Buu Saga Info

[Undertaker]

Gotenks in any form isn't stronger than Goku.

Stop ignoring evidence, kakashi. SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu is stated.

No one is awestruck by Gotenks power, including Piccolo. This is why he asked to test Gotenks speed, everything Gotenks says/does is overexaggerated and really can't be used as proof.

He questioned for his speed and not power because he was strong enough to beat Buu.

[dbzfan7]

I now agree with Post ROSAT Gotenks being above SSJ3 Goku, but I think he wouldn't surpass SSJ Pre ROSAT.

[Amuro Ray]

Base Gotenks < SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku (which is why Piccolo advised against him fighting Buu like this)


FYI Goku attempted to fight Gotenks Buu before the GrandKai stopped him, and powered up to SSJ3 to defend himself against Buu's attacks.

Amuro Ray wrote:
Later proven wrong. Kidbuu > SuperBuu. Goku fights him solo in SSJ3 in the realm of the Kais.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.7
Context: Goku says he’s almost out of time for staying on Earth, and Piccolo says he should have more
Goku: “It’s that ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing from before…It’s a technique you should only use in the afterlife…In this world, where time exists, it uses too much energy, and you get completely exhausted all at once…”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P1.4
Context: Goku looks really tired
Piccolo: “So becoming this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing in the lower world uses up that much ki power?...”I don't see what this proves. All this shows is that in the realm of the living Goku can't maintain the form as he is dead. He has the same problem when he's on the Kai planet when he, himself, is alive.

Again, The quote specifically point out the realm in which Goku is in, weakens the transformation.

___________________

Gotenks in any form isn't stronger than Goku.

Stop ignoring evidence, kakashi. SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu is stated.

No one is awestruck by Gotenks power, including Piccolo. This is why he asked to test Gotenks speed, everything Gotenks says/does is overexaggerated and really can't be used as proof.

He questioned for his speed and not power because he was strong enough to beat Buu.

If he's on Goku's level or above, he wouldn't have questioned him at all. He's unproven, which is why Piccolo ask to test him - how else would he (gotenks) demonstate his power, by sparring with someone else much weaker than himself?(Piccolo)

[The Monkey King]

Goku went SSJ3 against Buutenks as a futile effort to defend himself, as it was fight or flight at the time.

Had Goku fought Buutenks he would've been killed effortlessly by Buutenks.

[Hitiro]

Again, The quote specifically point out the realm in which Goku is in, weakens the transformation.

What are you on about? It doesn't weaken the transformation. It just limits the time Goku can use it. Goku says it uses up a lot of energy to maintain the transformation. Energy doesn't correlate to "strength" or "power" in this quote. What Goku was saying was in the living realm, where time has meaning(Because when you're dead time means nothing as you can't age or lose stamina.) Goku would have trouble using the transformation. Goku was only provided with 24 hours of energy to maintain his presence in the living world. After that 24 hours he must go back to realm of the dead to bring back his energy levels. He states this when Piccolo asks if he should get Dende to heal him. That doesn't mean the transformation was weakened. It just had more negative effects on a person who has only 24 hours worth of energy to spare. Of course if we're talking about Goku having null energy then "strength" or "power" would be a factor. But Goku had 24 hours worth of energy to fight which he could have obviously used to defeat Fat Boo at the same level he thought Fat Boo with, the transformation definitely wasn't weakened in any regard. It just made him tired faster.

[Zephyr]

The anime says that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. Meaning he is stronger than Buutenks. Goku was in the same general tier of power as Kid Buu.

This would mean that Goku is more powerful than Buutenks. That's fine and all, but why, then, would he even bother attempt at permanently fusing with Gohan, if he could easily neutralize the threat on his own?

[Amuro Ray]

The Anime states just what the Manga does - Kidbuu is more powerful than SuperBuu, but not as strong as Gohan/Gotenks Buu. Just like neither the Manga or Anime state that Buu is more dangerous because he is "more unpredictable" (which is stupid, and doesn't make much sense)

But In the Anime -they directly ask Goku if Gotenks is more powerful, to which Goku dodges the question and marvels at how the boys were able to transform into SSJ3 in such a short period of time.

[Zephyr]

The Anime states just what the Manga does - Kidbuu is more powerful than SuperBuu, but not as strong as Gohan/Gotenks Buu. Just like neither the Manga or Anime state that Buu is more dangerous because he is "more unpredictable" (which is stupid, and doesn't make much sense)

I know the narrator states that he's the strongest in the anime (even more so than the ones that fought Gohan and Vegetto, if I remember correctly, but it'd be nice to see a screenshot with the quote), but I'm not seeing any statements that explicitly lay out Kid Buu being the strongest in the manga. Care to point them out for me?

It makes perfect sense if you're willing to accept it. He has no sense of reason. He's now a mindless killing machine that can't be reasoned with like the previous forms of Buu could be. Emphasis is put on his heart having changed.

[Draken]

The Anime states just what the Manga does - Kidbuu is more powerful than SuperBuu, but not as strong as Gohan/Gotenks Buu. Just like neither the Manga or Anime state that Buu is more dangerous because he is "more unpredictable" (which is stupid, and doesn't make much sense)

But In the Anime -they directly ask Goku if Gotenks is more powerful, to which Goku dodges the question and marvels at how the boys were able to transform into SSJ3 in such a short period of time.

No, the anime states that Kid Buu > Buuhan. It's hard to use the anime in these debates really.

