Thoughts on Super Saiya-jin power-ups

[Jerseymilk]

I agree with TripleRach on the comment about Goku being very aware of his own abilities. When it comes to fighting, be it gauging strength, strategics, feeling out an opponent's weaknesses and strengths, etc., Goku is gifted. Yes, others such as Piccolo and Vegita are very skilled at analyzing a fight or an opponent too, but I've always felt Goku's a virtuoso. Everything with him is instinct and intuition. There's never been any evidence that he's ever been wrong.

[Zackarotto]

Yes, but an almost equally skilled fighter could beat him with the simplest of tricks. He's so gullible...

Well, maybe not so much later on, when it gets so serious. He's got the battle techniques down, but he really has to work on his overall stupidity, because it does affect him in battle.

[James R. Cadwell]

Gokuu has shown to be very self-aware person who does not overestimate his own ablilities. (At least after the 21st Tenkaichi Budoukai and Red Ribbon Army Saga, where he was first learning that he's not the strongest in the world.) He usually knows whether he's strong enough and not strong enough, though he still tries either way. He's been shown to be very knowledgeable in this area. If he says something about his own strength, or someone else's, I don't have any reason to doubt it.

Goku did not see the full extent of Majin Buu's regeneration abilities until -after- he claimed he would have been able to defeat him -- so yes, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku might have been capable of -overpowering- Majin Buu, but what makes you think that he could have destroyed his body?

That's not how Genkidama works. It doesn't just absorb all of someone's power. When Kaiou-sama initially explains how it works, he says it takes "just a small amount of energy" from living things.

Correct, and that wouldn't have been enough to destroy "Kid" Buu, so Goku and Vegeta asked people to -actively- contribute their energy to the "Genki Dama". Are you implying that Mystic Gohan only gave Goku a -tiny- amount of his energy even though the fate of the universe was at stake?

You still haven't explained how Goku planned to generate the energy necessary to completely obliterate Majin Buu's body.

That's Vegeta. Gokuu is not an arrogant person who overestimates himself, like I said. He's been shown to be much more honest and reasonable about these matters.

So basically your entire argument is based on two lines of dialogue -- one where Goku ambiguously rambles about letting other people become the protectors of Earth (shortly after saying that it's likely he -couldn't- defeat Majin Buu) and one where he says that he -probably- could have beaten Buu. Each time Goku actually had the opportunity to destroy Buu using his own power he either didn't or failed.

Dialogue which isn't supported by the evidence doesn't make a solid argument.

Perhaps this is a matter of interpretation, because to me, it seemed like Buu was just kind of standing there.

Every other time someone attacked "Fat" Buu he fought back almost immediately -- why would he suddenly become passive during his battle with Vegeta?

In looking through the manga version of the entire fight, Vegeta never physically hit him. A few blasts connected, but those had no effect.

Fair enough, but that's immaterial to my original argument since Vegeta's ability to -withstand- several blows from "Kid" Buu demonstrates that the difference in power between Buu and Vegeta is less than the difference between the "enhanced" form of Perfect Cell and Super Saiya-jin Vegeta.

[urhash]

Damn James, you are really sticking with your argument. Preparing to write a DBZ thesis? =D

One thing to consider is that Z fighters almost NEVER do the job right the first time. They (particularly Goku and Vegeta) are always seeking out a good challenge, rather than finishing the opponent off as quickly as possible (ie. Vegeta allowing Cell to reach perfect stage, Goku not turning SSJ3 in the fight against Majin Vegeta, etc).

You could make the argument that it was only Goku's 4th or 5th time going SSJ3 when he fought Fat Buu and wasn't fully aware of the true extent of its power. The one thing he DID know was that if he COULD beat Buu, it would've required the uppermost range of his power at SSJ3. Maybe this is why he passed the baton to Gotenks, since he too could reech SSJ3. And as more fights with Buu took place, Goku realized he could have finished the Fat Buu in SSJ3.

That's a lot of assumptions right there, but it does fit with goku's wishy-washy dialogue.

But I suppose if you wanted the most parsimonious explanation... SSJ3 stayed competitive with all forms of Buu but was never close enough to get the job done (and it only got worse as Buu increased power in his various forms).

[Dayspring]

Let's also remember that seven years of training went towards Vegeta perfecting his SSJ state.

