Gohan a SSJ2 in the Family Kamehameha when Goku said "NOW!"?

[Hitiro]

This might be a bit outlandish but could it possibly be that Gohan went SSJ2 and Goku was standing slightly further back than his boys and his hair was pushed back by the wind generated from both his sons kamehameha's? That's just my thought.

[Mystic Gohan]

I'd be inclined to believe that Gohan turns into a SSjin 2 during the final push, but Goku not so much. I've seen the artwork that depicts Goku as a SSjin 2, but the actualy movie shows Goku's hair being pushed back by the KHH. Why it doesn't effect Goten, I could not answer, but all the same Goku being a SSjin 2 is unlikely IMO.

I wouldnt find it too hard to believe Gohan going SSJ2 its just the Goku thing. Plus the official art for SSJ2 Goku wasnt even around yet. Toei had no idea what SSJ2 Goku would look like at this time so I highly highly doubt Goku was a SSJ2.

Yeah this is essentially my opinion as well.

[Zephyr]

I've seen no case where a character has overestimated what he was capable of destroying. Yeah there is that whole "I'm the strongest in the universe!" thing but in terms of what they are actually capable of they have never really lied or boasted. Cell would be the only 1 if he was and since there is no other evidence to back that claim up I see no reason to consider it hyperbole especially since he had no reason to bluff.

Even if there be no cases of a character overestimating what they're capable of destroying, there are countless examples of character overestimating what they were capable of doing, and "destroying" something falls entirely within the realms of "doing" something.

And although he had no reason necessarily to bluff, he also had no reason not to bluff. It can really go either way as there's no evidence to support either side. I just choose to take what he said with a grain of salt, because these characters have a habit of overestimating themselves, and in the case of evil, vindictive, malicious characters like Vegeta, Freeza, and Cell, it's not a stretch to assume that they make such boasts at times simply to see more an increased sense of terror in their already hopeless victims' faces. They're sick in the head like that.

[dario03]

I'd be willing to believe that Toei may have figured on Goku being a Super Saiyan 2 (wouldn't exactly be difficult to see coming), but had to guess as to his appearance in the form if he hadn't premiered it in the manga yet. Sort of like a less drastic version of "Super Saiyan" from movie 4.

I myself find it hard to believe that Goku was a SSJ2. The thing is the Family Kamehameha hit the sun and it didnt blow it up. Yet Cell claims he can destroy the Solar System. I dont think he is an actual solar system buster like a one hit sort of thing but regardless he should be able to destroy the sun and since Broly was killed by something that didnt destroy something Cell could destroy I find it hard to believe that Broly is above Cell let alone SSJ2 Goku. However thats just me.

The power of a energy attack doesn't seem to be the deciding factor on if it will destroy something or not. It seems that the attack needs to have the intent to destroy something or can somehow be contained. For instance Freeza was shown destroying planets but yet Majin Vegeta who is way way stronger self destructing on Earth some how doesn't cause any major damage to the Earth. And in GT SS4 Goku shoots Baby into the sun with a Kamehameha and it doesn't do anything to the sun.
And if power was the only deciding factor and Cell was capable of blowing up the sun then the family KHH probably could of done it even if they were only SS1. Vegeta says that Goku SS2 is stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell and SS2 is stated as being only 2x SS1. So I don't think its much of a stretch to say that a family KHH at SS1 could be around SS2 kid/teen Gohan in strength who was around Super Perfect Cell in strength.
And Broly being killed by the family KHH and the sun doesn't necessarily mean that he is weaker than Cell. He might be, or it could just be the KHH + the heat from the sun killed him. I'm not so sure DBZ characters can handle heat all that great. Freeza thought lava would kill Goku and Gohan even thought lava would kill Broly. So even if Cell could blow up the sun, he and characters around his strength might not be able to handle its heat or even have to be stronger than the sun to destory it (maybe Cell could some how disrupt it, its not like the sun is sentient and would fight back).
And personally I think disrupting the Sun is the only way he could destroy it or I think Cell was bluffing. Maybe he wasn't but the Sun is different than anything else that is destroyed in the manga so I'm not so sure he really knew if he could do it or not. Of course if we're talking about movies and anime then he most likely could since they decided that Broly could wipe out a galaxy just for the heck of it.

