Brilliant (but subtle) writing in Dragonball

[Metalwario64]

So, pretty much this?

[MCDaveG]

So, pretty much this?

Yeah!!! But that would be really awesome! How much anime series you know, where you follow the protagonist and you believe he will win and in the end, he's not....
Like in Z Gundam, that really was brutal, as (spoiler) Camille was left mentally cripled in the end after all this unluckiness he went trough.

[ABED]

Nah, heroes should save the day, but one of the most interesting things about the Android/Cell arc is that Goku is the first to fight one of the cyborgs one on one which is far different. Usually his friends are waiting for him to arrive.

One thing I wish would've happened in the arc is if Yamcha was killed off. Kuririn kept coming back but he affected the plot in certain ways and it was nice to see him get what he wanted finally - a wife and family. Yamcha is phased out pretty much completely. Having him die at the hands of #20 would've been a very dark and interesting way to start off the story with a bang.

[Rocketman]

I meant Gohan losing his arm, actually.

[matt0044]

Goku letting Freeza have some of his Ki is practically Cruel Mercy. He was clearly mocking Frieza at the end, and essentially told him to hide in a corner of the universe and never come back. Frieza would've spent the rest of his life a shell of his former self with the knowledge that he was owned by "a lowly Saiyan." Which, to a Saiyan, would be a Fate Worse than Death, one that Frieza deserves.

One could originally believe that Goku told Gohan to finish off Cell quickly because then Cell would be dead and it would be all over and done with. But then you realized that Goku was telling him this because 1) he had been in the exact same situation on Namek versus Frieza, and the trademark cockiness/ruthlessness of the SSJ transformation had nearly cost him his life, and 2) Goku probably realized that Cell, having Frieza's DNA in him, would react in the same way as Frieza did upon being overmatched: he would try to destroy the planet.

Future Trunks is normally quite pragmatic in killing his enemies, but takes time to fool around with Frieza and his army before finishing him off. Keep in mind that Trunks has spent nearly his entire life fighting to survive in a world besieged by two Androids he's completely powerless against. Frieza was probably the first enemy Trunks had ever faced that not only was evil enough to warrant killing, but that Trunks KNEW he was stronger than. He was taking out a lifetime of frustrations at feeling powerless on Frieza. He takes out King Cold quickly, possibly because, while we don't see it, King Cold may be able to transform and thus Trunks wanted to kill him before he did so on the offchance that King Cold's higher forms exceeded his.

[ABED]

Goku letting Freeza have some of his Ki is practically Cruel Mercy. He was clearly mocking Freeza at the end, and essentially told him to hide in a corner of the universe and never come back. Freeza would've spent the rest of his life a shell of his former self with the knowledge that he was owned by "a lowly Saiyan." Which, to a Saiyan, would be a Fate Worse than Death, one that Freeza deserves.

One could originally believe that Goku told Gohan to finish off Cell quickly because then Cell would be dead and it would be all over and done with. But then you realized that Goku was telling him this because 1) he had been in the exact same situation on Namek versus Freeza, and the trademark cockiness/ruthlessness of the SSJ transformation had nearly cost him his life, and 2) Goku probably realized that Cell, having Freeza's DNA in him, would react in the same way as Freeza did upon being overmatched: he would try to destroy the planet.

Future Trunks is normally quite pragmatic in killing his enemies, but takes time to fool around with Freeza and his army before finishing him off. Keep in mind that Trunks has spent nearly his entire life fighting to survive in a world besieged by two Androids he's completely powerless against. Freeza was probably the first enemy Trunks had ever faced that not only was evil enough to warrant killing, but that Trunks KNEW he was stronger than. He was taking out a lifetime of frustrations at feeling powerless on Freeza. He takes out King Cold quickly, possibly because, while we don't see it, King Cold may be able to transform and thus Trunks wanted to kill him before he did so on the offchance that King Cold's higher forms exceeded his.

