Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

[hleV]

KKx2 is a 2x multiplier. An amplification.
SS is 50x multiplier. That's also an amplification.
SS3 is 4x SS2 and the limit. Also an amplification.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SS is 50x multiplier. That's also an amplification. SS3 is 4x SS2 and the limit. Also an amplification.

But wouldn't that make SS3 Goku's or Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha as strong as their punch?

[hleV]

Punch is not energy/ki. In the sense of power, yes, in the sense of result, no.

[Kamiccolo9]

Punch is not energy/ki. In the sense of power, yes, in the sense of result, no.

Goku had already achieved SSJ3 before the Buu Arc. If he had reached the limits of his power, why would he say that he'd get stronger to prepare for his fight with the reincarnated Buu?

[hleV]

Punch is not energy/ki. In the sense of power, yes, in the sense of result, no.

Goku had already achieved SSJ3 before the Buu Arc. If he had reached the limits of his power, why would he say that he'd get stronger to prepare for his fight with the reincarnated Buu?

The limits can be broken. I kinda meant that however strong a base Saiyan is at a time, his limit/max hidden power is 400x that, and SS3 can bring that power out.
Or like Godo described it, reserves. Through training, Saiyans increase their strength, and their reserves grow as well. But to use those reserves, a Saiyan either needs to transform (from Oozaru up to SS3) or use a special technique like Kaio-ken. Or, of course, get those reserves unlocked with a ritual.

[Kamiccolo9]

Punch is not energy/ki. In the sense of power, yes, in the sense of result, no.

Goku had already achieved SSJ3 before the Buu Arc. If he had reached the limits of his power, why would he say that he'd get stronger to prepare for his fight with the reincarnated Buu?

The limits can be broken. I kinda meant that however strong a base Saiyan is at a time, his limit/max hidden power is 400x that, and SS3 can bring that power out.

But Kaio-Ken is all about surpassing one's current limits

Kaio-Ken
First Appearance: Chapter 226
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku
Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)
Anime: The first movie it was used in was “The World’s Strongest Guy”, when it was shown during the battle with Dr. Uiro (Daizenshuu 6, p.52). In “Super Decisive Battle for the Earth”, Goku challenged Tullece with Kaio-Ken x10 (Daizenshuu 6, p.60). In the movies after that, the “~x” number mark wasn’t used.

So why should Gohan's potential being brought out make him incapable of using the technique?

[hleV]

One's own ability is not hidden power reserves.

So why should Gohan's potential being brought out make him incapable of using the technique?

Gohan already has access to all the power that is available to him. Kaio-ken can't bring out more power because there's none left to bring out.

[Kamiccolo9]

One's own ability is not hidden power reserves.

But Kaio-Ken is never stated nor hinted at drawing on one's power reserves. Just that it amplifies battle power.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Seriously hleV, you are just making things up. What is so wrong with a ki amplifier that doesn't draw on one's hidden reserves? I can assure that a Kamehameha from Gohan still amplifies his power even though it was all brought to the surface.

[hleV]

One's own ability is not hidden power reserves.

But Kaio-Ken is never stated nor hinted at drawing on one's power reserves. Just that it amplifies battle power.

Should that make me believe that Kaio-ken grants power out of its ass? It's not stated that SS or SS2 use more of a Saiyan's hidden power reserves neither, but SS3 is stated to draw a Saiyan's power to its limits. Are we to assume that SS3 works differently than SS/SS2 when it comes to giving the user more power? They draw power as well, just not to the limit. Kaio-ken can't surpass that limit because there's no more power available.

Seriously hleV, you are just making things up. What is so wrong with a ki amplifier that doesn't draw on one's hidden reserves?

I already said it. Logic.

I can assure that a Kamehameha from Gohan still amplifies his power even though it was all brought to the surface.

No, you can't. KKx4 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (because it's already amplified by KK). KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would have taken more damage). SS Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would be toast).