For the original question I always figured Gohan was SS2 and that Goku maybe was. Just makes more sense to me logically but I don't put to much thought into it any more since its a movie which makes even less sense than the show which already has enough holes.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If this is an actual screencap or cel from the movie, then it seems strange for the "wind" to have pushed back Gohan and Goku's hair, but not Goten's.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d81/K ... 1yqrd0.jpg

It also seems strange for you to draw that conclusion from such an undetailed screencap that's presumably between shots. It would seem even stranger that (as I detailed in my previous post), for some reason, Gokuu and Gohan (especially Gohan, who had been injured by Broli and assumedly lost the energy to become a SS2 again) would only become SS2s at the last minute.

Isn't it easier to just assume that it was the wind/shock of the Kamehameha that blew their hair back? And isn't there another screencap or something that shows Goten's hair blown back along with Gokuu and Gohan's? Either way, if Goten's hair wasn't blown back, you could easily handwave it away with the explanation that, being shorter and younger, his hair and/or bangs (specifically, bangs) are shorter and, therefore, wouldn't be blown back by the Kamehameha.

(Besides, Gohan always had one bang in both his SS and SS2 appearances; at least, at the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai. But, apart from the lightning sparks — which we know Toei is inconsistent with anyway — there’s about as much discernible difference between Gohan’s SS and SS2 appearance as there is with Vegeta. So then, your only argument would be why the wind only blew back Gokuu’s hair, but not Gohan or Goten’s.)

If this is an actual screencap or cel from the movie, then it seems strange for the "wind" to have pushed back Gohan and Goku's hair, but not Goten's.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d81/K ... 1yqrd0.jpg

I guess it's the wind. Son Goku misses a strand of hair on the left side of his forehead. Also the other strands on top of his head look more wavy, due to the wind certainly.
http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/p ... 8_ssj2.jpg
These three indicate SSJ2.

I'd be willing to believe that Toei may have figured on Goku being a Super Saiyan 2 (wouldn't exactly be difficult to see coming), but had to guess as to his appearance in the form if he hadn't premiered it in the manga yet. Sort of like a less drastic version of "Super Saiyan" from movie 4.

Now that's a stretch, you gotta admit. It's a completely baseless conclusion to come to.

Anyway, I think we really need to take a step back and realize that we’re actually over-analyzing something as petty as hair bangs and wind from an insignificant screencap(s) in a Shounen cartoon headed by such a cheap and inconsistent animation company as Toei.

I mean, if we're really going to do this, how about I point out that in the screencap you linked to, Kaboom, all three of those Super Saiyans now inexplicably have purple ki auras? I guess Frog-Ginyuu escaped from Capsule Corporation and momentarily possessed their bodies, right?

[Kaboom]

Just pointing out an interesting, easy-to-miss little detail, is all. It's a good little piece of support for those of us who do fancy the idea that they whipped SSj2 back out in that last burst. It'd certainly help explain the big jump in power.

And everything's all purply-blue because you're looking at them through a Kamehameha in that shot, knucklehead.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Just pointing out an interesting, easy-to-miss little detail, is all. It's a good little piece of support for those of us who do fancy the idea that they whipped SSj2 back out in that last burst. It'd certainly help explain the big jump in power.

And everything's all purply-blue because you're looking at them through a Kamehameha in that shot, knucklehead.

Hidden potential can explain the increase as well. Gohan has received power ups as great as a 10x boost in the Frieza Saga with his hidden potential.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Just pointing out an interesting, easy-to-miss little detail, is all. It's a good little piece of support for those of us who do fancy the idea that they whipped SSj2 back out in that last burst. It'd certainly help explain the big jump in power.

OK, fair enough. But I think the big jump in power was just dramatic licence; a way to finish the film. It makes about as much sense as the (not sure if confirmed) "Kaiouken x100" Gokuu pulled out against Giant Slug towards the end of their fight when he never used so much as a regular Kaiouken when he was actually getting his ass beaten, or the Toei Punch in DBZ Movie #8, and DBZ Movie #10 is technically a sequel of sorts to the latter film.

Basically, movies make no fucking sense, and I just don't see the point in trying to make Gokuu and Gohan SS2 when there's actually very little evidence to support that. It's just easier to assume that they were all regular Super Saiyan, because they all started out that way during the beam struggle, and other than the Toei-inconsistent appearances of the hair (also, remember that this is the Boo era we're talking about here; Gohan's initial fight with Broli is practically the only confirmed example we have of him actually fighting someone in his rarely-seen-since-the-Cell-Games SS2 form), there's no real reason or relevance for Gohan to suddenly regain his lost ki and turn SS2 in such an ambiguous and undetailed shot like that.

