Budokai combat mechanics vs. Tenkaichi combat mechanics

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Donie, what did you mean by the lack of variety in Burst Limit?

^ The problem Tenkaichi runs into is it has all the means to make characters varied, it just doesn't have enough. See characters that have a combo ending move (hard punch, triple kick, etc.) for multiple basic hits and Blast 1's with different names but identical effects, and just bad Blast 1's in general.

Fact is, it's just take like a 3D fighting game. naruto and many others follows this same aspect. One button to do a combo regardless if it is a punch or a kick,and easy combos by just pressing the button Z amount of times. However, the combat is deep, and there are transformation that change the character style.

I was more pointing out what it is than what it had all the potential in the world to be. Ultimate Ninja Storm got around it by throwing in other buttons and directional inputs as well, it's just every character had a few different attacks from that system- basically it took a simple system and made it somewhat varied, as you already believed to be possible.

Tenkaichi does a lot of that two, but not to the same level in my experience, with most characters have at least one melee finisher that's shared between multiple numbers of hits (Say, one attack + energy and four attacks + energy get the same result)- minor characters even moreso. Doesn't Nappa have the heavy punch as like, three of his four finishers? That's a sign that you need a new finisher for heavies.

[012yArthur0]

Donie, what did you mean by the lack of variety in Burst Limit?
I was more pointing out what it is than what it had all the potential in the world to be. Ultimate Ninja Storm got around it by throwing in other buttons and directional inputs as well, it's just every character had a few different attacks from that system- basically it took a simple system and made it somewhat varied, as you already believed to be possible.

Tenkaichi does a lot of that two, but not to the same level in my experience, with most characters have at least one melee finisher that's shared between multiple numbers of hits (Say, one attack + energy and four attacks + energy get the same result)- minor characters even moreso. Doesn't Nappa have the heavy punch as like, three of his four finishers? That's a sign that you need a new finisher for heavies.

I didn't play Ultimate Ninja Storm, but I did play Ultimate Ninja 2 and 3. And if I remember, once you put the first hit+direction button, nothing will change after the other hits (even if you put another directions on the way) and this combo variation just changes where the opponent will fall.

In BT3, however, the simple "Rush-In" is the easiest combo string and it is where on all the melee damage comes, sure, but there are a lot of ways to counter the combos. Afterimage and Z-Counter, which are definetely something to pratice, for example.

Not only that, but each "Secondary" attack has his own ways to follow-up or to evade. Instead of rush-in using Square+Left (which the opponent can easily block putting circle+left), you can use the Rush-In Heavy (Or rush-in Kiai Cannon, since it changes by character) and that instantly guard breaks, however, you can simply press X+Left/Right to roll around the opponent and counter attack.

Not only that, but B1's also counts. Sure, there are very similar to each other, but the combo between them is what count.

SSj2 Goku for example. He have a powerhouse melee and a good rush. His B1 is Instant Transmission, which can simply evade a attack or easily catch the opponent of the guard, or he can just use Full Power, which him makes at MAX for a instantaneous Super Kamehameha. Or you can just use both, making a nice, Super Kamehameha in the back.

SSJ2 Teen Gohan have Explosive Wave and Unforgivable. SSJ2 Teen Gohan have one of the best melee in the game, and his Explosive Wave works a nice defensive tool to anyone who even try to take a close combat (Like Kid buu or SSJ3 Goku GT). He have a Super Kamehameha that cost 2 ki and it's instantaneous, or he have a barrage attack to stop anyone to come close to you.

See? These things might have very little difference, but it makes a lot in competitive gaming.

[dbboxkaifan]

Why only B x T? There's also SDBZ, DBA, Battle Stadium D.O.N and others I didn't mention.

Battle Stadium D.O.N was such an awesome and addictivie fighter, pretty much like Super Smash Bros but with characters from Dragon Ball Z, One Piece and Naruto.

Even though BSDON never came out in the western Freeza's name was "Frieza".

[012yArthur0]

Well, I disliked DON due the combo lacks. All you could do was throw them up and do few hits while in the air.

[DonieZ]

^ The problem Tenkaichi runs into is it has all the means to make characters varied, it just doesn't have enough. See characters that have a combo ending move (hard punch, triple kick, etc.) for multiple basic hits and Blast 1's with different names but identical effects, and just bad Blast 1's in general.

