Base Saiyans and Freeza

[dbzfan7]

I don't think power level had anything to do with the Spirit Bomb. I think Goku was just too exhausted to give it a final push.

Power level does have something to do with the Genki Dama. Each person contributes the genki portion of their ki. Ki has relevance to power level. So does the Genki portion of ki. Whatever percentage of Genki makes up the persons entire ki would have some sort of power level associated with it. For instance; if the person has a power level of 5 then however much ki translates into a power level of 5 would have a certain percentage of Genki. Breaking that down further we get a power level value of that specific ki. So:

Power Level: 5

Genki : 300(33% of overall ki)
Yuuki: 300(33% of overall ki)
Shouki: 300(33% of overall ki)

Power Level of Genki ki: 5 x 0.33 = 1.65
Power Level of Yuuki ki: 5 x 0.33 = 1.65
Power Level of Shouki ki: 5 x 0.33 = 1.65

^ Using the example above if each sub-component contributes an even amount to a persons overall ki then the Genki Dama would have 1.65 power level from each individuals Genki. If the Earths population was 8 billion and every person had a powerlevel of 5 then you'd have a Genki Dama with the power level of 13,200,000,000. Tag on the 100, or so, Namekians which have varying power levels from 1,000 up to 10,000+ and its not going to be much bigger. Then add on Enma Daiou and his henchmen, still not much of an increase. The largest contribution besides the Earthling's will be Ultimate Gohan and even he is only going to donate 33% of his Genki, if we go by my above example of each sub-component of ki being an equal balance.

The point is, if Goku exceeds Freeza then 13.2 Billion is going to be chump change for Pure Boo to stop as if we put Base Goku at 120 million then Goku at SSJ2 would be at 12 billion. At SSJ3 Goku would be at 48 Billion. Ultimate Gohan would have to provide nearly 35 Billion just for the Genki Dama to match Goku's SSJ3 form.

If Genki got larger with a stronger individual, why wouldn't the boys fuse to create even more Genki. Also being brought back to life doesn't give you your full power as Vegeta wasn't at full strength when he was restored by the Dragon Balls.

[Hitiro]

If Genki got larger with a stronger individual, why wouldn't the boys fuse to create even more Genki. Also being brought back to life doesn't give you your full power as Vegeta wasn't at full strength when he was restored by the Dragon Balls.

Perhaps they assumed everybody else's energy would be enough? I honestly don't know. But Genki is some percentage of the persons overall ki. So a stronger individual should have more Genki. If being brought back to life doesn't give you your full power, which I believed until just recently because Vegeta was fighting Boo while he was dead so him not having full power might be because he lost his power when he was fighting Boo, then that means Gohan should be contributing even less Genki then he would fresh because he died? I can't remember if Gohan's full power was there when he was absorbed and then subsequently killed. I remember Dende healing him but I can't remember if he was knocked around for a bit again after being healed.

[dbzfan7]

If Genki got larger with a stronger individual, why wouldn't the boys fuse to create even more Genki. Also being brought back to life doesn't give you your full power as Vegeta wasn't at full strength when he was restored by the Dragon Balls.

Perhaps they assumed everybody else's energy would be enough? I honestly don't know. But Genki is some percentage of the persons overall ki. So a stronger individual should have more Genki. If being brought back to life doesn't give you your full power, which I believed until just recently because Vegeta was fighting Boo while he was dead so him not having full power might be because he lost his power when he was fighting Boo, then that means Gohan should be contributing even less Genki then he would fresh because he died? I can't remember if Gohan's full power was there when he was absorbed and then subsequently killed. I remember Dende healing him but I can't remember if he was knocked around for a bit again after being healed.

Gohan was healed then Bootenks used one attack hit him(did some damage to Gohan but nothing fatal). Then Tenshinhan jumped in. After that Goku showed up and Gohan got absorbed. Then Gohan was unconscious when Kid Boo destroyed earth.

[Mjb1985]

Lol Hitiro. I didn't mean like that. I meant that it doesn't matter if Base Goku is stronger or weaker than Freeza regarding the Spirit Bomb and his inability to push it down on Buu. Sorry about that.