Again, we're talking about hair strands and wind. In a Shounen anime for pre-teen boys. Animated and scripted by Toei, of all companies. It's like trying to find deeper meaning in the majority of '80s Saturday morning cartoons.

And everything's all purply-blue because you're looking at them through a Kamehameha in that shot, knucklehead.

So? It's still the same line of flawed logic. And Kamehamehas aren't meant to be purple anyway, so why would the audience looking at those three Super Saiyans (traditionally bearing golden auras in the anime) through a Kamehameha suddenly make them have purple auras now?

Just pointing out an interesting, easy-to-miss little detail, is all. It's a good little piece of support for those of us who do fancy the idea that they whipped SSj2 back out in that last burst. It'd certainly help explain the big jump in power.

And everything's all purply-blue because you're looking at them through a Kamehameha in that shot, knucklehead.

Hidden potential can explain the increase as well. Gohan has received power ups as great as a 10x boost in the Freeza Saga with his hidden potential.

Gohan was never stated or shown to have experienced a "dormant power rage boost" since his initial SS2 transformation back at the Cell Games (and even then, you could argue that the rage was just a catalyst for the transformation, no different from Gokuu or Vegeta's initial SS transformation), and as DBZ Movie #10 looks strongly as if it's set in the Majin Boo era and Gohan later says, in the manga's Boo arc, that he can't gain power from rage like when he was a child, it's unlikely that he would've somehow gotten one here, especially when there's arguably not that much for him to get angry about.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

[Kaboom]

I'm not sure why all the argument, really.

"Goku and Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 at the end" is just one possible way to explain the movie's finale, and the picture CAN be used as support of it. I too don't usually care too much about over-analyzing hair strands and all, but other people were already talking about it, so I provided the picture because nobody else had yet. What's the big deal?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm not sure why all the argument, really.

"Goku and Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 at the end" is just one possible way to explain the movie's finale, and the picture CAN be used as support of it. I too don't usually care too much about over-analyzing hair strands and all, but other people were already talking about it, so I provided the picture because nobody else had yet. What's the big deal?

I guess I was being a bit pedantic, maybe like some other people here (but not necessarily you, though). Sorry.

[Bussani]

The power of a energy attack doesn't seem to be the deciding factor on if it will destroy something or not. It seems that the attack needs to have the intent to destroy something or can somehow be contained. For instance Freeza was shown destroying planets but yet Majin Vegeta who is way way stronger self destructing on Earth some how doesn't cause any major damage to the Earth. And in GT SS4 Goku shoots Baby into the sun with a Kamehameha and it doesn't do anything to the sun.

Those are really good points. On top of that, I'm not even sure being able to destroy something means that the person could also survive the attack they use to destroy something. Early on in the story, maybe, but as everyone gets more and more powerful and the ki attacks get larger and larger, I'm not sure if their durability keeps up. Take Perfect Cell, for example: even holding back, he was much more powerful than "Super Vegeta", yet that Final Flash would have been the end of him if not for his regeneration. If Cell, who's stronger than Vegeta, gets half of his body blown away by the Final Flash, Vegeta himself would probably also be blown to bits by the same attack, right?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan's statement, if he ever said he couldnt gain power from rage in the movie which I dont remember being stated at all, is irreverent. Gohan can say whatever he wants that doesnt make it relevant especially when you consider Gohan doubts himself when he was fighting Cell. He said his power was cut in half and that he couldnt win. Well that wasnt the case at all. Furthermore this movie takes place before that quote so I dont see how thats a valid point. I would also imagine that Gohan received a slight anger boost when he showed off SSJ2 at the Budokai. He was angry that he was gonna be exposed and that Spopovitch beat the crap out of Videl. This would explain why he never goes SSJ2 past the Budokai, he just wasnt angry enough. It would also explain how Gohan almost filled half of Buu's power. I dont think a standard SSJ2 Gohan would even come close to almost half of Buu's power. I see no reason to discard the possibility of hidden power boost.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gohan's statement, if he ever said he couldnt gain power from rage in the movie which I dont remember being stated at all, is irreverent. Gohan can say whatever he wants that doesnt make it relevant especially when you consider Gohan doubts himself when he was fighting Cell. He said his power was cut in half and that he couldnt win. Well that wasnt the case at all. Furthermore this movie takes place before that quote so I dont see how thats a valid point. I would also imagine that Gohan received a slight anger boost when he showed off SSJ2 at the Budokai. He was angry that he was gonna be exposed and that Spopovitch beat the crap out of Videl. This would explain why he never goes SSJ2 past the Budokai, he just wasnt angry enough. It would also explain how Gohan almost filled half of Buu's power. I dont think a standard SSJ2 Gohan would even come close to almost half of Buu's power. I see no reason to discard the possibility of hidden power boost.