Also, if SSJ3 Goku killed Fat Boo then the end of Dragonball would majorly SUCK. Picture this: Vegeta betrays everybody in order to fight Goku. Vegeta dies fighting against Boo. Goku comes along and says "oh by the way, I can annihilate you in one fell swoop!" Goku goes SSJ3 and destroys Boo. The end! Would be funny if that was Toriyama's revenge for making him continue DB after the Cell saga ended though.

[James R. Cadwell]

But I suppose if you wanted the most parsimonious explanation... SSJ3 stayed competitive with all forms of Buu but was never close enough to get the job done (and it only got worse as Buu increased power in his various forms).

That's basically my opinion -- Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku was roughly equal to "Fat" and "Kid" Buu; he just couldn't generate the energy necessary to completely disintegrate Buu and finish the job.

[James R. Cadwell]

Let's also remember that seven years of training went towards Vegeta perfecting his SSJ state.

You know -- I was wondering whether Goku would have eventually been able to sustain Super Saiya-jin 3 if he trained for long enough. I think one of the characters commented that the third level of Super Saiya-jin was "too powerful for the living world", but that's obviously not true since Majin Buu, Vegetto, Gotenks and Mystic Gohan were all able to maintain levels of power equal to or greater than Super Saiya-jin 3 for extended periods of time.

When Goku first became a Super Saiya-jin he only stayed in that form for what, five or ten minutes until after he defeated Freeza and escaped in one of the Ginyu spacepods? For all we know he collapsed from exhaustion immediately afterwards. We didn't really see Vegeta or Mirai no Trunks for long enough after they first became Super Saiya-jin to determine whether or not they rapidly lost power and reverted to their original forms, either. Maybe -all- Super Saiya-jin forms initially deplete power extremely quickly, until the Saiya-jin has learned to control his ki while using that transformation.

Also, if SSJ3 Goku killed Fat Boo then the end of Dragonball would majorly SUCK. Picture this: Vegeta betrays everybody in order to fight Goku. Vegeta dies fighting against Boo. Goku comes along and says "oh by the way, I can annihilate you in one fell swoop!" Goku goes SSJ3 and destroys Boo. The end! Would be funny if that was Toriyama's revenge for making him continue DB after the Cell saga ended though.

Hah, but hey -- at least it would have given us solid evidence that Goku was capable of finishing Buu on his own.

[TripleRach]

Goku did not see the full extent of Majin Buu's regeneration abilities until -after- he claimed he would have been able to defeat him -- so yes, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku might have been capable of -overpowering- Majin Buu, but what makes you think that he could have destroyed his body?

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The first actual claim that he could have beaten Fat Buu with SSJ3 came on Kaioushin Kai before the final battle, after he'd learned plenty about the way Buu fights and regenerates.

Correct, and that wouldn't have been enough to destroy "Kid" Buu, so Goku and Vegeta asked people to -actively- contribute their energy to the "Genki Dama". Are you implying that Mystic Gohan only gave Goku a -tiny- amount of his energy even though the fate of the universe was at stake?

But he always has to actively ask people and plants and whatnot to lend energy to a Genkidama. He doesn't just steal it. This time was no different, except that they needed to ask more people. I'm not claiming that Gohan only gave a miniscule fraction of energy; I'm only saying that he didn't give his full power.

Given the way Mystic Gohan's fight with Buu went, I'd say he was at least equal to Buu, if not much stronger. The gap between Gohan and Buu certainly didn't seem to be significant in a Chaozu vs Nappa sort of way, anyway. So, why should a small portion of energy from someone not that much better than Buu be enough to make a Genkidama capable of defeating Buu?

You still haven't explained how Goku planned to generate the energy necessary to completely obliterate Majin Buu's body.

I hadn't realized I was supposed to...? My point was that Gokuu does believe he could have won, but he chose not to go all out the first time, and the energy factor interfered the second time, hence the need for a Genkidama. While other characters constantly make uninformed boasts, Gokuu has never been the type to do so, and has been shown to be a fighting genius. Normally, I agree with your stance on dialogue claims about power (such as the Tenshinhan/Kuririn issue in the other thread), but in this case, Gokuu is a rare exception who would not make such a claim if he didn't truly believe it.

So basically your entire argument is based on two lines of dialogue -- one where Goku ambiguously rambles about letting other people become the protectors of Earth (shortly after saying that it's likely he -couldn't- defeat Majin Buu) and one where he says that he -probably- could have beaten Buu. Each time Goku actually had the opportunity to destroy Buu using his own power he either didn't or failed.

