Super Saiyan 4 . . . WTF?!

[Xyex]

I leave most such things up to the core of GT, plot holes. Nothing was thought out in even the slightest with the series, it flows exactly like bad fan ficition.

[Duo]

I leave most such things up to the core of GT, plot holes. Nothing was thought out in even the slightest with the series, it flows exactly like bad fan ficition.

I'm glad we agree on something.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Some points I've thought to make, a few off-topic observations and other assorted crap:

I'm guessing that since the giant ape form is ten times a Saiyan's regular power, then the golden ape is ten (or more...) times the fighter's SSJ form. SSJ4 is probably that same power as the giant golden ape, only consolidated into the smaller form, thus giving more control and speed to the fighter. This would explain why this form has the fur and such: it's a balance between the normal Saiyan form and the giant ape (all the power of the massive, furry alter ego, but the character's typical size and intellect).

That was my initial impression . . . and it still is, to a degree. I don't know anything about a difference between Oozaru and Golden Oozaru and which giant form is a multiplication of what (hence my reason for starting this thread), but my first thought when I saw SSJ4 was that it was meant to be taken exactly as you describe it.

As for the Baby Vegeta issue, I believe the strength was mostly due to Vegeta's power, or else Baby wouldn't have needed him, specifically.

That makes sense. I'd forgotten that Baby was looking for hosts specifically to explot them as power-ups, and why would he do that if he himself wasn't weak by comparison?

Maybe Vegeta somehow maximized SSJ2, deciding SSJ3 wastes too much energy? The answer is unknowable, since the series creators were only concerned with Goku and didn't feel like taking any considerable thought to other characters and their battle powers.

It is unknowable, but that never stopped me from trying. Such headaches! I tried to figure that one out for months before I could finally bring myself to let it alone.

I suspect Vegeta had quite an impressive battle power in GT, mostly to show us just how powerful later villians were by having them kick his ass before SSJ4 Goku showed up. Recall Vegeta's fight with Omega Shenron, that he took quite a horrendous amount of abuse and kept on truckin'.

I think you're right. Vegeta never up and tells us something like "If you can't tell, this is SSJ2" when he transforms . . . and anything's up for debate, I suppose . . . but I'm pretty sure he was fighting at that level for most of GT, and likely at an absolute mastery of SSJ2 power. That angry moment he powered up and leveled his surroundings just before Baby entered his body comes to mind.

It's a shame that Vegeta was reduced to the role of showcasing an enemy's advantage over him, but he did keep getting up an ungodly number of times. At least with SSJ4, he's finally on the same footing as Goku when Yi Xing Long overwhelms them . . . which I liked, because it was an exceptionally rare thing for them to fight an adversary together as true equals.

I think the most insane thing about Super Saiyan 4 is that it becomes like some kind of normal form of Goku in GT once he's able to transform into that state, yet the amount of power believed to be in that form isn't as great as it's made out to be.

My issue with SSJ4 was that after it's discovered, it's apparently the only form worth beans in combat. Everything else is rendered useless. The only other time Goku's hair turns golden again after the Baby conflict is against Super 17, and I think if Goku had caught on to 17's energy absorption teqnique a little sooner . . . and not inadvertently handed over all that additional power . . . that he wouldn't have even bothered with SSJ4 and simply jumped to using Dragon Fist instead.

Goku could've killed Bebi in any form as long as the Kamehame-Ha was strong and fast enough to launch Bebi into the sun while the blast and flames engulfed him. Goku kills both Super #17 and Yi Xing Long in DOWNGRADED forms after being moped up by them even in his Super Saiyan 4 form.

Once Baby leaved Vegeta's Oozaru body? Sure. Hell, Master Roshi could have probably pushed Baby's ship into the sun . . . but first, Baby need to be given a reason to leave Vegeta. It took the power of SSJ4 to beat one into him.

As for Super 17 and Yi Xing Long, well . . . yes, he did.

All I know is that I consider SSJ4 Goku to be around the power of Super Buu or Super Buu2. No higher than that. I've always figured the Golden Oozaru is 10 times stronger than the highest SSJ state reached (3 for Goku and 2 for Vegeta) . . .