You and Goku give Freeza too much credit, we can clearly see by his actions that he's not the type to hide away. He would've taken his anger out on someone, plus he attacked Earth to try and get revenge. Had Goku not learned to teleport or Trunks not been there (nothing GOku could've anticipate before hand), the Earth would've been screwed.

My favorite bit of brilliance from Toriyama was having Goku lose the 22nd Tournament. Perhaps you could've guessed that Muten Roshi would beat his pupil, but I don't think anyone would've guessed that Goku would've lost the second one. That's one of the things I loved about Dragon Ball. If Toriyama had ended the series with Goku defeating Piccolo at the 23rd Tournament, it would've been a complete story. Goku defeated his greatest enemy, was going to get married, and he finally achieved his dream of becoming tournament champion.

[matt0044]

You and Goku give Freeza too much credit, we can clearly see by his actions that he's not the type to hide away. He would've taken his anger out on someone, plus he attacked Earth to try and get revenge. Had Goku not learned to teleport or Trunks not been there (nothing GOku could've anticipate before hand), the Earth would've been screwed.

Maybe but his lack of limbs would probably hinder him (and King Cold wasn't known then or conceived of. Not to mention the idea of a Cyborg Freeza was... out there at the time).

[Insertclevername]

Someone a while ago on the forum pointed this one out: The Boo saga kids are parodies of (then) non-current characters.

Kid Trunks is a parody of Mirai Trunks.

Goten is a parody of Gokuu.

Gotenks is a parody of Vegeta.

[ABED]

You and Goku give Freeza too much credit, we can clearly see by his actions that he's not the type to hide away. He would've taken his anger out on someone, plus he attacked Earth to try and get revenge. Had Goku not learned to teleport or Trunks not been there (nothing GOku could've anticipate before hand), the Earth would've been screwed.

Maybe but his lack of limbs would probably hinder him (and King Cold wasn't known then or conceived of. Not to mention the idea of a Cyborg Freeza was... out there at the time).

Freeza was still probably considerably stronger than most. It's arguable that it's a fate worse than death for Freeza, but why take the chance? There was absolutely nothing in Freeza's character that would suggest he would ever just live the rest of his days with the knowledge that he lost to a Saiyan.

[matt0044]

Freeza was still probably considerably stronger than most. It's arguable that it's a fate worse than death for Freeza, but why take the chance? There was absolutely nothing in Freeza's character that would suggest he would ever just live the rest of his days with the knowledge that he lost to a Saiyan.

Point taken. Though I don't think Freeza got a lot of Ki (just enough to keep him alive).

[ABED]

More than enough to keep him alive. Not only was he strong enough to stay alive after Goku blasted him, he survived a planetary explosion. Freeza's insanely resiliant.

[Godo]

Remember how Vegeta suddenly became pro-Goku in the end of Dragonball?

First we have him pissed with Goku for not fighting him in Ssj3, not wanting to fuse and being all mad.
After fusing with Goku, he has suddenly become all pro Ssj3, and strangely very understanding of Goku's nature, especially in the kid Buu fight.
Also, you see them cooperate much more easily, and they even call each other "friend".

I believe that by being fused, the two finally understood each other, especially Vegeta.

Simply, Vegeta had been misunderstanding Goku and his intentions all the time.

[Super Gazellian]

Remember how Vegeta suddenly became pro-Goku in the end of Dragonball?

First we have him pissed with Goku for not fighting him in Ssj3, not wanting to fuse and being all mad.
After fusing with Goku, he has suddenly become all pro Ssj3, and strangely very understanding of Goku's nature, especially in the kid Buu fight.
Also, you see them cooperate much more easily, and they even call each other "friend".

I believe that by being fused, the two finally understood each other, especially Vegeta.

Simply, Vegeta had been misunderstanding Goku and his intentions all the time.

