Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[Saiga]

III. Again, Trunks was stronger than Freeza. He wasn't stronger because he won, he won because he was stronger.

And it can be interpreted that Paikuhan won because he is stronger (it truly seems that way in the scene). Neither interpretation of which character is stronger is factual, they are both interpretations and one is no more correct than the other.

[Perfect]

Incorrect. Trunks beating Freeza because he's stronger is an entirely different context. We actually See Trunks beat Freeza in speed and strength, whereas in the notion of this context we don't see either. As I've stated, the most tactical win, not the strongest.

[Fox666]

I. That has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted other than you think it's funny, when it turn that also has nothing to do with the feeling Cell's face expresses in the screen shot.

I find most of the faces they make on the screenshots funny. Especially Cell. Or thet animation studio has a ridiculous style for a serious situation. I can't think of your clown crying over a dead child with that style.

II. Things are slowed down for artistic purposes, there's also no indication of that here.

Which of course turns out to be a proof that Cell was immobilized... not just in the fountain, but in all other attacks of Paikuhan.

III. Again, Trunks was stronger than Freeza. He wasn't stronger because he won, he won because he was stronger.

Here is the deal: the animators made everyone shocked when Paikuhan hit Cell, and made it in slow motion to show the power of the attack. That's what the writters and animators wanted: Paikuhan show an overwhelming strength by defeating the villain of the last arc. They never tought of power supression, surprise attacks or Kaio-ken-alike techniques.

And after all that, he fights evenly with Goku for some reason.

[Perfect]

I. It doesn't matter what you find the faces to be. Perceiving something as funny as opposed to the actual expression one's giving off is completely different.

II. Yes, I've stated this before... In the main post to be specific.

III. All you can say for fact there is it was artistically portrayed and he fought evenly with Goku. The rest is speculation, meaning we don't know that for sure. Cell on the other hand being caught off guard is indeed fact.

[Fox666]

It doesn't matter what you find the faces to be.

Apparently you can see whenever what other people say is just interpretation or subjetive.

[Perfect]

Okay I think I see the problem here actually. If I'm walking down the street and a cougar jumps out from the brush startling me, I'm clearly going to be surprised. That's the emotion I'm feeling, it's the same as if you were writing a book. The fictional character experiences fear, there's no fighting that. However, you can find his expression of fear funny. That's subjective, how you find the characters to be perceived is your opinion. You can find the expression, funny, stupid, humble or a wide variety of things. What you can't dispute however is the actual emotion the character is feeling. It's fact the character is feeling fear, that's not subjective at all.

So basically you may find Cell's expression funny, but that's not the emotion he's experiencing in the story. To reiterate what I've said, Cell is surprised, you find his surprised look to be funny. The fact you find it funny is a subjective, the fact he's surprised isn't.

[DBZ Mick]

Then there's the fact that Cell also actually says 'What?!'...

[Fox666]

You are analyzing the facial expression of a fictional character. You couldn't be more subjective than that.

[Perfect]

The fact that's fictional means absolutely nothing in terms of his facial expression in this context. He clearly shows he's surprised via artwork and dialect. To be surprised is to experience a sudden unexpected feeling, which Cell verbally expresses as well.

[Hitiro]

I can't remember much of this filler but I'm sure it is explicitly stated by someone in it that Paikuhan would have no trouble against Cell. This is where Goku interjects saying that Cell is really powerful and would be a much larger problem to deal with than they give him credit for. But at the end of the day it really is just filler, why should we bother trying to make plausible theories about something that isn't part of the original universe? I mean in this filler Goku is able to use Kaioken in SSJ, something which I believe would rape his body beyond belief.

[Senzu_Bean]

I think it's pretty clear that Paikuhan is suppose to be stronger than Cell - he beat, without effort, Cell and that is where the respect Goku has for him came from to begin with. IIRC, someone (narrator?) says Goku was getting stronger and stronger as the tournament progressed and at the end he only won because he outsmarted Paikuhan. Goku was outclassed in every way in their match, to the point he had to use a super Kaio-ken to counterattack.

[SylentEcho]

I'd like to think that Cell was stronger than Paikuhan, but I'll go with Fox666 saying that TOEI intended his expressions to be comical.

Look at Freeza and King Cold's faces. Those faces of shock are usually used in comedic situations. The fact that they all got thrown into spikes and are all bandaged up bickering later shows that that scene was so show how strong Paikuhan was and how the villains are a joke now in front of these strong guys in the afterlife.

