'Controlling one's battle power' Confusion

[Piccolo Daimao]

There are a few other examples that might lend themselves to the above idea. Videl doesn't know what ki is, so you wouldn't think she could change her battle power at will, yet her ki only becomes noticeable to Gohan once she starts fighting. I used to think this meant that her battle power did increase, like others have suggested Vegeta and Nappa's might have, but taking what I said above into account, it might be that her ki just became more noticeable to ki sensing. If a scouter had been pointed at her at that moment, maybe it wouldn't have registered a change in her numerical battle power at all.

I think, with Videl, it's similar to what Vegeta and Nappa were doing, but without a visible aura. She was just getting prepared for a battle. I think someone else had an analogy that had something to do with a river and it splashing up, so there technically wasn't more water; it just may've looked like there was because it was being flared.

And yeah, Vegeta's shocked when Freeza powers up in his second form, saying this:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…”

Implying that what Freeza did before in his first form wasn't controlling his power, and probably more akin to just surfacing his ki, like Nappa did. Of course, this isn't apparent to natural ki-sensors, who can actually sense the difference, unlike scouters. This is an advantage, but a minor one, and overall, natural ki-sensing is better than reliance on a scouter to do so. I mean, what happens when you don't have a scouter

Also, if I haven't mentioned it already - to clarify, Ginyuu and Freeza can control their battle power at will, like the Earthlings, but not to the full degree that they can, as they can't suppress it all the way down to zero. And they can't sense ki either. So, for example, Ginyuu can go from ~90k (when he fought evenly with Gokuu) to 120k, but he wouldn't be able to drop below that and/or completely mask his ki.

[Fox666]

To be fair, if at the beggining Goku was having a close battle with Freeza, that means he was using 2 or 3% of his power. That's very low. But I guess he can't do more than that, since he needs to transform to lower his power after that point.

[Bussani]

I think, with Videl, it's similar to what Vegeta and Nappa were doing, but without a visible aura. She was just getting prepared for a battle. I think someone else had an analogy that had something to do with a river and it splashing up, so there technically wasn't more water; it just may've looked like there was because it was being flared.

That's how I try to look at it these days, too. Using an ocean as an analogy also works: the amount of water may not change, but being on a raft in a calm sea is far less terrifying than being on a raft in the middle of a storm. What I find interesting is that they apparently couldn't tell Vegeta was the strongest of the two, which seems to imply that they would have trouble accurately comparing two calm oceans, even though they could tell that both were huge from the get go.

[Son_Gohan]

And yeah, Vegeta's shocked when Freeza powers up in his second form, saying this:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…”

Implying that what Freeza did before in his first form wasn't controlling his power, and probably more akin to just surfacing his ki, like Nappa did. Of course, this isn't apparent to natural ki-sensors, who can actually sense the difference, unlike scouters. This is an advantage, but a minor one, and overall, natural ki-sensing is better than reliance on a scouter to do so. I mean, what happens when you don't have a scouter

I'm thinking that Toriyama just dropped the ball here.

If it was expressed that his Ki became larger the first time he did it, then there is no dispute that he was controlling his power then. Yet Vegeta makes it seem as if it were something new when Freeza powers up later on.

Must've not thought it through very well.

[matt0044]

^Not so much new so much as it's a surprise Freeza's able to do it (minus sensing others and lowing his power to zero).

[Cipher]

A lot of people don't seem to like this idea because it implies scouters may have had some sort of advantage over ki sensing--that is, that it can tell a person's "true strength" before they start fighting, whereas a person who can sense ki can't. I suppose that's true in a way, but only when pointing your scouter at someone who can't change their battle power.

Yep. I agree with this, and absolutely love the explanation Kaboom offered, which is one of the best synthesized analyses of what the series gives us I've seen.

Scouters may have an advantage over ki-sensing when the first appear, or against those who can't truly manipulate their ki (ignoring their propensity to explode at certain power levels), but as the real ki manipulators are undeniably the more nuanced, dangerous opponents, and indeed almost the only sort of fighters we see as either heroes or villains past the Freeza arc, any advantage the Scouters would have had is moot.

I can't say they're inherently inferior though. From what people in this thread have pointed out, they seem to have basically the same function as sensing. That is, a suppressed Gohan would read a "5" on a Scouter, and also be difficult to sense. When he raises his power to attack, others would both be capable of sensing him and would see his Scouter number increase. It's only the assumption that Scouters always display the full power of their subject that gets Freeza's men in trouble. Because, up to that point, it's been true for most races they've encountered. Someone using Scouters without that assumption could benefit from them, but really, what's the point?