[TheMightyOzaru]

How do you know that? Goku was heavily fatigued when he used the attack. It's clearly not a logical conclusion when it's based on nothing.

[Kamiccolo9]

One's own ability is not hidden power reserves.

But Kaio-Ken is never stated nor hinted at drawing on one's power reserves. Just that it amplifies battle power.

Should that make me believe that Kaio-ken grants power out of its ass? It's not stated that SS or SS2 use more of a Saiyan's hidden power reserves neither, but SS3 is stated to draw a Saiyan's power to its limits. Are we to assume that SS3 works differently than SS/SS2 when it comes to giving the user more power? They draw power as well, just not to the limit. Kaio-ken can't surpass that limit because there's no more power available.

Why can't it? It's a technique of the gods that makes someone stronger. If it was the exact same kind of powerup as SSJ, then why would it injure the user, even though far less power is being channeled? This leads me to believe that the power comes from a different source as SSJ, and that it's this process that causes the damage. If amplifiying your ki dramatically injured you, then SSJ should leave Goku and co. lying on the ground writhing in pain. And limits are broken all the time. As I see it, Kaio-Ken is a way of temporarily breaking those limits.

I can assure that a Kamehameha from Gohan still amplifies his power even though it was all brought to the surface.

No, you can't. KKx4 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (because it's already amplified by KK). KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would have taken more damage). SS Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would be toast).

And that's only if you assume that ki attacks have consistent multipliers, which is never indicated in the series.

[hleV]

How do you know that? Goku was heavily fatigued when he used the attack. It's clearly not a logical conclusion when it's based on nothing.

I don't. I'm just using pure logic. If I could prove anything, I would've done that. It's DB, not everything can be explained logically. But if we completely disregard logic, then there's no longer a point for in-universe discussions.

If it was the exact same kind of powerup as SSJ, then why would it injure the user, even though far less power is being channeled?

SS is a transformation. It toughens the body and gives access to more of the Saiyan's power. KK is just a ki technique which forces the user to draw more of his power, this is where the side effects kick in. Then there's Gohan, who can draw some power through anger, without any technique.

No, you can't. KKx4 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (because it's already amplified by KK). KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would have taken more damage). SS Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would be toast).

And that's only if you assume that ki attacks have consistent multipliers, which is never indicated in the series.

Not sure what does that have to do with anything. I'm saying that neither KK or SS appear to allow further power amplification through energy attacks. And that should apply to "Ultimate" Gohan as well, as he has that SS power accessible.

[Kamiccolo9]

How do you know that? Goku was heavily fatigued when he used the attack. It's clearly not a logical conclusion when it's based on nothing.

I don't. I'm just using pure logic. If I could prove anything, I would've done that. It's DB, not everything can be explained logically. But if we completely disregard logic, then there's no longer a point for in-universe discussions.

If it was the exact same kind of powerup as SSJ, then why would it injure the user, even though far less power is being channeled?

SS is a transformation. It toughens the body and gives access to more of the Saiyan's power. KK is just a ki technique which forces the user to draw more of his power, this is where the side effects kick in. Then there's Gohan, who can draw some power through anger, without any technique.

And this makes me go back to nothing saying that Kaio-Ken draws on hidden power. All that is said is that it makes the user stronger. Seeing as every time dormant power is being used it is mentioned, whether it's Gohan's rage boosts, or Babidi drawing out Vegeta's hidden power, or the Old Kaioshin bringing out Gohan's full potential, or Guru unlocking Krillin and Gohan's hidden potential, or Goku's hidden power being brought out by the Super Divine Water, etc. Why wouldn't they mention Kaio-Ken drawing out the user's hidden potential as well?

No, you can't. KKx4 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (because it's already amplified by KK). KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would have taken more damage). SS Goku's Kamehameha didn't amplify his power (otherwise Freeza would be toast).

And that's only if you assume that ki attacks have consistent multipliers, which is never indicated in the series.