Also, look at this:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h44 ... cell15.png
This is TOEI clearly trying to say that Cell is getting owned by Paikuhan.

On the other hand, as Perfect stated, it makes no sense because that would mean that Goku was about as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in a matter of days.

Conclusion:
This filler made no sense whatsoever and shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Either explanation works, to be honest, and nothing changes.

[lash]

Paikuhan is stronger... Or at least the attack he used on Cell was stronger than the Cell that Gohan beat.

The next episode Goku even hypes Paikuhan to Kaio-sama and explained how he finished Paikuhan off in a flash in his own words. He attributes this to Pauikuhan's power by saying "he's really powerful". Since Goku was there, and we weren't, and he considers the fight a completely legitimate finish on Paikuhan's part...it is what it is. Kaio-sama isn't even like "WTF, NO WAI", he pretty much says "Yeah okay", didn't care, and states that Paikuhan isn't the only powerful one there. This is the same Kaio-sama who felt FPSSJ Goku's power from his world(filler) and knows how powerful Cell after his near death powerup is. Cell simply wasn't anything special by this arc.

To damage someone off guard you still have to be within their level of power. Since Cell wasn't KO'd, he had a good opportunity as Paikuhan was dealing with the rest to simply powerup, if one thinks he wasn't at full power, and absolutely stomp Paikuhan. But the fact is, Paikuhan's attack was just much stronger then Cell. Thus Cell had no energy left to powerup or even save himself from a bunch of needles.

On the other hand, as Perfect stated, it makes no sense because that would mean that Goku was about as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in a matter of days.

An injured and weakened Gohan defeated Cell.

Goku was much weaker than Paikuhan, to the point a clear clean hit to the face with a Super Kaioken did no damage whatsoever.
Goku was also stated by Paikuhan to have gotten much stronger very quickly. Which was made apparent as normal Goku states he couldn't even see the movements of Olive and Paikuhan's battle. Later as he is fighting weighted Paikuhan, Paikuhan poses a question as he is getting over powered... something along the lines of 'could he be stronger than me'?



Personally I see the scenario as this:
Gohan >=< Paikuhan's Attack > Cell > Paikuhan > Goku > Cell Games Goku

[dbgtFO]

As I said in that other thread, I think it was pretty clear Cell was taken by surprise, when Paikuhan appeared out of nowhere, but it doesn't mean this proves Cell was actually the stronger of the two.
Paikuhan being capable of defeating last arcs' villains, because he's so powerful seems to be the intended meaning the writers wanted to convey, so I go with that.
So it's not because "it's filler and therefore logic doesn't apply."
In my case at least.

[Fox666]

The "taken by surprise" is a common explanation among fans, but I doubt the writters had that in mind.

I don't really see why Paikuhan cannot be stronger than Cell. It the only reason because Goku could fight Paikuhan? The fillers always had a poor balance of power. And the manga logic doesn't apply to fillers.

[Perfect]

It's not that the logic doesn't apply so much as you can apply it.

Cell simply wasn't anything special by this arc.

Well to rephrase this, he wasn't made into anything special during this arc. He was still revered as that guy that almost killed everyone in the Buu arc. :p

To damage someone off guard you still have to be within their level of power.

So Yajirobe was around battle damaged Vegeta's level who was still easily stronger?

Since Cell wasn't KO'd, he had a good opportunity as Paikuhan was dealing with the rest to simply powerup, if one thinks he wasn't at full power, and absolutely stomp Paikuhan. But the fact is, Paikuhan's attack was just much stronger then Cell. Thus Cell had no energy left to powerup or even save himself from a bunch of needles.

It's not so much he didn't have the energy to power up or the time, but as you've said, Paikuhan's attack was just that powerful to immobilize him in his current state.

An injured and weakened Gohan defeated Cell.

With the help of Goku & Vegeta.

Goku was much weaker than Paikuhan, to the point a clear clean hit to the face with a Super Kaioken did no damage whatsoever.

He was punched into a small moon where pain was seen through the expression of his face.

Goku was also stated by Paikuhan to have gotten much stronger very quickly. Which was made apparent as normal Goku states he couldn't even see the movements of Olive and Paikuhan's battle. Later as he is fighting weighted Paikuhan, Paikuhan poses a question as he is getting over powered... something along the lines of 'could he be stronger than me'?