[Amuro Ray]

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P1.3
Context: evil Boo continues to revert to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “…H-hey…He’s changed into an awfully bulky guy…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.3-4
Context: Kaioshin explains Boo's history
Kaioshin: “…First, two [Kaioshins] were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo…..”
Elder Kaioshin: …And he become that huge Boo from before?“
Kaioshin: “…Yes……”



^All these are in comparison to Superbuu

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


I'll wait for someone to argue that Only Dai Kaioshinn reduced his power - which I actually might agree with, but there is no indicator in any of what I posted his power dropped off - if anything, it's infered he's more powerful.

[Amuro Ray]

The Anime states just what the Manga does - Kidbuu is more powerful than SuperBuu, but not as strong as Gohan/Gotenks Buu. Just like neither the Manga or Anime state that Buu is more dangerous because he is "more unpredictable" (which is stupid, and doesn't make much sense)

But In the Anime -they directly ask Goku if Gotenks is more powerful, to which Goku dodges the question and marvels at how the boys were able to transform into SSJ3 in such a short period of time.

No, the anime states that Kid Buu > Buuhan. It's hard to use the anime in these debates really.

It doesn't, but feel free to post the video.

[Amuro Ray]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I1q13R ... ata_player
"How is he getting stronger?" - Vegeta
"If this keeps up, he'll be stronger than before" - Goku.

[Godo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I1q13R ... ata_player
"How is he getting stronger?" - Vegeta
"If this keeps up, he'll be stronger than before" - Goku.

"He shrunk, and you were so worried". 'Nuff said.

[Amuro Ray]

??

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

[Zephyr]

I'll wait for someone to argue that Only Dai Kaioshinn reduced his power - which I actually might agree with, but there is no indicator in any of what I posted his power dropped off - if anything, it's infered he's more powerful.

I will do just that.

The 's' is in brackets there, due to Japanese lacking a way to indicate pluralization. This means that it can go either way. There is a guidebook quote (I don't remember where it is) that stated it was just Dai Kaioshin, and that's the only quote that explicitly sways it one way or the other.

The fact that you can infer it one way is fine, but it can just as easily be inferred the other way. They're all startled by his power rising for a bit, and then after he becomes "Pure" they say "oh now maybe we can take him!"

Again, its ambiguous as fuck, so either interpretation requires some degree of twisted logic. God bless poor writing.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Yes, physical size it what Vegeta is referring to. That doesn't change the fact that prior to Pure Buu appearing, there was no chance of them managing something.

And come on, the dub's almost as unreliable as those shitty scanlations.

[Amuro Ray]

I'll wait for someone to argue that Only Dai Kaioshinn reduced his power - which I actually might agree with, but there is no indicator in any of what I posted his power dropped off - if anything, it's infered he's more powerful.

I will do just that.

The 's' is in brackets there, due to Japanese lacking a way to indicate pluralization. This means that it can go either way. There is a guidebook quote (I don't remember where it is) that stated it was just Dai Kaioshin, and that's the only quote that explicitly sways it one way or the other.

The fact that you can infer it one way is fine, but it can just as easily be inferred the other way. They're all startled by his power rising for a bit, and then after he becomes "Pure" they say "oh now maybe we can take him!"

Again, its ambiguous as fuck, so either interpretation requires some degree of twisted logic. God bless poor writing.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Yes, physical size it what Vegeta is referring to. That doesn't change the fact that prior to Pure Buu appearing, there was no chance of them managing something.

And come on, the dub's almost as unreliable as those shitty scanlations.

I just don't agree. The Anime and Manga tell the same story.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Amuro Ray, you are wrong. Deal with it. If there was some actual weight to your argument I would humor it but your not bringing anything to the table that hasn't already been debunked or discussed. It's plainly evident that Gotenks, Gohan, and Evil Buu are all stronger than Goku. The only piece of evidence you have in your favor is the anime which can easily be disregarded as filler and or Goku talking out his ass. You also have to take into consideration that Ssj3 IS a 4x multiplier off Ssj2. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and he multiplies his power by 8 when he goes Ssj3 strait off of his Ssj form. Ssj3 Gotenks IS stronger than Goku. So is Gohan and Evil Buu.

[Amuro Ray]

Amuro Ray, you are wrong. Deal with it. If there was some actual weight to your argument I would humor it but your not bringing anything to the table that hasn't already been debunked or discussed. It's plainly evident that Gotenks, Gohan, and Evil Buu are all stronger than Goku. The only piece of evidence you have in your favor is the anime which can easily be disregarded as filler and or Goku talking out his ass. You also have to take into consideration that Ssj3 IS a 4x multiplier off Ssj2. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and he multiplies his power by 8 when he goes Ssj3 strait off of his Ssj form. Ssj3 Gotenks IS stronger than Goku. So is Gohan and Evil Buu.

None of what you said is stated in the manga or implied - I don't think you arguenent holds any merit at all - and honestly, I don't need you to validate MY OPINION.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's official information in the SEG supported by Akira Toriyama. I'll take that over some fan opinion of Goku's power which is quite frankly baseless. It's just you wanting Goku to be stronger than he really is which is completely unnecessary with him becoming a Ssj God.

[Zephyr]

I just don't agree. The Anime and Manga tell the same story.

Yes, it's all roughly the same story. Whether its the original manga, Viz, scanlations, the japanese anime, the old FUNi dub, Kai, etc.

But when people are literally dissecting each and every line to microscopic levels, nothing but the most untainted version of the most essential, core part of the story should be taken into consideration.