English music kills the emotion!

[Gyt Kaliba]

Why didn't FUNimation just stick to the Kikuchi score from the very beginning? Why do they feel the need to change things?

Because they're arrogant.

It'd be more why 'DID' they and/or they 'WERE', rather than anything about them now. They haven't done a replacement score in years now.

And it's hardly something that only they did, replacement scores were rather rampant for shows marketed towards children, especially during the 90's. Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Monster Rancher, and so on all did it too. So I for one don't really look at it as FUNi being 'arrogant', I just see it as a mistaken product of it's times. Nothing more, nothing less.

I wouldn't say it kills the emotion, more like it gets the emotion wrong. Sometimes there is a complete lack of understanding over what a scene is about.

I would agree with this pretty well though, though I feel a lot of the examples that could be made are still entirely subjective. Even in the Japanese version of the anime, I still took Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation as a pretty badass moment. But, I'm colored by years of knowing what's coming, so I'm probably missing how the scene would be to a first-time viewer.

[Fionordequester]

I wouldn't say it kills the emotion, more like it gets the emotion wrong. Sometimes there is a complete lack of understanding over what a scene is about.

I would agree with this pretty well though, though I feel a lot of the examples that could be made are still entirely subjective. Even in the Japanese version of the anime, I still took Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation as a pretty badass moment. But, I'm colored by years of knowing what's coming, so I'm probably missing how the scene would be to a first-time viewer.

And isn't music entirely subjective anyways? And aren't there multiple ways that you could interpret a scene in any work of fiction? After all, as long as we're talking about unfitting music, there are many instances in the Japanese version where I felt that Shunsuke Kikuchi completely missed the point of a scene, such as the flashback segment of Goku meeting Perfect Cell before the Cell Games, the time Gohan dreamed about his dad finally coming home from Namek, the music that played while Chiatzu was getting ready to blow himself up Nappa, and also some of the music that played when Goku met Raditz for the first time.

I'm just saying, it's not as though two musicians can't interpret a scene differently and not have both of them end up being right.

[penguintruth]

It'd be more why 'DID' they and/or they 'WERE', rather than anything about them now. They haven't done a replacement score in years now.

They're still kind of arrogant today, just not about music, anymore.

[AgitoZ]

And isn't music entirely subjective anyways?

Yes, but only up to a certain point. I doubt you'd call a band that's out of tune, that can't follow the beat, etc, to be subjectively good. Luckily the replacement is competent in the technical aspect, again, up to a certain point (too much midi).

I'm just saying, it's not as though two musicians can't interpret a scene differently and not have both of them end up being right.

Yes, however I think the musician who's score was originally in the scene should take precedence. At the end of the day, a director or whoever choose the music for a scene originally found Kikuchi's music to be suitable for it and that decision should be respected.

[matt0044]

Why didn't FUNimation just stick to the Kikuchi score from the very beginning? Why do they feel the need to change things?

Because they're arrogant.

Yes, they were. They sadly conformed to the stereotype of what a cartoon should be (not that Saban and Ocean weren't partially responsible back in the day).

It's hard to believe how far they've come.

BTW, were you typing "they're" as in "they are" or "they were?" Just so I'm clear...

[InfernalVegito]

Of course it's subjective. I mean the English replacement score could have fitted something else perfectly possibly. It depends on what kind of vibe you expect from the series and if the music doesn't manage to deliver that vibe, then it's just off and malplaced.

[Fionordequester]

Yes, but only up to a certain point. I doubt you'd call a band that's out of tune, that can't follow the beat, etc, to be subjectively good. Luckily the replacement is competent in the technical aspect, again, up to a certain point (too much midi).

Fair enough, however, I will see your "too much midi" comment with my "in mono and some kooky instruments" comment in regards to the Japanese score.

Yes, however I think the musician who's score was originally in the scene should take precedence. At the end of the day, a director or whoever choose the music for a scene originally found Kikuchi's music to be suitable for it and that decision should be respected.

Huh...see, I think that's the disconnect between the Team Faulconer fans and the Japanese fans. It's only TO YOU that this score is THE rightful score, and while that's TECHNICALLY correct...I don't have the emotional attachment to that score that you do. I remember when I first listened to the Japanese score, I was curious to how it sounded given how much Chris Psaro praised it in his Uncensored site, and when I took a listen, I thought...

"Huh...well this is...interesting, I...guess. It's something...different...not quite as exciting, and I was expecting something much more emotional given how Chris Psaro described it...but interesting."

So that's all it is to me, just another one of the many scores to this show. Better than most of the others certainly, even though I do think it can be really, REALLY boring sometimes, but...it's nothing special to me.

Of course it's subjective. I mean the English replacement score could have fitted something else perfectly possibly. It depends on what kind of vibe you expect from the series and if the music doesn't manage to deliver that vibe, then it's just off and malplaced.