Personally I see the scenario as this:
Gohan >=< Paikuhan's Attack > Cell > Paikuhan > Goku > Cell Games Goku

I'd place it more like this,

SSJ Gohan FP >=< Post-zenkai Cell > SSJ2 Injured Gohan > Pikkon's attack > Cell FP (Basically what I see him at during the Hell filler) > Goku

[lash]

So Yajirobe was around battle damaged Vegeta's level who was still easily stronger?

The sword's blade pierced through Vegeta and his armor. Not exactly or entirely Yaj.
It must have been a sharp one too.

It's not so much he didn't have the energy to power up or the time, but as you've said, Paikuhan's attack was just that powerful to immobilize him in his current state.

He was still conscious and could still move though. He simply couldn't come back and fight because his Ki in its entirely was surpassed and utterly defeated.

With the help of Goku & Vegeta.

And at less than half power.

He was punched into a small moon where pain was seen through the expression of his face.

The expression on his face is irrelevant if no lasting damage is present.
He looked as tense as he did the entire fight when he struck back at Goku anyway.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7311/paikuhan.png

Even if he looked like that attack knocked the shit outta him, you'd need more than an expression as support to say he was in pain. Just have a look at the expression on Toei's SSJ4 Goku to blows that apparently tickle him.
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/3618/ticklej.png

SSJ Gohan FP >=< Post-zenkai Cell > SSJ2 Injured Gohan > Paikuhan's attack > Cell FP (Basically what I see him at during the Hell filler) > Goku

The problem with that is that Cell is exactly as powerful as he was before he was killed by Gohan.

The Cell vs Paikuhan picture says Cell’s strength wasn’t any different in Hell.

Notice it says it exactly when Paikuhan is striking Cell. Even for some random reason someone isn't convinced Cell attacked at full power by the scan, since Cell had no energy left to do anything(and was still completely conscious) after he was attacked, Paikuhan's attack should and does exceed Post near death powerup Cell's power anyway.

[Perfect]

The sword's blade pierced through Vegeta and his armor. Not exactly or entirely Yaj.
It must have been a sharp one too.

The sharpness of the blade has nothing to do with it, that's like saying, "damn that rock Goku threw sure was powerful, must've been the rock!"

He was still conscious and could still move though. He simply couldn't come back and fight because his Ki in its entirely was surpassed and utterly defeated.

You just contradicted yourself. If he were able to move, he would have. You state his chi is gone, in which he's defeated (Hence why he didn't move). That would be another indication in itself that he was rendered immobile. The fact you state all his chi was gone is merely a theory at that, as opposed to being knocked out.

And at less than half power.

Doesn't matter, without either of them he would have been murdered in cold blood. Cell wasn't struggling at all with him, he was about to finish him off afterall, until Vegeta intervened.

The expression on his face is irrelevant if no lasting damage is present.
He looked as tense as he did the entire fight when he struck back at Goku anyway.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7311/paikuhan.png

You didn't state anything about "lasting damage". He was clearly hurt by the attack, which is the point I made, be more specific next time. For all we know the "Super Kaio-ken" could be a very small boost or even less because of SSJ, no one really knows.

The problem with that is that Cell is exactly as powerful as he was before he was killed by Gohan.

The Cell vs Paikuhan picture says Cell’s strength wasn’t any different in Hell.

Notice it says it exactly when Paikuhan is striking Cell. Even for some random reason someone isn't convinced Cell attacked at full power by the scan, since Cell had no energy left to do anything(and was still completely conscious) after he was attacked, Paikuhan's attack should and does exceed Post near death powerup Cell's power anyway.

There's no evidence in the episode that Cell's power was anywhere near his post-zenkai strength. The only logic anyone seems to adhere to is that scan, in which it just says he retains his strength from Earth. That's so vague it could mean a variety of things. That in itself is open to interpretation, whereas there's no evidence in the story Cell was powered up. Notice the scan doesn't say, "Cell was exactly as powerful as he was when he was killed by Gohan".

[dbgtFO]

Since Cell wasn't KO'd, he had a good opportunity as Paikuhan was dealing with the rest to simply powerup, if one thinks he wasn't at full power, and absolutely stomp Paikuhan. But the fact is, Paikuhan's attack was just much stronger then Cell. Thus Cell had no energy left to powerup or even save himself from a bunch of needles.

I don't see why Cell having power in reserve would mean he should be able to counter, when Freeza and Cold were getting dealt with. Not being KO, does not negate him from still needing some time to recover from an attack with power exceeding his suppressed power. Going by that theory he required too much time.