My point was that the reason he said he couldn't have beaten Buu was because he wanted to let the boys do it, and he made no mention of it being due to a lack of power. I had also mentioned he does admit later that he was able to defeat Fat Buu (which I've since looked up specifically, and it's just before the final battle with Kid Buu).

Dialogue which isn't supported by the evidence doesn't make a solid argument.

True, but in this case, there is no evidence for or against it, and I see the particular claim as a very informed opinion which in itself could be evidence.

Every other time someone attacked "Fat" Buu he fought back almost immediately -- why would he suddenly become passive during his battle with Vegeta?

I can't say I fully understand why, but that's just the way it seemed to happen.

Fair enough, but that's immaterial to my original argument since Vegeta's ability to -withstand- several blows from "Kid" Buu demonstrates that the difference in power between Buu and Vegeta is less than the difference between the "enhanced" form of Perfect Cell and Super Saiya-jin Vegeta.

I'll give you this. However, what's to say that Kid Buu ever hit Vegeta with as much force as Cell did? There doesn't seem to be any way to tell. Furthermore, Vegeta wasn't actually knocked unconscious from Cell's blow; he was awake the entire time.

[James R. Cadwell]

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The first actual claim that he could have beaten Fat Buu with SSJ3 came on Kaioushin Kai before the final battle, after he'd learned plenty about the way Buu fights and regenerates.

At that point, I don't think he had seen Buu regenerate after being completely vaporized. Was there an instance before then where he had?

I'm not claiming that Gohan only gave a miniscule fraction of energy; I'm only saying that he didn't give his full power.

Why wouldn't he contribute all of his energy? The lives of his family and friends were at stake along with everyone else in the universe. That wouldn't have been the best time to be a stingy bastard. Gohan's never been reluctant to lend his power before; didn't he give his remaining energy away when Piccolo needed to distract Freeza while Goku formed the "Genki Dama" on Namek?

Given the way Mystic Gohan's fight with Buu went, I'd say he was at least equal to Buu, if not much stronger. The gap between Gohan and Buu certainly didn't seem to be significant in a Chaozu vs Nappa sort of way, anyway.

I remember "Super" Buu not being able to injure Mystic Gohan whatsoever, while Gohan was easily able to land blow after blow -- that's a little different from the Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs. "Fat" and "Kid" Buu battles where it was clear that the combatants were relatively equal.

So, why should a small portion of energy from someone not that much better than Buu be enough to make a Genkidama capable of defeating Buu?

You seem to be assuming that Gohan only contributed a little of his energy to the final "Genki Dama", despite the fact that your assumption is completely counter-intuitive.

I hadn't realized I was supposed to...? My point was that Gokuu does believe he could have won, but he chose not to go all out the first time, and the energy factor interfered the second time, hence the need for a Genkidama. While other characters constantly make uninformed boasts, Gokuu has never been the type to do so, and has been shown to be a fighting genius. Normally, I agree with your stance on dialogue claims about power (such as the Tenshinhan/Kuririn issue in the other thread), but in this case, Gokuu is a rare exception who would not make such a claim if he didn't truly believe it.

Okay, that's fair, and I do acknowledge that Goku -thinks- he could have beaten Majin Buu during their first battle. I'm just not convinced that Goku could have generated the required amount of energy.

My point was that the reason he said he couldn't have beaten Buu was because he wanted to let the boys do it, and he made no mention of it being due to a lack of power. I had also mentioned he does admit later that he was able to defeat Fat Buu (which I've since looked up specifically, and it's just before the final battle with Kid Buu).

Okay, but that brings us back to my original point about the reliability of dialogue -- even from an unimpeachable source it's -still- subjective unless it's a direct observation.

True, but in this case, there is no evidence for or against it, and I see the particular claim as a very informed opinion which in itself could be evidence.

The evidence against your argument would be that:

a.) Mystic Gohan's contribution did not increase the energy level of Goku's "Genki Dama" to the point where it would have killed Majin Buu.

b.) Goku was thoroughly exhausted after only a -brief- battle with "Fat" Buu on Earth -- that doesn't really support Goku's claim that he could have beaten Buu. That's even -worse- if Goku really wasn't trying his best to defeat Buu -- he was that fatigued after only making a half-effort?

I can't say I fully understand why, but that's just the way it seemed to happen.