I'm reluctant to compare SSJ4 to any of the Buu forms, but Golden Oozaru being limited to the highest SSJ state reached sure makes sense to me. I think it helps place a needed limit on the power of SSJ4 . . . my meaning being that, a Saiyan can probably reach and control the Golden Oozaru after having reached only SSJ, but that "SSJ4" as a result would be limited to a multiplication of base SSJ and not be the same SSJ4 that Goku reaches, since of course he isn't limited to just first-stage SSJ.

The way I said it doesn't make much sense, and really I could be wrong . . . but I like the idea.

. . . and that SSJ4 is half the power of the Golden Oozaru.

I'm not touching that one. You and Duo have a fine debate going.

For me, it is hard to understand the power level relations because it was not as...thought out, as aforementioned.

It's hard for me, too. If it were easy, I wouldn't have posted at all and we wouldn't all be having this pleasant discussion.

But, it clearly packs a lot of power. I don't know how it would relate to Goku's adult form, but compared to all his Kid levels it is a significant power up.

I wonder. I know it was slightly more difficult for Goku to use and endure SSJ3 because of his smaller body, but does that trickle down to the second and first stages as well? It was never specifically stated, but . . . he couldn't even use Instantaneous Movement at first, if I recall. You provided something very fascinating that I'm going to ponder over . . .

Certainly, SSJ4 is meant to be more powerful than any of the previous forms. But if it is merely a consolidation of the Golden Oozaru form like oponok mentioned, then is there something beyond SSJ3 with golden hair that's meant to be SSJ4; something that the Golden Oozaru could multiply and solidify into the red-furred form?

I'm just babbling now, though . . . but probably not. Maybe SSJ3 was the highest power meant to be reached outside of overcoming the Oozaru wall into SSJ4.

I would also say it's more powerful than the Super Saiyan Three...even a mastered, controlled Super Saiyan Three. Something Goku never managed outside the afterlife.

I don't know about never managing it. He did have a nice stretch of time to train between Kid Buu and discovering Uub, and again between the end of DBZ and where GT picks up the story . . . though I suppose the latter part would be dedicated more to training his pupil. Still, I can't think that Goku never regained the mastery of SSJ3 he had when we was dead . . . I'm willing to bet he had indeed found it again, but lost it due to his smaller body's lack of endurance in GT. But then, that's just me.

Little off topic, but GT DOES count in the anime canon continuity, it doesn't fit with the manga obviously, but it should be counted with the anime adaptations of Dragonball and Dragonball Z. While clearly not a perfect series, in my honest opinon, it had the PERFECT ending, an ending that I hope One Piece can get when it finishes.

Not a perfect series, no . . . and while it's not necessarily always in harmony with DB and DBZ, I'd like to count it as part of the continuing saga. But I did enjoy the ending, same as you . . . especially just how much of it is left up to the imagination. I left still trying to figure it all out even now.

I think that SSJ4 should be considered only as the Legendary form.

Agree and disagree. I don't know if SSJ4 is what was actually the real meat of the legend, but I don't particularly think it was intended as the next "natural" stage (if there even is one) in power following SSJ3, either. Rather, I think it may be a powered-up version of all three.

I consider SSJ4's power to be every ounce of power and energy of the saiyajin brought out to it's highest possible strength. You can clearly see this when Goku and Vegeta are fighting Li Shenlong. After losing the power-up, the two are completly exhausted(well at least Son is) and get thrown around like ragdolls.

I did notice that. Not to mention that, after a certain point Goku drained completely from SSJ4 back to his base form . . . as opposed to a lower stage of SSJ instead, which would indicate that he has at least some portion of power left. Clearly, he's left with none.

So whatever SSJ4 is, it may be safe to assume that it's something along the lines of all-or-nothing.

On the subject of the other forms of SSJ; I consider SSJ, USSJ, USSJ2, SSJ Full Power, SSJ2, and SSJ3 as any saiyajin tapping in to the raw power hidden within; this is why Vegeta, Gohan, Mirai Trunks, Trunks, Goten, Goku Jr, and Vegeta Jr can all become SSJs.

