My conclusions after showing different people DBZ and Kai

[AgitoZ]

Well, HSotD (+ TWC) isn't a cheesy lame ass zombie series like others out there, thank god!

Yes it is. The characters are nothing new, the idea is nothing new, etc. Wanna watch something good that's zombie related? Go watch Night of the Livng Dead.

What's the story of DBZ? Beating a bunch of bad guys and then do all over again? That's not a real plot.

Other than what Aoi said, my main problem with your continous statements is that you keep stating the plot (an oversimplified version) yet continue to say there's no story. You can't criticize the plot and say there isn't one at the same time.

[Rocketman]

Nostalgia has blinded you. Take it from a guy who didn't grow up with the show; Z's pacing is absolutely atrocious from the very beginning (20 minutes of Gohan crying in a forest). I stopped trying to watch that tripe around the seventh or tenth time they cut away from the fight with Raditz to show random woodland animals and Chichi washing dishes.

[DBZ Mick]

I do think filler does help the original DBZ in some cases.

I really like the character moments which come from a lot of filler. The interactions they have with each other is my favourite part of the show/manga and DBZ filler does help enrich that. Such as Gohan and Piccolo's, Goku and Vegeta's relationships for example. Not to mention individual arcs.

I also like the pacing a lot. Although it does have it's extremes like the Freeza arc- it's mostly well paced. Besides pacing a comic book is different to pacing a cartoon. I thought that mostly the Saiyan arc in Kai was way too fast.

What's the story of DBZ? Beating a bunch of bad guys and then do all over again?

That's simplifiying the story to it's extreme basics. the Piccolo Daimaou arc to the 23rd Budokai and the Saiyan-Freeza arcs both have very well written arcs, full of plot twists, character development, well-executed set ups that pay off very well in later arcs, and so on.

Z's pacing is absolutely atrocious from the very beginning (20 minutes of Gohan crying in a forest). I stopped trying to watch that tripe around the seventh or tenth time they cut away from the fight with Raditz to show random woodland animals and Chichi washing dishes.

I liked those- well the Gohan one...

[dbboxkaifan]

In Dragonball, the Saiyan arc story is my favourite pure tale. In terms of plot, DBZ is simply fantastic.

Dragon Ball Z not Dragon Ball.

Referring to "Dragon Ball" when it should be "Dragon Ball Z" is an insult, Dragon Ball's much better and actually with a real storyline.

Powering up for 20 episodes and screams, it's what DBZ is about.

For nostalgia's sake I love Dragon Ball Z and everything about it, but it's never going to be the best anime series, despite what YouTube commentators say.

You guys love DBZ in a different way than I do, that's totally fine.

[AgitoZ]

Dragon Ball Z not Dragon Ball.

Referring to "Dragon Ball" when it should be "Dragon Ball Z" is an insult, Dragon Ball's much better and actually with a real storyline.

Powering up for 20 episodes and screams, it's what DBZ is about.

Dragon Ball Z is Dragon Ball. No matter what Toei or Viz tell you. If you don't want those 20 episodes and screams then read it instead. It's the same story, no crappy pacing included.

[kemuri07]

In Dragonball, the Saiyan arc story is my favourite pure tale. In terms of plot, DBZ is simply fantastic.

Dragon Ball Z not Dragon Ball.

Referring to "Dragon Ball" when it should be "Dragon Ball Z" is an insult, Dragon Ball's much better and actually with a real storyline.

Powering up for 20 episodes and screams, it's what DBZ is about.

For nostalgia's sake I love Dragon Ball Z and everything about it, but it's never going to be the best anime series, despite what YouTube commentators say.

You guys love DBZ in a different way than I do, that's totally fine.

Dude.....what?

Either you don't have a clear understanding of Dragon Ball Z, or you're purposefully simplifying Z's narrative for your own trollish needs.

Make no mistake, DBZ is perhaps more simplistic than your average anime (or story for that matter) but to say it has no "plot" is far more of an insult to Dragon Ball.

Does the story contain characters?
Is their an ultimate goal that must be achieved?
Do characters change over time?

If yes, then what you have is a narrative; saying otherwise is down-right idiotic. Now, whether DBZ is a well-written story is a completely different, far more intelligent, argument that probably should be made in another thread.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I've got to side with both Cipher and Aoi and Rocketman at the same time. There are times where the filler definitely helps (Pre-Cell games, anyone?) build mood, but that mood doesn't entirety excuse the how on earth did they stretch that out for twenty minutes?! reaction I still get to this day from some episodes.

Non-Freeza episodes, that is. Nothing original I can say about the Freeza episodes outside of bemusement that Funimation could release an entire box set that's just one giant fight. That and it's sad how such a great villain is so hard to actually watch in animated form, even though he drags on in print too.