I think a far more logical conclusion would be that Buu simply -couldn't- react until he had the opportunity to recover for a moment. It makes more sense than Buu passively allowing someone to beat the hell out of him.

I'll give you this. However, what's to say that Kid Buu ever hit Vegeta with as much force as Cell did? There doesn't seem to be any way to tell.

So "Kid" Buu was really a nice guy who decided not to use his full strength when he punched Vegeta? What reason is there to assume that Buu -didn't- use his full strength while he fought Vegeta?

Furthermore, Vegeta wasn't actually knocked unconscious from Cell's blow; he was awake the entire time.

Okay -- thanks for the correction. In any event, it seemed to me that Cell's single blow had more of an immediate effect on Vegeta than an equivalent attack from "Kid" Buu. Not that Buu didn't eventually inflict far more serious injuries -- Vegeta just seemed like he could withstand punishment from Buu more readily than he could from Cell, even -after- being revived.

BTW, compliments on your website.

[Dayspring]

So "Kid" Buu was really a nice guy who decided not to use his full strength when he punched Vegeta? What reason is there to assume that Buu -didn't- use his full strength while he fought Vegeta?

To make his suffering last longer: Boo's pure evil at this stage. Though I don't believe he didn't either. He was way stronger than Cell, as was Vegeta at that point.

[Zackarotto]

When Goku first became a Super Saiya-jin he only stayed in that form for what, five or ten minutes until after he defeated Freeza and escaped in one of the Ginyu spacepods? For all we know he collapsed from exhaustion immediately afterwards. We didn't really see Vegeta or Mirai no Trunks for long enough after they first became Super Saiya-jin to determine whether or not they rapidly lost power and reverted to their original forms, either. Maybe -all- Super Saiya-jin forms initially deplete power extremely quickly, until the Saiya-jin has learned to control his ki while using that transformation.

That's a great point that I never considered. We don't know how much of the year Gohan and Goku spent in the Room was spent trying to perfect the first level. I'm assuming each level would be harder to perfect than the last, so SSJ3 might take several years of transforming constantly and training in that state to be mastered. Or, spend much less than that time just to be able to stay in that form during a long fight. Thinking logically, you would have to do this before SSJ4 was even thinkable.

Still, just imagine being able to stay in SSJ4 all the time... I haven't seen enough GT to actually see SSJ4 with my own eyes, but I imagine that would be pretty hard.

[Dayspring]

SSJ4 sucks. You don't need SSJ1-3 to first attain it, just get exposed to (6x18 million) brute waves and you'll turn into a Golden Oozaru. Then get conscious control and you'll revert to SSJ4. That makes no sense since we see Golden Oozaru Vegeta with conscious control.

[Zackarotto]

Perhaps I just shouldn't bring SSJ4 into this at all, then.

Let me rephrase it. Just imagine being able to stay SSJ3 all the time.

[Dayspring]

Hee hee: Imagine SSJ3 Radditz? SSJ3 Goku just looks like SSJ1 Radditz with no eyebrows.

[Zackarotto]

I just picture him as an eyebrowless Raditz with hair that would go from the third floor of my house down all the stairs to my basement. Maybe that's an overstatement.

Either way, we know that Raditz couldn't ever get that strong. A better question though: Raditz as SSJ? Would all that hair actually stand up or what?

[TripleRach]

At that point, I don't think he had seen Buu regenerate after being completely vaporized. Was there an instance before then where he had?

Well, let's see. He watched Buu's battles with SSJ3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, in addition to his own first battle at SSJ3, and when he fought Vegetto. I don't recall Buu completely regenerating during any of those, however, Piccolo did inform Gokuu of the events of Buu's battle with Majin Vegeta. As I recall, Piccolo's explanation took place "off-camera", but it seems likely that he could have mentioned how Buu had fully regenerated, since it was a rather important detail. But, there really is no way to know for certain.

Why wouldn't he contribute all of his energy? The lives of his family and friends were at stake along with everyone else in the universe. That wouldn't have been the best time to be a stingy bastard. Gohan's never been reluctant to lend his power before; didn't he give his remaining energy away when Piccolo needed to distract Freeza while Goku formed the "Genki Dama" on Namek?

Well, to contribute all of his energy would probably mean death. But what I've been implying is, he didn't give all of his energy, because he obviously was stronger than Buu, and all of his energy alone should have been more than enough to make a Genkidama capable of defeating Buu.