[dbgtFO]

I too agree with the others. I have basically said the same, since I started out here in 2010, when I saw this subject brought up in a thread similar to this.
Admittedly Toriyama didn't explain it well and we have to come up with this explanation for it to make sense or just consider it a plothole, but looking at the evidence like Bussani did and coming to that conclusion is what I prefer over just saying: "It's clearly a plothole. Natural ki-sensing is not worse than scouters, therefore that theory is wrong." Like in that last thread about this topic.

Besides the idea isn't saying natural ki-sensing is inferior in every way. Surely an ability to sense ki, like Goku and co. had, though inferior in some aspects to a scouter, is better than having your only way of telling what's what blown up, because a subject's power has surpassed its range.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

I've always perceived it in the context of being able to mask your ki, or suppress it. None of the villians ever seem to have the ki control that Earthlings do. For example, Goku on Namek only read at 5,000, but he was able to burst his ki for split seconds, which enabled him to dish out pain with no one knowing how powerful he really was (we all know his real base was at least 85,000).

Also Raditz was astounded by Goku and Piccolo's abilities to increase the power of their attacks by condensing their ki into a single point, but he didn't seem surprised when Gohan powered up his whole body. Well, he was surprised, but only at how strong Gohan was. So to me it seems possible that he knew about powering up the body, but not about manipulating ki in a way where it only increases the power of attacks, leaving a fighter able to dish out attacks stronger then his base power over and over again.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Also Raditz was astounded by Goku and Piccolo's abilities to increase the power of their attacks by condensing their ki into a single point, but he didn't seem surprised when Gohan powered up his whole body. Well, he was surprised, but only at how strong Gohan was. So to me it seems possible that he knew about powering up the body, but not about manipulating ki in a way where it only increases the power of attacks, leaving a fighter able to dish out attacks stronger then his base power over and over again.

And Raditz was supposedly meant to be working with a guy who can basically perform a version of Gokuu's Kamehameha. I'm talking about Vegeta and his Galick Gun.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Also Raditz was astounded by Goku and Piccolo's abilities to increase the power of their attacks by condensing their ki into a single point, but he didn't seem surprised when Gohan powered up his whole body. Well, he was surprised, but only at how strong Gohan was. So to me it seems possible that he knew about powering up the body, but not about manipulating ki in a way where it only increases the power of attacks, leaving a fighter able to dish out attacks stronger then his base power over and over again.

And Raditz was supposedly meant to be working with a guy who can basically perform a version of Gokuu's Kamehameha. I'm talking about Vegeta and his Galick Gun.

I agree. But Vegeta had to power up his whole body (his aura shows this), there's no suggestion that he can increase the power of his attacks by simply concentrating his ki into a point like Goku and Piccolo can. But the only time he ever shows the Galick Gun is in his fight with Goku, so we can't know if he could perform the Galick Gun without powering up.

[Vice]

Perhaps what they're talking about is how Goku and the earthlings are able to lower their power level all the way down to 1, or whatever doesn't register on the scouters or can be sensed, whereas the villains had a set suppressed state that they couldn't lower any further?

[shonenhikada]

Perhaps what they're talking about is how Goku and the earthlings are able to lower their power level all the way down to 1, or whatever doesn't register on the scouters or can be sensed, whereas the villains had a set suppressed state that they couldn't lower any further?

This is what i said to but everyone said i was wrong.

[Bussani]

Perhaps what they're talking about is how Goku and the earthlings are able to lower their power level all the way down to 1, or whatever doesn't register on the scouters or can be sensed, whereas the villains had a set suppressed state that they couldn't lower any further?

All of Vegeta and Nappa's dialogue seems to indicate that their battle powers don't change at all. They say things like, "These people change their battle powers when they start fighting," and, "This reading of 5,000 may only be for starters because the people here can alter their figures." If it was just that they and Freeza's men couldn't suppress themselves below a certain point, but still altered their figures somewhat when they started fighting, then they shouldn't be saying it like it's something exclusive to the Earthlings.