Well, the Team Faulconer score vibe is EXACTLY the kind of vibe that I'd expect from this show, so it may just be individual taste. And those tastes, for better or worse, tend to be influenced by what you experienced first. And maybe that's what's happening to ME as well, even as I defend Team Faulconer, but...I'm just saying.

EDIT: Ok, now that I think about it, the above quote isn't QUITE true, as the first time I was seriously exposed to much of the Japanese score was when still hung out on the Teamfourstar boards, and was upset about how much the FUNI score was trashed, and was determined to do Episode Comparisons to compare the two, but...but that's more or less how I think of it now. Just indifferent, and still a bit confused as to how fans can be AS fond of it as they are outside of being exposed to it as a child. But then, you guys probably feel the same way about the Team Faulconer score, huh?

[InfernalVegito]

And those tastes, for better or worse, tend to be influenced by what you experienced first.

This is true. I grew up with all three original Japanese soundtracks. It might have been the complete opposite if I grew up with English one. That's how it is now.
And sorry I don't know what or who Faulconer are. I was mainly talking about GT's score.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I think that's the disconnect between the Team Faulconer fans and the Japanese fans. It's only TO YOU that this score is THE rightful score, and while that's TECHNICALLY correct...I don't have the emotional attachment to that score that you do. I remember when I first listened to the Japanese score, I was curious to how it sounded given how much Chris Psaro praised it in his Uncensored site, and when I took a listen, I thought...

"Huh...well this is...interesting, I...guess. It's something...different...not quite as exciting, and I was expecting something much more emotional given how Chris Psaro described it...but interesting."

Well, the Team Faulconer score vibe is EXACTLY the kind of vibe that I'd expect from this show, so it may just be individual taste. And those tastes, for better or worse, tend to be influenced by what you experienced first. And maybe that's what's happening to ME as well, even as I defend Team Faulconer, but...I'm just saying.

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I kind of had a similar experience. The first time I noticed different kinds of music in Dragon Ball was when I first watched the original three DBZ movies, Ocean dub. It was always curious to me why the music as well as the voices were so different from what I was used to. Then, when I would get some single DVDs of the show much later, and notice the Japanese track on there, I would poke around on those for the heck of it, to see what the original version was like (and this was before I was highly active in any online activities, so the interest in the original version was always there in me I think), and I remember kind of liking the music, even if it was really different.

In my case, it was more certain aspects of the fandom that turned me off of the Japanese score and all of that for a long time, rather than anything in the Japanese version itself - but that's neither here nor there, it's all old news anyway.

As far as what someone experiences first being a big part of someone's tastes, that's definitely true. But I for one try to overcome that if I can. I love multiple version of the TMNT now, despite knowing the original cartoon first. I love both the English and Japanese versions of Dragon Ball and Digimon, despite knowing their massively-overhauled dub forms first. It's all a matter of trying out multiple incarnations of things and seeing what sticks with you.

[penguintruth]

Kikuchi's music interprets the show differently than Faulconer's. What the DB story is, is essentially a martial arts comedy that transforms into wuxia operatics (with some classic shonen spirit trappings and remnants of its comic past), so the big, grand, orchestral feel of the Kikuchi score reflects the grandness of it all. There's a feeling of "naturalness" to it, it's more visceral. Electronics are used sparingly, and when they are it's for very good reason.

The Faulconer score (and by extension, the English dub itself) reinterprets it as a simple, frenetically charged high octane mid-90s macho action yarn/professional wrestling tableau, that's just about beefy aliens who shoot lasers at each other to rawkin' metal, as if it's some great big Gwar music video.

I might be taking what is sort of a silly action show a little too seriously, but the thing is, the casting, the script, and the music in the Japanese version all take it seriously, as if there was nothing that silly about it, except where obvious. Funimation's interpretation, and the music reflects this, is more of a garish exaggeration, a knowing parody of it all that leans on the fourth wall. It simplifies it into common superheroics, into something more, for lack of better terms, "American comic book" for the viewer.

I mean, just listen to the main suite to DBZ movie 1 and its dark, forboding punctuation, leading almost into a zen-like state and then building up to pure abject horror, only to be saved by a DB theme reprise and soften into a gentle, if a bit cheesy, epilogue. It captures all the emotions of the movie without resorting to the cheap theatrical obviousness of electric guitar or synth sounds. It's not a score that breaths modern trappings. It speaks of ancient, secret, sacred things, reflecting a story of an ancient enemy, in this case the shape of Garlic Junior.

Could you imagine replacing this with obnoxious, overly intrusive static like the majoriy of Faulconer's music? I couldn't.

[Gonstead]

Could you imagine replacing this with obnoxious, overly intrusive static like the majoriy of Faulconer's music? I couldn't.

And it never was.

[AgitoZ]

Fair enough, however, I will see your "too much midi" comment with my "in mono and some kooky instruments" comment in regards to the Japanese score.

