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[Piccolo Daimao]

You're stating this like it's fact, when it's not. You've got to stop with this attitude.

Goten was a good sparring partner for freaking Teen Gohan, and a Suppressed SSjin Trunks made #18 piss herself just by firing an uncharged Ki blast. It's really not that hard.

You know, Gohan could've easily been holding back. It's his little brother he's fighting against, after all, and they're only sparring for the 25th TB. Gohan was simply surprised that his brother was so strong. The only thing that the kids' fight against #18 suggests is that they're stronger than #18, at the least. They don't have to be "worlds above" whichever Vegeta from the Cell arc you're talking about.

And I wasn't only talking about your statement on the kids' powers. I was talking about the gravity thing too.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm just going to list all weight/gravity training the characters did through out the story just to hopefully people can see there aren't inconsistencies:

- Goku and Krillin trained with a forty kg turtle shell to overcome the ordinary human level;

- Goku trained with an over one hundred kg suit to match Piccolo's power;

- The Saiyans are used to ten times the gravity of the Earth;

- Goku trained under ten times the gravity of the Earth to match the Saiyan's strength;

- Goku trained under one hundred times the gravity of the Earth to overcome the Saiyans' limits;

- Vegeta trained under three hundred times the gravity of the Earth to overcome his limits and become a Super Saiyan;

- Nobody complains about ten times the gravity of the Earth inside the RoSaT, not even Gohan;

- Goku later trained with weights of eight tons without too much effort and with weights of forty tons while in the air which roughly equals training in six hundred times the gravity of the Earth. He cannot move while in the air with those, unless he goes Super Saiyan;

- Vegeta later can freely move in one hundred and fifty times the gravity of the Earth in Super Saiyan. Trunks barely can handle that same gravity unless he goes Super Saiyan;

- Pui Pui can handle tens times the gravity of the Earth, thinks that is impressive and Vegeta just dances in hip-hop style in front of him;

- I think that is all. I honestly can't see where the inconsistencies are.

Even though Yamcha's clearly much stronger than Goku was when he first landed on Kaio's planet, he still mentions that he can barely stand the gravity, because he isn't used to it.

Honestly that only proves Yamcha is still not strong enough to handle ten times the gravity of the Earth just like Goku wasn't strong enough either. Just because Goku is stronger than Vegeta does that mean he can automatically beat Freeza? I believe not.

[Perfect]

Notice it's never mentioned how long Trunks and Vegeta had been in the gravity. Vegeta had a noticeable sweat in SSJ under it, whereas Trunks was having a hard time walking. Now we can also disregard this for another factor if we want to, seeing that anyone that's strong enough to overcome a certain amount of gravity can still struggle if it's their first time. Gohan entering 10 times the normal amount of gravity was phased by it briefly because of not only that but the thin air. There's nothing inconsistent about gravity in Dragon Ball. Not to mention the only thing that suggests they're stronger than 18 is that silly little blast, which can also be interpreted as they were being dangerous for an area with so many people. If anything I'd place both of them quite a ways under number 18, hell I'd place them around Freeza.

Edit:

Vegeta could have been turning the gravity up as well each time to see what Trunks can do, because evidently Vegeta could obviously handle more.

[Fox666]

You're stating this like it's fact, when it's not. You've got to stop with this attitude.

Goten was a good sparring partner for freaking Teen Gohan, and a Suppressed SSjin Trunks made #18 piss herself just by firing an uncharged Ki blast. It's really not that hard.

You know, Gohan could've easily been holding back. It's his little brother he's fighting against, after all, and they're only sparring for the 25th TB. Gohan was simply surprised that his brother was so strong. The only thing that the kids' fight against #18 suggests is that they're stronger than #18, at the least. They don't have to be "worlds above" whichever Vegeta from the Cell arc you're talking about.

And I wasn't only talking about your statement on the kids' powers. I was talking about the gravity thing too.

But why would you think he was holding back against Goten? The only reason would be to make some sense ouf of the 150G thing.

However we have many instances which show us that Trunks and Goten are not just strong, but close to be strong as the adults are as full-power Super Saiyans.