I remember "Super" Buu not being able to injure Mystic Gohan whatsoever, while Gohan was easily able to land blow after blow -- that's a little different from the Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs. "Fat" and "Kid" Buu battles where it was clear that the combatants were relatively equal.

So Mystic Gohan certainly had an edge over Buu, yes? To me it looked as though Gohan would have won, had Buu not run off until he was able to absorb Gotenks.

You seem to be assuming that Gohan only contributed a little of his energy to the final "Genki Dama", despite the fact that your assumption is completely counter-intuitive.

As I said, I was implying that Gohan was at least equal to or better than Buu, and you also seem to believe he was better. If he had contributed all, or at least a very high percentage, of his energy to the Genkidama, that alone would have undoubtedly been enough to finish Buu. But since Gohan's energy alone was very insufficient, I get the impression that Gohan did not give 100% of his energy.

Okay, that's fair, and I do acknowledge that Goku -thinks- he could have beaten Majin Buu during their first battle. I'm just not convinced that Goku could have generated the required amount of energy.

Well, I suppose if that isn't enough to convince you, then there isn't much point in my arguing it any further.

Okay, but that brings us back to my original point about the reliability of dialogue -- even from an unimpeachable source it's -still- subjective unless it's a direct observation.

Again, that is the main point of my argument, and so if it's not enough, I don't have much else to go from.

The evidence against your argument would be that:

a.) Mystic Gohan's contribution did not increase the energy level of Goku's "Genki Dama" to the point where it would have killed Majin Buu.

b.) Goku was thoroughly exhausted after only a -brief- battle with "Fat" Buu on Earth -- that doesn't really support Goku's claim that he could have beaten Buu. That's even -worse- if Goku really wasn't trying his best to defeat Buu -- he was that fatigued after only making a half-effort?

a) I believe that Mystic Gohan was stronger than Buu, or at the very least, equal in power with some sort of advantage. This is why I believe he did not contribute 100% of his energy, because if he did, it would have killed Majin Buu.

b) Well, Gokuu has won battles with worse problems than fatigue; just look at his final battle with Piccolo Sr. I wouldn't put it past him.

As for everything else, I think I may have to agree with you that SSJ2 is a bit more effective against Buu than SSJ was against Cell. I threw in the idea that Cell hit with more force than Buu as a mere possibility, and nothing more. But it doesn't seem like either of us will relent on the issue as to whether or not SSJ3 Gokuu was capable of defeating Buu, so perhaps we should agree to disagree? Normally, I'm stubborn enough in these things to go on forever, but I'll be the first to concede for once. It's been a pleasure to argue with you. gg

BTW, compliments on your website.

Thanks. But I am presently working to improve the content, redesign it, and probably move things to a faster server.

[Zackarotto]

I find it strange that SSJ2 is such a small change visually from SSJ, yet SSJ3 is far different from SSJ2 in appearance, if SSJ-SSJ2 is more of a difference in power. Maybe the more one changes physically, the less one changes in terms of power, and vice-versa?

[PsyLiam]

A better question though: Raditz as SSJ? Would all that hair actually stand up or what?

Partially. It would still go down his back, but bit's would stick up from that. Gohan had hair of a similar length when he first turned Super Saiyan, remember?

And "Raditz as SSJ 3" arguments are the worst form of HILARIOUS DBZ HUMOUR ever. Right after talking about Oolong and Vegeta fusing.

[James R. Cadwell]

Well, let's see. He watched Buu's battles with SSJ3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, in addition to his own first battle at SSJ3, and when he fought Vegetto. I don't recall Buu completely regenerating during any of those, however, Piccolo did inform Gokuu of the events of Buu's battle with Majin Vegeta. As I recall, Piccolo's explanation took place "off-camera", but it seems likely that he could have mentioned how Buu had fully regenerated, since it was a rather important detail. But, there really is no way to know for certain.

I'm not sure that Majin Buu was vaporized when Vegeta self-destructed -- wasn't he just blown into many tiny pieces?

Well, to contribute all of his energy would probably mean death. But what I've been implying is, he didn't give all of his energy, because he obviously was stronger than Buu, and all of his energy alone should have been more than enough to make a Genkidama capable of defeating Buu.

Unless being physically stronger than Majin Buu doesn't mean that you have the "ki" required to destroy his body.

So Mystic Gohan certainly had an edge over Buu, yes? To me it looked as though Gohan would have won, had Buu not run off until he was able to absorb Gotenks.