Taking that into account, Goku deciding against the fusion a second time despite it working so well was because he gained more of an understanding of Vegeta's saiyan pride Hey, maybe fusing even just makes the two fusee's more like each other in personality and mindset every time they fuse, something to do with the DNA not separating properly or something

[matt0044]

More than enough to keep him alive. Not only was he strong enough to stay alive after Goku blasted him, he survived a planetary explosion. Freeza's insanely resiliant.

I'd like to think he was hanging onto life by a string.

[ABED]

I don't know if fusing makes them more like eachother, but it's probably the case that sharing a body and consciousness would bring about a greater understanding between the two individuals.

More than enough to keep him alive. Not only was he strong enough to stay alive after Goku blasted him, he survived a planetary explosion. Freeza's insanely resiliant.

I'd like to think he was hanging onto life by a string.

Regardless, killing Freeza was the safest option.

[Kid Buu]

Right before he dies on Namek, Vegeta tells Goku he wants Freeza to die by a Saiyan's hand. Guess who does ultimately kill Freeza? Not only a Saiyan, but Vegeta's son, Trunks!

Piccolo swore to avenge his father's death at the hands of Goku by killing him. I just realized he did along with Raditz and after that (Goku's body is still warm) he becomes a good guy, shown by training Gohan. As soon as he completes his oath, he starts walking his own path.

Also Gero made the Androids & Cell in order to Kill Goku and Cell killed Goku, so technically he too succeeded.

[worldmonsters]

Remember how Vegeta suddenly became pro-Goku in the end of Dragonball?

First we have him pissed with Goku for not fighting him in Ssj3, not wanting to fuse and being all mad.
After fusing with Goku, he has suddenly become all pro Ssj3, and strangely very understanding of Goku's nature, especially in the kid Buu fight.
Also, you see them cooperate much more easily, and they even call each other "friend".

I believe that by being fused, the two finally understood each other, especially Vegeta.

Simply, Vegeta had been misunderstanding Goku and his intentions all the time.

Taking that into account, Goku deciding against the fusion a second time despite it working so well was because he gained more of an understanding of Vegeta's saiyan pride Hey, maybe fusing even just makes the two fusee's more like each other in personality and mindset every time they fuse, something to do with the DNA not separating properly or something

I love both of these things, the first I already thought of, but Goku refusing to fuse again because he understands Vegeta, I had never thought of that and it makes perfect sense?

I saw Movie 13 yesterday evening and even though Tapion's sword isn't necessarily the same as Future Trunks' sword, but the framing and the animation when Kid Trunks slashes Hildegarn's tail is really similair to how Future Trunks sliced Frieza. And apart from that, in the Funimation version Kid Trunks also sounds the same as Future Trunks did in the original dub, I thought that was a nice touch. Both not Toriyama, but it was actually a really nice reference :p

[Metalwario64]

And apart from that, in the Funimation version Kid Trunks also sounds the same as Future Trunks did in the original dub, I thought that was a nice touch.

I don't understand. Laura Bailey and Eric Vale never sound the same, or even similar. What are you talking about?

[Duo]

Someone a while ago on the forum pointed this one out: The Boo saga kids are parodies of (then) non-current characters.

Kid Trunks is a parody of Mirai Trunks.

Goten is a parody of Gokuu.

Gotenks is a parody of Vegeta.

I really like this. I also like the observation about Goku and Vegeta understanding each other more after the Potara incident. A lot of really cool thoughts in this thread.

Anyone else think there's an intended resemblance between Piccolo Daimao Sr's death and the Ryu-Ken in Movie 13?

[Dogasu]

I really liked the episode where Trunks tells Goku all about who he is and about the impending threat of the Artificial Humans. Keep an eye on Piccolo in this one; even though he's kind of buried in the background for most of the episode, the animators still took the effort to have him visibly react to each new revelation that Trunks had to give. It really helps sell the whole "Piccolo was able to listen to the entire conversation" thing later in the episode.