So instead they're really just tapping into the power of Golden Oozaru? I suppose that would make sense, since Saiyans were meant to keep their tails and the three stages of SSJ may just be the body's way of "expressing" Oozaru without the tail, if you catch my meaning. I wouldn't really expect to see a Golden Oozaru with long SSJ3 hair, for example . . . but then, who's to say? It's all theoretical at best, right?


At best, I've gone slightly off-topic in areas . . . but I missed quite a bit by not looking, and considering I'm the one who bothered everyone in the first place I shouldn't have waited this long to add to the discussion.

(Li'l Lemmy, who talks a lot.)

[Rocketman]

I don't know either. I still can't figure out why he went Golden Oozaru instead of regular Oozaru. SSJ4 is simply the result of controling GO. Vegeta was capable of controlling both forms of Oozaru from the get go but he never went SSJ4.

Vegeta says later it was because he wasn't a pure-blooded Saiyan at the time, and only a pure-blood can go SSJ4.

[Dayspring]

I don't know either. I still can't figure out why he went Golden Oozaru instead of regular Oozaru. SSJ4 is simply the result of controling GO. Vegeta was capable of controlling both forms of Oozaru from the get go but he never went SSJ4.

Vegeta says later it was because he wasn't a pure-blooded Saiyan at the time, and only a pure-blood can go SSJ4.

One thing I always loved about the SSJ rules is how they're only mentioned when being broken.

[SuperFusion]

What do you mean?

[Sodame]

think that ssj4 goku is as strong as vegetto just that he is !1! man.
baby was strong as kid buu. but when he got in too (gO)) mode he was 7x stronger then kid buu I say 7 cuz he's was not a full blooded saiyan that why he could not be ssj4 like goku Go to [link removed by administrator] THANKYOU-

[Dayspring]

think that ssj4 goku is as strong as vegetto just that he is !1! man.
baby was strong as kid buu. but when he got in too (gO)) mode he was 7x stronger then kid buu I say 7 cuz he's was not a full blooded saiyan that why he could not be ssj4 like goku Go to [link removed by administrator] THANKYOU-

An abandoned site run by a little kid who admits to pulling everything out of his ass. Yeah...THAT's the site you want to reference.

[BleachTrunks]

Well, I dont feel bad about posting in this topic now since I wasn't the one to necropost it =)

Rereading through the thread I am starting to rethink how I look at SSJ4. I, like most of you, believe that GT is about as true to DB/DBZ as the movies, but it was an enjoyable "what if" at least. So, with all the talk of Oozaru and SSJ4, I started thinking that SSJ4 itself was a bad name for what it was describing. It seems to me that "SSJ4" is not really a SSJ transformation at all and that SSJ3 may not be the last SSJ transformation. The only reason why SSJ4 is called such is because Goku achieved it first. Reason with me here: had Vegeta achieved it first, calling it SSJ4 wouldn't make nearly so much sense since "SSJ4" would be his "SSJ3". Thus the nomenclature here is only based on when it occured in the timeline. Since we know a Saiyan can go SSJ4 without being able to go SSJ3 (unless you believe Vegeta could go SSJ3...), I think it is a natural assumption to make that the gold haired transformations are completely removed from the SSJ4 form. Furthermore, if you subscribe to this theory about power increasing by a multiplier in SSJ4 form due to the inherant Oozaru nature of the form, then it makes zero sense that SSJ4 be the 4th of the super saiyan transformations. It seems to me that it is entirely plausible that there are more gold haired forms and Oozaru and "SSJ4" fit into their own categories. Thus even if Goku or Vegeta found a gold haired ssj4, ssj5, ssj6, etc, the GT SSJ4 would still be the strongest possible form they could attain... thus making the golden haired forms completely worthless except as training tools. I don't like this idea, since I highly prefer the golden haired forms(in particular ssj2) to the red haired monkey form, but it seems to make the most sense within the continuity of the GT story. And that's just another reason why I will never consider GT canon.