I should've clarified: Gohan says that in the manga's Boo arc, and probably in the original Japanese version of the anime too, since that's what it's adapted from. But it's not irrelevant. Gohan flat-out says, as he's preparing himself to fight the guy that's stoned his two best friends (one of which being his mentor and practically his second father), that he's "angry, but not like it was back then". To me, that strongly suggests that, because he didn't train enough in the past 7 years, he's lost his unique ability to gain incredible power from rage. Why would he doubt himself now, when he's already killed Cell and, after Dabra challenged all three of them to come at him, said, "No, you're fighting me" and appeared quite sure and/or confident of himself?

And so what if this film takes place before that quote? We still have to take it into account as part of the wider world of discussion or whatever. That's like ignoring a discussion about Gokuu's possible Zenkais in pre-Z DB because he wasn't retconned as a Saiyan until the Saiyan arc. And who ever said that Gohan needs anger just to transform into SS2 after he's already done it once? I don't think you can call him being really angry at the 25th TB, when he wasn't even close to being as angry as he was before when he got a rage boost? He was nowhere near as angry against Kibito as he was when Spopovich beat Videl, so why would he still be angry about it, especially now that Videl had been healed with the Senzu?

Anyway, forget it, I'm done with this. It's not worth bothering myself over such a silly little thing anyway.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan's statement, if he ever said he couldnt gain power from rage in the movie which I dont remember being stated at all, is irreverent. Gohan can say whatever he wants that doesnt make it relevant especially when you consider Gohan doubts himself when he was fighting Cell. He said his power was cut in half and that he couldnt win. Well that wasnt the case at all. Furthermore this movie takes place before that quote so I dont see how thats a valid point. I would also imagine that Gohan received a slight anger boost when he showed off SSJ2 at the Budokai. He was angry that he was gonna be exposed and that Spopovitch beat the crap out of Videl. This would explain why he never goes SSJ2 past the Budokai, he just wasnt angry enough. It would also explain how Gohan almost filled half of Buu's power. I dont think a standard SSJ2 Gohan would even come close to almost half of Buu's power. I see no reason to discard the possibility of hidden power boost.

I should've clarified: Gohan says that in the manga's Boo arc, and probably in the original Japanese version of the anime too, since that's what it's adapted from. But it's not irrelevant. Gohan flat-out says, as he's preparing himself to fight the guy that's stoned his two best friends (one of which being his mentor and practically his second father), that he's "angry, but not like it was back then". To me, that strongly suggests that, because he didn't train enough in the past 7 years, he's lost his unique ability to gain incredible power from rage. Why would he doubt himself now, when he's already killed Cell and, after Dabra challenged all three of them to come at him, said, "No, you're fighting me" and appeared quite sure and/or confident of himself?

And so what if this film takes place before that quote? We still have to take it into account as part of the wider world of discussion or whatever. That's like ignoring a discussion about Gokuu's possible Zenkais in pre-Z DB because he wasn't retconned as a Saiyan until the Saiyan arc. And who ever said that Gohan needs anger just to transform into SS2 after he's already done it once? I don't think you can call him being really angry at the 25th TB, when he wasn't even close to being as angry as he was before when he got a rage boost? He was nowhere near as angry against Kibito as he was when Spopovich beat Videl, so why would he still be angry about it, especially now that Videl had been healed with the Senzu?

Anyway, forget it, I'm done with this. It's not worth bothering myself over such a silly little thing anyway.

Dude if this is before the movie the idea wasnt established yet and like I said before Gohan can state whatever he wants that doesnt make it true. Thats like saying Frieza is the strongest in the universe because he said so =/. You are also forgetting the time Gohan doubted he could beat Cell because he "Thought" his power was cut in half and that he couldnt win. Character dialogue is often unreliable especially since Gohan knows nothing about his hidden potential other than the fact that he has it. Seriously I can name at least 10 other times where a character stated something false off the top of my head.