[Bussani]

Power level does have something to do with the Genki Dama. Each person contributes the genki portion of their ki. Ki has relevance to power level. So does the Genki portion of ki. Whatever percentage of Genki makes up the persons entire ki would have some sort of power level associated with it. For instance; if the person has a power level of 5 then however much ki translates into a power level of 5 would have a certain percentage of Genki.

I feel like this uses a lot of assumptions, though. What if combining multiple people's genki creates something more powerful than the sum of its parts? What if genki isn't a direct percentage of a person's ki, but affects it in a different way? I think there are a lot more possibilities than the ones you're going with.

[TheMightyOzaru]

^Exactly. I still think SSJ3 Goku should be around 30,000,000,000+ because it makes more sense to assume the Genki Dama is just taking a portion of your Ki and adding it into a clump making a Genki Dama. This just fits Dragon Ball and it's simplicity. However if you think the Genki Dama works differently go for it .

[Kid Buu]

Well fused Base Saiyans are stronger than Freeza.

[Hitiro]

Power level does have something to do with the Genki Dama. Each person contributes the genki portion of their ki. Ki has relevance to power level. So does the Genki portion of ki. Whatever percentage of Genki makes up the persons entire ki would have some sort of power level associated with it. For instance; if the person has a power level of 5 then however much ki translates into a power level of 5 would have a certain percentage of Genki.

I feel like this uses a lot of assumptions, though. What if combining multiple people's genki creates something more powerful than the sum of its parts? What if genki isn't a direct percentage of a person's ki, but affects it in a different way? I think there are a lot more possibilities than the ones you're going with.

If it was something like the sum of its parts making it more powerful then wouldn't Gohan and the rest of the Z-Senshi have made a much larger contribution? Wouldn't they need much less than the whole population? Also if we make Goku 120 million in his base then his SSJ3 form would be 48 billion. Even if we assume every Earthling on the planet has a powerlevel of 5(Using the average as a basis, there would probably be a much larger percentage of lower level power levels due to kids being making up the largest portion of any population) and assuming a population of 8 billion(Would be lower than this probably because Dragon Ball's Earth has a lot less cities and places where people live). The Genki Dama if you add them all together would be 40 billion.

So Pure Boo, who is supposed to be as strong as SSJ3 Goku, would be 8 billion higher than the Genki Dama without Z-Senshi being added on to it. Goku also made the comment that the Genki Dama wouldn't be enough, assuming Vegeta was talking about only drawing a little Genki off of every person when in actual fact Vegeta pointed out that they'd take all they had. If the Genki Dama had some sort of "sum is greater than its parts" mojo I don't think Goku would have been so worried if Vegeta was talking about only drawing a little Genki. As I'm sure it would be more than enough to deal with Pure Boo given that sort of equation. Especially if you chuck Gohan in there.

[Bussani]

If it was something like the sum of its parts making it more powerful then wouldn't Gohan and the rest of the Z-Senshi have made a much larger contribution? Wouldn't they need much less than the whole population?

Doesn't that depend entirely on how much genki an average person has, which itself is also an assumption?

If the Genki Dama had some sort of "sum is greater than its parts" mojo I don't think Goku would have been so worried if Vegeta was talking about only drawing a little Genki. As I'm sure it would be more than enough to deal with Pure Boo given that sort of equation.

I don't see how we can be sure of that. As I said above, we don't know how much genki an average life form has, and we don't know how small a fraction of that the regular Genki Dama would borrow. Even if it did create something a certain amount stronger than the sum of its parts, that doesn't automatically mean it would be enough to kill Buu.

[Undertaker]

Freeza could very well be stronger than the Base Saiyans, but I'm sure one can say Goku was suppressed there as well. I still have yet to see the movie, so I can only give my opinion based on the synopsis.

I'm okay with Freeza being stronger than them....but I'm also okay with the Base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza. I've went back and forth on the comparison between the Base Saiyans and Freeza for a while, so that's why I'm okay with either of them being more powerful.

It's stated that Base Goku can't beat Freeza but he can when he goes SSJ so nothing was suppressed and that's a mere conjuncture. No way in hell Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Base Saiyans should be far ahead of Freeza in the Cell Arc. 1st Post Vegeta is probably ahead of Freeza.