I mean, I'll have to backpedal and say that the Buu arc's dragging rarely it any favors, even if it's based on what I recall to be the longest story in the manga as well. A Kai treatment could at least cut it in half.

Story vs. Plot.

Bingo. Storyline becomes formulaic at it's core; but that each incarnation ends up being told so differently and largely coherently despite Toriyama's haphazard writing style (The his luck started running out with Buu, but then he ended it there) is almost miraculous.

Lest we forget;

Spur-of-the-moment author + Executive meddling = Plot Twists

[DBZ Mick]

(The his luck started running out with Buu, but then he ended it there)

Personally I have a lot of problems with the Artifical Human and Cell arcs but they come together at the end during the Cell Game.

Same with the Boo arc, it starts really well but then Toriyama drags it out with new transformations, absorptions, fusions...

[ohaimynameiserik]

I introduced several of my Dragon Ball virgin friends to Kai, and then showed them the same material in Z.

It had the complete opposite effect of your "experiment".

I can only speak for the English dubbed versions of the series, but my friends enjoyed the better acting performances, more serious mature dialogue, and significantly less one liners Kai has to offer.

Not to mention that the show can hold your interest when watching multiple episodes in one sitting, simply because stuff happens.

In Z, during the fight with Nappa, characters died over the course of a few episodes. Which is of course a shock, however in Kai that material is covered in maybe 2 episodes.

My friends were literally on the edge of their seat, yelling "Oh, shit!" after Tenshinhan, Chaozu, and Piccolo died rather close to each other.

There is no episode dedicated to Bulma and her trouble with crabs. c wut i did thar?

Plot points taking much much MUCH longer to happen doesn't raise tension. It kills interest.

[Aoi]

I introduced several of my Dragon Ball virgin friends to Kai, and then showed them the same material in Z.

It had the complete opposite effect of your "experiment".

I can only speak for the English dubbed versions of the series, but my friends enjoyed the better acting performances, more serious mature dialogue, and significantly less one liners Kai has to offer.

Not to mention that the show can hold your interest when watching multiple episodes in one sitting, simply because stuff happens.

In Z, during the fight with Nappa, characters died over the course of a few episodes. Which is of course a shock, however in Kai that material is covered in maybe 2 episodes.

My friends were literally on the edge of their seat, yelling "Oh, shit!" after Tenshinhan, Chaozu, and Piccolo died rather close to each other.

There is no episode dedicated to Bulma and her trouble with crabs. c wut i did thar?

Plot points taking much much MUCH longer to happen doesn't raise tension. It kills interest.

I think it depends on how invested people are with the characters. I would agree that perhaps Kai's version of the Frieza and Cell arcs could be better (haven't seen the original recently), but for me the key emotionally binding moments are king in DBZ. I tend to introduce people to Z right at the start of the fight between Yamcha and the Saibaman. It's basically a promo for me to show them how well the tension is built between that point and the next 5-6 episodes. Usually people fall in love with the show so much that they actually want to continue into the Frieza saga and find out what happened before.
It's how I got into the show and found great results when introducing others to it.

I always skip certain filler episodes. In the Saiyan saga, Episodes 9,10, 11, 12 and 15 (I keep the Goku Snake Way eps because I still find they are hilarious ). I keep 16 also (the Pendulum one with the Z gang) just because it gives those characters nice exposure. The rest of the way, is just perfect. From Goku arriving to King Kai's planet all the way to the end of the battle with Vegeta.

The only time I feel that nothing happens in DBZ is during the first half of the Saiyan arc. It's excruciatingly slow at times.

[Aoi]

Now, the Frieza saga is basically 0% re-watchable after the Ginyu Force is defeated. Kai Parts 3 and 4 (especially with my Part 4 Kuichi disk, which has wonderful musical placement) works great as a short replacement. You might as well replace "Z" with Kai in this saga. There are no real "magical moments" during the Frieza fight. It's all just intense and entertaining. Kai performs this function very well.

The Cell arc has wonderful pacing in DBZ I feel. Every episode something big happens. I'm still not 100% if I'd prefer Kai here. The English voice acting is ...really...amazing. The animation is stunningly good. But while I enjoy the show fine with the Kuichi score in Kai, I look to see which version of the show has the best "classic moments". They are big payoffs for me.
Moments like:
- Trunks turning SSJ, killing Frieza
- Vegeta turning SSJ, killing 19
- Goku wakes up from his coma.
- Gohan turning SSJ2, many key moments during the fight with Cell
- The Z group arrive to the Cell games

etc.