Well, Kikuchi made stereo tracks (if Kai is any indication) and it's not like it should be a considerable fault. I doubt too many people complained about the Beatles and their mixes. Not to mention, in its current state, the original Z audio will always be in mono (in any official capacity at least) and that's not even Kikuchi's fault, it's Toei's.

As for "kooky instruments", I say it suits the show. In the myriad of adjectives to describe DB, I think "kooky" would be up there.

[Gonstead]

As for "kooky instruments", I say it suits the show. In the myriad of adjectives to describe DB, I think "kooky" would be up there.

It can however, get annoying when used in a scene where the tone and mood is right but it goes too far with the addition of the "kooky instruments".

I'll freely admit Shunsuke Kikuchi is a great composer, just that all the twangs, slide-whistles, boings and etc do get overused and overplayed at times in some of his compositions. It's mainly his DBZ work that has this problem, the original Dragon Ball is perfectly fine though.

[penguintruth]

Could you imagine replacing this with obnoxious, overly intrusive static like the majoriy of Faulconer's music? I couldn't.

And it never was.

Not my point. Though it is curious how the first two movies (and the home video version of the third) escaped both Shuki Levy and Mark Menza.

As for "kooky instruments", I say it suits the show. In the myriad of adjectives to describe DB, I think "kooky" would be up there.

It can however, get annoying when used in a scene where the tone and mood is right but it goes too far with the addition of the "kooky instruments".

I'll freely admit Shunsuke Kikuchi is a great composer, just that all the twangs, slide-whistles, boings and etc do get overused and overplayed at times in some of his compositions. It's mainly his DBZ work that has this problem, the original Dragon Ball is perfectly fine though.

Well, the vibraslap is overused, I'll admit that much.

[kenisu3000]

After all, as long as we're talking about unfitting music, there are many instances in the Japanese version where I felt that Shunsuke Kikuchi completely missed the point of a scene, such as the flashback segment of Goku meeting Perfect Cell before the Cell Games, the time Gohan dreamed about his dad finally coming home from Namek, the music that played while Chiatzu was getting ready to blow himself up Nappa, and also some of the music that played when Goku met Raditz for the first time.

Those weren't Kikuchi missing the point of a scene - those were whoever was in charge of music placement missing the point of a scene (and I must stress, this is your opinion, not mine). Just about everything you mention was recycled music from a movie, not the TV show. And you bring up Gohan's dream; if you're talking about the Cha-La instrumental that plays there, I can see where you're coming from, but Kikuchi didn't even compose that, let alone choose to put it in that specific scene.

I'll admit, there are moments in the movies when I wonder to myself what Kikuchi was thinking (mostly involving the oddly upbeat and cheerful themes composed for a few of the battle scenes). But these are few and far between.

[Gaffer Tape]

I doubt too many people complained about the Beatles and their mixes. Not to mention, in its current state, the original Z audio will always be in mono (in any official capacity at least) and that's not even Kikuchi's fault, it's Toei's.

Exactly. It drives me crazy when people try to equate monophonic sound to sound quality when there is absolutely no correlation between the two. The only inherent difference is how many speakers the sound is mixed to. The fact that Dragon Ball's audio, as we have it, sounds tinny and muffled has nothing to do with the fact that it's in mono.

[Fionordequester]

I doubt too many people complained about the Beatles and their mixes. Not to mention, in its current state, the original Z audio will always be in mono (in any official capacity at least) and that's not even Kikuchi's fault, it's Toei's.

Exactly. It drives me crazy when people try to equate monophonic sound to sound quality when there is absolutely no correlation between the two. The only inherent difference is how many speakers the sound is mixed to. The fact that Dragon Ball's audio, as we have it, sounds tinny and muffled has nothing to do with the fact that it's in mono.

Huh, really? Then why IS it so tinny then?

[Gaffer Tape]

Because, due to the infeasibility back then of anything like collecting a huge series on home video, Toei did not bother keeping their master audio tapes for something as disposable as Dragon Ball. Once an episode has its original airing, the audio was discarded, leaving only the optical copy on the video film source, which was of much lower quality.

But, yeah, you should really go look up, say a Beatles song on YouTube and listen to both its stereo and mono mixes and try to hear any actual quality difference between the two. Hell, for that matter, did you know Kanzenshuu The Podcast is mixed in mono?

[Insertclevername]

Wow, that's a shame about the master tapes. I wonder if any of them still exist? Probably not...

[Gonstead]

Wow, that's a shame about the master tapes. I wonder if any of them still exist? Probably not...

Well, IIRC the movies kept their master audio, which is why they sound so nice compared to the TV episodes.

The only thing left of the audio masters are TV recordings from when the episodes first aired. Kei17 is one of the few who has every episode recorded this way.

I also did comparisons between the recordings and the Dragon Box if you check my Youtube account.