If you don't mind me asking, what have the base Saiyans done, that puts them far above Freeza?

They are stronger than Kaioshin who is far ahead of Frieza. It's also impossible based on the fact that Imperfect Cell tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade that should be 3.5x amplified. By that logic, SSJ Goku in the Buu Arc is at most 5 billions which makes no sense.

[Duo]

The untransformed Saiyans don't really do anything terribly relevant in battle anyway, so it doesn't matter to me even a bit whether or not they're stronger than Freeza. The important part of the story is that Super Saiyans are stronger than Freeza.

[Kamiccolo9]

They are stronger than Kaioshin who is far ahead of Freeza. It's also impossible based on the fact that Imperfect Cell tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade that should be 3.5x amplified. By that logic, SSJ Goku in the Buu Arc is at most 5 billions which makes no sense.

And you're basing this off what, exactly? Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. Where does the 3.5x amplifier come from? And power levels after the Freeza Arc are unknown, so how does SSJ Goku at 5 billion make no sense?

[hleV]

If Genki is vitality, why would it depend on one's power? Every human should have a similar amount of that. If it depended on strength, It would take forever for Dende to heal the Z Fighters.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I have SSJ Goku at 5,000,000,000 in the Buu saga =/. The idea that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans is completely baseless. At least the idea that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo holds some meat but even then it's completely shattered when you realize that Dabura thought Pui Pui was a match for the base Saiyans. It's likely Dabura was only feeling their suppressed energies. An out of universe explanation would say that their SSJ forms were being taken into account since, in general, the Saiyans are the strongest of the group. Hell I think by now we should have realized that sensing things was completely broken in this arc. Kaioshin is completely unimpressed by SSJ2 Gohan yet is awestruck by SSJ Gohan? Yeah ok. Piccolo thinks base Gotenks is enough to beat Super Buu even though Gotenks needed to get 400x stronger to do the job >_>. If Battle of Gods implies that Freeza is stronger, or slightly weaker since Goku might not have been showing all his power, then that's good enough for me.

[Mjb1985]

@ K

He's probably bringing up how Goku's KHH from the Saiyan Saga is "not much to speak of." Hence the Light Grenade is probably a good deal superior to 2.22x amplification.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, that whole thing about the Kamehameha that Cell used against Piccolo being pathetic compared to whatever Goku could do with the attack at that time.

To be honest, even taking amplification into account, I don't think Cell's ability with the attack necessarily has to be the same as when the genetic material for him is gathered. Experience is the key; By the Saiyan arc, Goku had something like 10 years of using the attack under his belt. Regardless of when DNA was taken from Goku, Cell would more likely have his skill and ability with his progenitor's techniques reset to zero. He's his own being, after all.

[Mjb1985]

That sounds reasonable, but Piccolo does specifically reference oh that was Goku's attack from back then. If not for the specific reference I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

It seems that whenever numbers get involved, problems arise. Personally I don't think anyone would have trouble with accepting Piccolo and Co's amplification being superior in the Androids Saga than their amplification was during the Saiyan Saga. That's just common sense. Natural progression. The issue here is the 2.22x boost. People think that boost is tremendous and rightly so.

As big of a numbers guy I am, I do see the flaws in doing things so strictly in terms of numerical representation.

For me, Piccolo's Ki Blast ( Android Saga ) > Piccolo's Ki Blast ( Saiyans Saga ) is all I need to know. I try not to think about the numbers similar to the Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre stuff. But I totally understand the no way numbers too crazy mentality. It really is a shocker to see some of these implications and quickly discard them. But yea, if you don't focus on power levels , implications are easier to accept.

[dbzfan7]

I think Goku would be around Freeza by the end. So this news doesn't bother me. Though I remember when I once had Base Goku around Semi-Perfect Cell .

I still wonder if The Super Saiyans ever equaled Full Power Perfect Cell.

[RandomGuy96]

I think that even enraged kid Gohan exceeded normal Perfect Cell, and Goku and Vegeta's SS forms exceeded even that.

[dbzfan7]

I think that even enraged kid Gohan exceeded normal Perfect Cell, and Goku and Vegeta's SS forms exceeded even that.

I don't recall Enraged SSJ Kid Gohan being above FP Perfect Cell.