Fact is, it's just take like a 3D fighting game. naruto and many others follows this same aspect. One button to do a combo regardless if it is a punch or a kick,and easy combos by just pressing the button Z amount of times. However, the combat is deep, and there are transformation that change the character style.

Please guys, don't take it offensive, but I would like that people would stop looking at this game superficially. Any game have a competitive system, some more noticeable than others, but still competitive.

Lol, no offense but saying that is like saying every car has four wheels. Yes, anything can be competitive, anything, however it's to the level of competitiveness a game can reach is what should be being discussed. I don't really know too much about BT3 in a detailed manner though, so maybe my point of view can be considered slightly biased, so show me how 'deep' it is, using videos or whatever you want (you are allowed to use links).

I don't think BT3 can reach high levels of competition though, due to a range of things such as imbalance, lack of complete variety amongst the roster, the properties attacks have (or 'don't' have, in this case), and especially since the game is quite broken. Z counters are one of the cheapest mechanics in the game, having little cost with high reward, and being incredibly abusable by the AI. Z counter can make things for the other player seem completely pointless, it needs to be restricted.

[012yArthur0]

^ The problem Tenkaichi runs into is it has all the means to make characters varied, it just doesn't have enough. See characters that have a combo ending move (hard punch, triple kick, etc.) for multiple basic hits and Blast 1's with different names but identical effects, and just bad Blast 1's in general.

Fact is, it's just take like a 3D fighting game. naruto and many others follows this same aspect. One button to do a combo regardless if it is a punch or a kick,and easy combos by just pressing the button Z amount of times. However, the combat is deep, and there are transformation that change the character style.

Please guys, don't take it offensive, but I would like that people would stop looking at this game superficially. Any game have a competitive system, some more noticeable than others, but still competitive.

Lol, no offense but saying that is like saying every car has four wheels. Yes, anything can be competitive, anything, however it's to the level of competitiveness a game can reach is what should be being discussed. I don't really know too much about BT3 in a detailed manner though, so maybe my point of view can be considered slightly biased, so show me how 'deep' it is, using videos or whatever you want (you are allowed to use links).

I don't think BT3 can reach high levels of competition though, due to a range of things such as imbalance, lack of complete variety amongst the roster, the properties attacks have (or 'don't' have, in this case), and especially since the game is quite broken. Z counters are one of the cheapest mechanics in the game, having little cost with high reward, and being incredibly abusable by the AI. Z counter can make things for the other player seem completely pointless, it needs to be restricted.

It's because DBZ takes a different style of other 3D fighting games. Let's take naruto as a example:

-In naruto, you have a "Kawarimi no jutsu", which makes you simply dodges attack with one button. However, it costs 1/3 of the chakra, and the wind-up is big, to the point of "button-mashing" to evade. If you put "Guard" button on the "R2" button, you can insanely mash it and you 100% sure to dodge.

However, in BT3, AfterImage and Z-Counters have a strict timing that takes a lot of time to train, however, it don't have a cost of the move, and you can't mash the circle button and pray to work, because it never will.So if you good enough at this, you can keep your opponents combo "half-locked" a lot of times. However, you need to keep in mind that each characters attack have A different speed between each attack and different Signature attacks setups.

Not only that, but BT3 takes reflexes to the offense aswell. To do a Full-Smash, you can hold Square button until your character starts to flash, then release it and it'll launch your opponent miles away if hit (If it was hit sucefully), not only that, but when you hold Square, and in the exact moment it begins to start to flash and release it, your character automatically teleports and hit do a unblockable Full-Smash, aside of the teleportation it gives as a very nice range and you can use effectively in "Mid-to-low range fighting".

A example of characters difference:

Vegito combo strings (Rush-In+ Signatures attacks)is quite easy to predict and to Z-Counter, however, his Z-Counters is hard to Z-Counter, making him a nice Offense-Defense Balance character (Since, even if his attack is simple, he has finish sign, which can wreck you apart, or AfterImage Strike, which can protect you from anything outside of Rush attacks)

Gogeta have a "reverse" style of Vegito, which has a a awesome combo strings, and he flying kick is multi-hitting. However, he Z-Counter is easier than Vegito, and his Finish Sign is cheaper but less effective.

So... if you think Z-Counter is that cheap, good luck using it effectively, because it'll cost you months training.

Edit: Just to end the comparison, BT3 has broken system. But it's a broken offensive and a broken defense.