I think that Gohan definitely would have been able to -overwhelm- Majin Buu with his speed and strength, but I don't believe that Mystic Gohan could generate the energy necessary to destroy Buu, either.

As I said, I was implying that Gohan was at least equal to or better than Buu, and you also seem to believe he was better. If he had contributed all, or at least a very high percentage, of his energy to the Genkidama, that alone would have undoubtedly been enough to finish Buu. But since Gohan's energy alone was very insufficient, I get the impression that Gohan did not give 100% of his energy.

There's really two explanations here:

1.) Yours, which implies that Gohan acted completely out of character and didn't contribute as much energy as possible to the "Genki Dama", despite the fact that he -possessed- the power to destroy Majin Buu.

2.) Mine, which assumes that Gohan behaved exactly as he should considering the precedents established earlier in the series and donated -all- the energy he could to the "Genki Dama" -- it just wasn't enough to kill Buu.

I thought I should clarify something before continuing. I think that being -physically- stronger and faster than Majin Buu even by a large margin doesn't necessarily mean that it's possible to -kill- him. There's a difference between being capable of overwhelming Buu with your abilities and being able to produce the sheer energy necessary to obliterate Buu's body and prevent him from regenerating.

I believe that Mystic Gohan was stronger than Buu, or at the very least, equal in power with some sort of advantage. This is why I believe he did not contribute 100% of his energy, because if he did, it would have killed Majin Buu.

I think that's something of a logical fallacy. You're making the assumption that being equal in power to Majin Buu or stronger means that you have the energy necessary to destroy him. That's kind of the crux of my argument -- Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku might have been equal with Majin Buu in power, but I don't think he was strong enough to -destroy- Buu.

b) Well, Gokuu has won battles with worse problems than fatigue; just look at his final battle with Piccolo Sr. I wouldn't put it past him.

When Goku is fatigued as a Super Saiya-jin 3, there's a risk that he might revert back to his normal form -- which is far too weak to pose any threat to Majin Buu.

As for everything else, I think I may have to agree with you that SSJ2 is a bit more effective against Buu than SSJ was against Cell. I threw in the idea that Cell hit with more force than Buu as a mere possibility, and nothing more. But it doesn't seem like either of us will relent on the issue as to whether or not SSJ3 Gokuu was capable of defeating Buu, so perhaps we should agree to disagree? Normally, I'm stubborn enough in these things to go on forever, but I'll be the first to concede for once. It's been a pleasure to argue with you. gg

I think I can manage agreeing to disagree.

[Gohan-kun]

I sincerely hope you aren't stating that Gohan wouldn't have what it takes to beat Kid Boo. The Genki Dama doesn't work in the fashion your portraying. Going by your logic, Freeza > Mystic Gohan+Goten+Trunks+Piccolo. The genki they gave to the Genki Dama was smaller than the Genki Dama Goku used on Planet Namek, which was only derived from plants, and animals, and the like, and Freeza was able to survive it. So we use your logic, Freeza is stronger than the strongest unfused character, plus three others. Therefore the Genki Dama doesn't work in the fashion you think it does.

As Rachel said, you don't give your full power. Its not even really about power, rather Genki. If it were about power, don't you think Trunks and Goten would have fused into Gotenks, THEN give their Genki? Doesn't work that way my friend. SSJ3 Goku at Full Power, as he states, (Vegeta too), would have enough ki to abolish Boo. Even SSJ3 Gotenks was about to abolish Boo with a Kamehame-Ha, and Boo was damn well aware of it, and was completely relieved when the fusion wore off.

"You're making the assumption that being equal in power to Majin Buu or stronger means that you have the energy necessary to destroy him. That's kind of the crux of my argument -- Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku might have been equal with Majin Buu in power, but I don't think he was strong enough to -destroy- Buu. "

How is that so? Even SSJ Gotenks and Piccolo could have beaten Boo. Rewind back to the Room of Spirit and Time where Gotenks used his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack. Boo was in pieces and they decided to burn him up. But burning him up caused his smoke to reform. Piccolo then states "Dammit! We should have used our ki to completely obliterate him, instead of just burning him up." This is exactly what SSJ3 Gotenks was going to do to Super Boo. Quote: "Now to finish you! I'm going to blow you into chunks, then to pieces, then to shreds, then to tiny bits. This time not even you will be able to return to normal. Once I blow you apart, I'm going to completely whipe you out with my ki, you see?" *boo looks terrified*