[Perfect]

Vegeta was under stress from his training session; Gohan was amazed at Goten's strength, nothing more, taken off guard like Vegeta; maybe a type of combination. Already explained the number 18 ordeal. Every instance really just dictates being surprised that such young children are that strong.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

#18 seems to be more worried about herself instead of other people in the area. She's marveling over the incredible destructive power and speed the (held-back) blast had, and barely dodged it at that. A full-power blast likely would've hit her.

[Perfect]

To elaborate further on what I meant, she was surprised they'd use that dangerous of an attack with that many people around. Instinctively she wasn't ready for that kind of fight as it gradually began to get more serious. In fact, she didn't seem at all worried once she found out who they were.

[Fox666]

If they are contantly referred to be super strong, and never told to be weaker than no.18, why would you think they are not super strong and weaker than 18?

Basically you are saying that all instances they match the adults and said to be really strong are exception.

[Perfect]

They're constantly regraded as strong for their age, because they're implausibly strong for their age really. They're also never told to be stronger than 18 either, both weaker and stronger than her are based on speculation, so your point is moot. No, refer to the first sentence of this post.

[Fox666]

They are not called exclusively strong for their ages. Besides they have spared with the adult Super Saiyans, which of course you have an explanation for all cases.

I don't know why you say it is based on speculation. Everything looks like the standard way of Dragon Ball showing that a person is stronger than another.

Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

[Perfect]

Because it is, look what she says, "little squirts", referring to her being surprised such little kids could have that kind of power. She could also be referring to a variety of thing by settling it soon, being the kids could get out of hand and not manage their powers very well, which would result in her own death along with many others (Meaning they'd go out of control while she wouldn't at the risk of actually killing someone). Now, I don't see 18 caring about anyone there, I just don't see her trying to beat her opponent at the sake of killing anyone around her. More so by her saying it's dangerous really reinforces how out of hand the kids would get.

Every instance where the kids are revered as strong, is for who or what they are. They don't compare to Goku and Vegeta during that arc and they certainly didn't compare to them during the early Cell arc. All of them are constantly amazed with their talents, for instance Goten's ability to go SSJ,
Gohan: “Go-Goten…Since when have you…?”
Goten: “Mmmm…I forgot.”
Gohan: “Un-unbelievable…Even your dead father and I suffered a lot to become Super Saiyans…”

He compares it to the relative ease he had compared to them. There's always reasoning towards the comments about their strength and abilities, usually concerning age or the ease they can achieve such with, which they wouldn't be amazed by if they were older. If they were 11 and trained like Gohan did and went SSJ2, I doubt any of them would be surprised. Vegeta would be a little pissed off but seeing that Gohan could accomplish it, I doubt it'd make headway with the reactions everyone had. If you look at the incident with Vegeta, he was working up a noticeable sweat and was taken back by how easily Trunks could move in the gravity as a SSJ, whereas he couldn't. You're basically trying to tell me a Trunks, whose base could barley stand the gravity is comparable to a Vegeta that could easily stand it out in base. You're saying this by the means that SSJ Trunks is somewhere near the adult SSJs, which they're not. It seems pretty obvious if base Vegeta can handle 300x+ gravity and base Trunks can barley handle 150, the 50x SSJ multiplier would clearly show Trunks to be significantly weaker than Vegeta and the early Cell arc Vegeta. Simple.

[Fox666]

After Goku trained with Kaio his battle power was "over 8,000" and after training in 100G his battle power increased to 90,000. Apparently around 10 times. So Vegeta training in 300G is supposed to have 270,000?

[Perfect]

It's only linear if you take in the amount of training done under the gravity and the focus of the training done under the gravity. Regardless of any of that, the logic all points to Trunks and Goten being weaker than Vegeta's early Cell arc self. Vegeta could handle the gravity at that time, Trunks couldn't. The SSJs are solid multipliers of x50. Plus Goten's weaker than Trunks, therefore putting them both under Vegeta during the early Cell arc.

[Fox666]

There is no "logic" for it.

You don't know the circumstances which Trunks was training under 150G neither details of Vegeta training in 300G, you can't compare them. And f it is not "linear" like you says, then you can't tell for sure if Vegeta couldn't handle 300G until he transformed Super Saiyan, since he was transformed while training in 150G.

In fact, we don't even know exactly how this weights training thing works. Why people who can lift 10,000 tons rocks can't move with 100kg clothes? Is this weight training supposed to affect the body directly regardless of Ki size? Then it should be a problem for a kid to handle. Perhaps that's why Piccolo weightened turban was holding his speed against Freeza.

