeta = Pure Boo = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Vegeta

It's Toei World man. You just have to disregard some things. Do you accept that Mr. Satan, Base Goten, Chichi, etc are all powerful enough to take hits from Yi Xing Long and not even go unconscious?

Goku has several scenes and several statements that prove he's as powerful as he's depicted. Not just one silly Hirudegarn hits Videl, or Pure Boo/Cell hit Mr. Satan type scene. I mean if the scene of beating those very people(SSJ Gohan/Goten) doesn't count as being stronger than them...I don't think there's much left I can argue about to you.

So is Base Goku > SSjin Vegeta as well since he had trouble with them? And does Base Goten rival SSjin Vegeta since he gave him trouble? Does Base Trunks rival Yi Xing Long since he actually affected him with a kick and bounced back from a hit from him? Toei World isn't like Toriyama World where you can accept everything that you see because he actually put at least half a thought into it. Base Goku > SSjin Gohan implies Base Goku > SSjin Vegeta as well and that spits in the face of everything Vegeta related in the series.

But that's essentially what happened. Goku was getting power from folks who were half dead. Essentially with something like .005 as their battle power at that moment. Considering that... using 3 fully powered SSJs and Pan-chan, I don't think it's crazy to think they could refill a SSJ4.

Yeah there's no real logical way to interpret three SSjins and Pan-chan refilling SSjin 4 Goku except for just the usual Toei energy-combination nonsense. Though Goku going beyond his limits with the power of the other Saiya-jins added to his base in the Evil Dragons Arc works perfectly without the Base Goku > SSjin Gohan hax. For the former it's just a matter of making something that is ridiculous and impossible at least somewhat less ridiculous and impossible I guess.

Because GT isn't filler. It's a separate series. If you're going to argue about it...you better except everything it throws at you. Otherwise you're just nitpicking and disregarding what suits your already preset beliefs on how YOU think the series should be run. You can't do a bigger fallacy than that. I could easily argue Oolong > Super Vegetto in Dragonball using such a fallacy.

So should I accept Mr. Satan, Chichi, etc taking a hit from Yi Xing Long as well? Or Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby's Gyarikku Hou not being enough to destroy the Earth? Toei doesn't put much thought into feats and statements. And thus quite a few of them are just nonsensical.

How would space worms one-shot Freeza or Cell? Tackle them?

They beat Goku and co around with their own body weight. If they can cause damage to Base Goku and he is Boo tier then logically they'd smash Cell, Freeza, etc to bits.

[goldsaint13]

They beat Goku and co around with their own body weight. If they can cause damage to Base Goku and he is Boo tier then logically they'd smash Cell, Freeza, etc to bits.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!


Wonderful!!!!!!!!



Imagine the Super Saiyans never existed...

Freezer's family was the strongest of the universe 20 years prior to the present...












But space worms eventually trained a lot and turned their strength in the range of billions crushing then Freezer and all his army...



Universe is now ruled by space worms... Even Kaiohshin can't do a thing to defeat them...