[Gonstead]

(especially with my Part 4 Kuichi disk, which has wonderful musical placement)

Are you being sarcastic or do you really mean that?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Now, the Freeza saga is basically 0% re-watchable after the Ginyu Force is defeated. Kai Parts 3 and 4 (especially with my Part 4 Kuichi disk, which has wonderful musical placement) works great as a short replacement. You might as well replace "Z" with Kai in this saga. There are no real "magical moments" during the Freeza fight. It's all just intense and entertaining. Kai performs this function very well.

I'm honestly on the verge of doing that; which I don't like because of DBox 3's being the only reasonably-priced one left that I don't have.

[Aoi]

(especially with my Part 4 Kuichi disk, which has wonderful musical placement)

Are you being sarcastic or do you really mean that?

lol, that cracked me up. I am serious. This is my opinion: People are like chicks (as in baby chickens) when it comes to watching television shows. It's often said that a chick will consider the first being it encounters to be its mother and attach itself to it as so. People are the same when it comes to television shows.

When I first saw Dragon Ball Z (Ocean dub) , I thought it was the greatest thing I had ever seen. Not only that, but I didn't at all notice any of the missing episodes, any of the missing scenes, the censorship, lack of Kuichi music. I was enthralled and focused on following this incredible story. After getting used to Falconer, then Kuichi, then Yamamoto. I basically realized that the music sounds "bad" to most people just because it goes against their nostalgic sentiment.

How many times do you see people bashing Kai because :"this scene wasn't how I remembered it"?

Anywho, with that mind set I fully accepted Kai Part 4 (Frieza fight) with the Kuichi score and felt that a new comer would absolutely love it without knowing what he or she would be missing.

[Gonstead]

It's just that Part 4 in particular seems to have some of, if not the most repetitive of the entire replacement score in terms of musical placement with Kikuchi's music.

It's just a whole with this repetitive music placement which really turned me off from Kai. I don't think I can count the number of times I facepalmed hearing the same 3 - 4 tracks being played per episode just in different orders.

I had no previous knowlege of watching Kai myself save for a scant few clips here and there before I finally decided to sit down and watch it. Same goes for the musical placement which really helped in certain areas when Yamamoto was composing unlike the Kikuchi version where I don;t feel much from it at all.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the new English dub that was provided for Kai and I'd love to buy the rest of the Kai series that I'm missing but it;s simply the repetitive nature of the Kikuchi score which is a downer for me.

[Aoi]

It's just that Part 4 in particular seems to have some of, if not the most repetitive of the entire replacement score in terms of musical placement with Kikuchi's music.

It's just a whole with this repetitive music placement which really turned me off from Kai. I don't think I can count the number of times I facepalmed hearing the same 3 - 4 tracks being played per episode just in different orders.

I had no previous knowlege of watching Kai myself save for a scant few clips here and there before I finally decided to sit down and watch it. Same goes for the musical placement which really helped in certain areas when Yamamoto was composing unlike the Kikuchi version where I don;t feel much from it at all.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the new English dub that was provided for Kai and I'd love to buy the rest of the Kai series that I'm missing but it;s simply the repetitive nature of the Kikuchi score which is a downer for me.

That's a fair point. Have you seen Kai's Cell arc btw? I just finished the first episode (55) a few days ago and I don't think 1 track was repeated. In fact, I loved how they used some of the rare movie scores that you rarely heard in "Z". IE: Gohan vs. Bojack Round 1 , when Trunks first appears worked well for me.

Here's another question. Did the soundtrack repeat itself a lot during the original Frieza arc? I remember it being very repetitive actually.

Like I said with the "chick" metaphor, I find that people (on their first viewing) are just fascinated with how the story will play out. They tend to develop their own endearing moments as the series progresses.
Funny example, I remember when the Ocean dub returned in Canada. We had the Cell Games cut off at the Goku vs. Cell kamehameha moment for nearly a year. Even with the incredibly lame mega-man music and mostly horrible voice actors, I found myself thrilled just to be able to follow the story and made my own "connections" with a few particularly well done scenes. Just like fans of the Falconer score have done, just how fans of the Kai dub have done now.

1 particular moment that I adored from the sub-par Ocean dub was when Gohan finally leaves Kami's lookout (ep 193). It's funny how my favourite version of that 1 particular scene, came from my least favourite of all the dubs (by a long shot, not counting the brilliant first two seasons).

[Rocketman]

Preferring Z over Kai because of music is like committing suicide because you have a hangnail.

[DBZ Mick]

I'm probably going to read my VIZBIG's for the Freeza fight this time for something different.

[Gonstead]

I've seen a few episodes whenever I could when they were new on Youtube.

I think it steps into the realm of repetitive music again when it reaches the Cell Games from what I remember watching when the episodes were just released and we were discussing them.

[kei17]

Preferring Z over Kai because of music is like committing suicide because you have a hangnail.

Don't forget to add "in my opinion" to that sentence.