Of course it has been suggested before in the thread that you must accostumate your body with weights or gravity. Why would Babidi and Dabra put trust on someone like Pui-pui, if he thinks that he can win in a gravity of 10 times which supposedly Raditz was raised with?

[Perfect]

You're just dodging the answer now because you're wrong, or just misunderstanding everything I've said. The context of what Vegeta says to Trunks rather implies simply he either started lower for him to grab a feel of the gravity or started right away with it, regardless, he says he can't handle it and Trunks agrees, prompting the transformation. Yes you can compare them, Trunks couldn't handle it and Vegeta could. Vegeta even in heated training sessions still managed to handle it for quite sometime. Trunks on the other hand can't even take in the 150 gravity, and from the looks of things they hadn't been in there nearly as long as Vegeta was with x300+.

You keep dodging the fact that Goku lifting weights was a combination of gravity, fatigue and energy usage from flying at the same time, which has been pointed out to you before. You're entire point is killed right there.

It's simple, they gravely underestimated their opponents. Typical villain arrogance if you will, there's of course other explanations, but I like that one the best.

If Vegeta during the early Cell arc can handle x300+ gravity and Trunks can't even handle x150 in base form, it's just obvious he's below that level of strength. Vegeta wasn't transformed in the manga or anime under x300 also, because he hadn't reached SSJ yet. It isn't linear in the context of how long you're in the gravity, what you do under it and what the amount of gravity is. We can compare the two like this:

Vegeta:
Amount: x300+
Time spent: More than Trunks
How: Various punches and kicks

Trunks:
Amount: 150
Time Spent: Less than Vegeta
How: Barley able to walk around

We can also factor in Trunks just not being used to it like Gohan wasn't, but he overcame such very quickly because he was physically able to, unlike Goku for awhile.

[Kaboom]

You're both right. Weights or gravity can still have an effect on you if you're not used to it regardless of how powerful you are. Goku was totally unaccustomed to 10x gravity despite it being something even low-class Saiyan children grow up in. Then Tenshinhan and Yamcha both needed to adjust to it as well, despite being at least as or more powerful than Raditz already.

But drastically increasing your overall strength can evidently still help you overcome it, as we see when Trunks was able to easily overcome the 150 Gs just by going Super Saiyan. Same for Goku with his 40 tons of weights.

There is a loose pattern to both aspects, but it's not 100% consistent.

Now as for the original topic, is there anything more to say about Piccolo?

[Saiga]

I'm not even sure about what the title means - it's never insinuated that he lost power at all. He's just been surpassed, by the looks of things.

[Fox666]

You're just dodging the answer now

Sorry, you asked something?

You keep dodging the fact that Goku lifting weights was a combination of gravity, fatigue and energy usage from flying at the same time, which has been pointed out to you before. You're entire point is killed right there.

What are you talking about? It has been a whole page since I mentioned the 40 tons training, isn't it a little to late to complain about it?

Vegeta wasn't transformed in the manga or anime under x300 also, because he hadn't reached SSJ yet.

As far the manga goes, we only see Vegeta exausted under 300G. You can't tell for sure what happened.

Vegeta:
Amount: x300+
Time spent: More than Trunks
How: Various punches and kicks

We don't see him doing any of these in the manga...

[Perfect]

What are you talking about? It has been a whole page since I mentioned the 40 tons training, isn't it a little to late to complain about it?

No? You just made that comparison about 10 ton rocks.

As far the manga goes, we only see Vegeta exausted under 300G. You can't tell for sure what happened.

The training takes place before the time skip, there's no indication of him ever being SSJ or going to space by that point in time. Plus he was pissed off as opposed to confident.

We don't see him doing any of these in the manga...

We know he spent more time in there because obviously he was trying to surpass Goku. We know he had to of done some form of punches and kick and whatnot, we see him standing in two panels, so he can hold his own weight when he's exhausted.

[Fox666]

No? You just made that comparison about 10 ton rocks.

A comparison with 100kg weights. I don't see a connection.

The training takes place before the time skip, there's no indication of him ever being SSJ or going to space by that point in time. Plus he was pissed off as opposed to confident.

In the manga he asks for the 300G machine after Trunks killed Freeza and he doesn't go to space at all.