[Vice]

All of Vegeta and Nappa's dialogue seems to indicate that their battle powers don't change at all. They say things like, "These people change their battle powers when they start fighting," and, "This reading of 5,000 may only be for starters because the people here can alter their figures." If it was just that they and Freeza's men couldn't suppress themselves below a certain point, but still altered their figures somewhat when they started fighting, then they shouldn't be saying it like it's something exclusive to the Earthlings.

And yet both Nappa and Vegeta powered up before their fights. In fact Vegeta went from trading blows with a Kaio-Ken Goku, to effortlessly owning him by powering up. This obviously indicates that they have a resting state and a powered up state.

[Xyex]

All of Vegeta and Nappa's dialogue seems to indicate that their battle powers don't change at all. They say things like, "These people change their battle powers when they start fighting," and, "This reading of 5,000 may only be for starters because the people here can alter their figures." If it was just that they and Freeza's men couldn't suppress themselves below a certain point, but still altered their figures somewhat when they started fighting, then they shouldn't be saying it like it's something exclusive to the Earthlings.

And yet both Nappa and Vegeta powered up before their fights. In fact Vegeta went from trading blows with a Kaio-Ken Goku, to effortlessly owning him by powering up. This obviously indicates that they have a resting state and a powered up state.

Perhaps, but even if that's the case their number doesn't change. That's the difference between Earth and everyone else. The Earth fighters can actually reduce the amount of energy they generate. Everyone else can only reduce the amount of energy they're controlling. The former gives a lower reading on scouters, the latter never shows a change on scouters.

[Kaboom]

In other even shorter words, the space-thug can only change how much ki he uses, while the Earthling warriors can actually change how much they have.

[shonenhikada]

In other even shorter words, the space-thug can only change how much ki he uses, while the Earthling warriors can actually change how much they have.

So your telling me all of Freeza's men such as Dodoria and Zarbon are constantly at 22,000, without showing signs of fatigue or strain ? If you answer is yes, then why do the Z-senshi need to power up if they can constantly maintain this BP without any strain ?

[VegettoEX]

(Let's temporarily ignore Zarbon, since he has a transformation where its entire purpose is to affect the amount of power there is at his disposal.)

Yes, it seems that Toriyama's point was that characters like Dodoria always have "X" (whatever battle power that is assigned to them) at their disposal. They can use some of it, they can use all of it, but they can never change how much that number is (without, for example, training, learning new techniques, etc. -- on any given day, their power will still be "X" the same as it was the day before, and the same as it will be the next day).

I don't see how being fatigued affects anything for them. Dodoria's battle power reading would be "X" after being smashed to a pulp, the same as it would be before his fight. Again, it seems Toriyama's entire point for writing these characters the way he did and explaining how scouters work and how the Earthlings are different than everyone else was to reenforce this idea that "villains who can't control their ki levels will always be X no matter what".

That's not the case with characters like Gohan, who seem to be able to tap into power reserves that even they don't personally know about or can fully control (see: fight against Raditz, few attacks against Freeza, Cell prodding him along).

[shonenhikada]

(Let's temporarily ignore Zarbon, since he has a transformation where its entire purpose is to affect the amount of power there is at his disposal.)

Yes, it seems that Toriyama's point was that characters like Dodoria always have "X" (whatever battle power that is assigned to them) at their disposal. They can use some of it, they can use all of it, but they can never change how much that number is (without, for example, training, learning new techniques, etc. -- on any given day, their power will still be "X" the same as it was the day before, and the same as it will be the next day).

I don't see how being fatigued affects anything for them. Dodoria's battle power reading would be "X" after being smashed to a pulp, the same as it would be before his fight. Again, it seems Toriyama's entire point for writing these characters the way he did and explaining how scouters work and how the Earthlings are different than everyone else was to reenforce this idea that "villains who can't control their ki levels will always be X no matter what".

That's not the case with characters like Gohan, who seem to be able to tap into power reserves that even they don't personally know about or can fully control (see: fight against Raditz, few attacks against Freeza, Cell prodding him along).

It has been shown numerous times in the series that BP goes down when someone uses up to much ki, or is getting their butt kicked.

[VegettoEX]

I kinda agree, but that doesn't seem to be the point Toriyama was making early on with how he described Vegeta/Nappa/etc. as reading folks via scouters. Perhaps it's one of those distinctions between using a scouter and sensing them naturally without technology?

Or, like I was talking about on the podcast episode, it's something you have to just skim over because once you start delving in too deep and picking it apart, Toriyama's explanations are no longer self-consistent .