Not sure what does that have to do with anything. I'm saying that neither KK or SS appear to allow further power amplification through energy attacks. And that should apply to "Ultimate" Gohan as well, as he has that SS power accessible.[/quote]
Vegeta has Cell wait for him to charge up his Final Flash. If he couldn't amplify it, then why take the time to charge it up? Goku says that he has to take time to amplify his power in order to wipe out Pure Buu with a strong attack.

[goku the krump dancer]

I'm gonna go ahead and say yes he would be able to use the technique. I always saw kaioken as a type of technique that allows ki to amplify ki with out drawing on hidden potential which is why it causes so much stress want you start pushing it.

[hleV]

Why wouldn't they mention Kaio-Ken drawing out the user's hidden potential as well?

Why would they?

Vegeta has Cell wait for him to charge up his Final Flash. If he couldn't amplify it, then why take the time to charge it up? Goku says that he has to take time to amplify his power in order to wipe out Pure Buu with a strong attack.

Yeah, I haven't completely dismissed the possibility that techniques can amplify power even while SS, just that it doesn't seem to happen all that often (I think FF is the only time). Perhaps Final Flash is so extreme that it can still amplify the user's power even though the transformation already increased it by quite good amount. SS Grade I doesn't use all the reserves of a Saiyan's power, there's still plenty left for Final Flash.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why wouldn't they mention Kaio-Ken drawing out the user's hidden potential as well?

Why would they?

Because every other time someone was drawing on a character's hidden potential, it was said so. Kaio-Ken is said to amplify what's there, not bring out more of a person's power.

Vegeta has Cell wait for him to charge up his Final Flash. If he couldn't amplify it, then why take the time to charge it up? Goku says that he has to take time to amplify his power in order to wipe out Pure Buu with a strong attack.

Yeah, I haven't completely dismissed the possibility that techniques can amplify power even while SS, just that it doesn't seem to happen all that often (I think FF is the only time). Perhaps Final Flash is so extreme that it can still amplify the user's power even though the transformation already increased it by quite good amount. SS Grade I doesn't use all the reserves of a Saiyan's power, there's still plenty left for Final Flash.

Cell was also much stronger than Goku, even while he was suppressed, yet Goku was able to blow his top half off with a Kamehameha. And Goku said that if he could gather enough power for a strong attack, he could kill Buu.

[Draken]

Don't call it logic and then not bother to explain it, because it's obviously not logical when almost everyone else does not see your so-called logic. You just said you agreed there are really no limits, then you said Gohan's power is all brought out and he reached his limit.

[Insertclevername]

I don't see why not. It would make Gohan more "godly" as then he would have a Kaioshin power up and a Kaio made technique.

[hleV]

Don't call it logic and then not bother to explain it, because it's obviously not logical when almost everyone else does not see your so-called logic. You just said you agreed there are really no limits, then you said Gohan's power is all brought out and he reached his limit.

The logic is that power doesn't come from nowhere. I've explained that pretty darn well. I never said Gohan couldn't become stronger through, say, training, I said that he couldn't increase his ki any further through ki-based techniques like KK, because all of his ki is already brought out. I have no idea how would that work if "Ultimate" Gohan trained to further increase his strength. Would all of his reserves be still available to him? Or would he need to transform/use the KK/use an energy attack? That, I don't know. But the one "Ultimate" Gohan we know was at his limit (of that time) already.

To explain what exactly am I basing my opinion on, it's the statement that SS3 brings all of a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits. We know that SS3 is a 400x base multiplier, and also a Saiyan's limit (in the sense that at a time, a Saiyan's max power is 400x his base). So, "Ultimate" Gohan has all that hidden power (and beyond, perhaps) accessible to him without transformations. So if he's already at his limit, how can KK allow him to go even above that?

If KK and SS worked differently in terms of granting power, Goku would've used KK as a SS and it wouldn't do any more harm than in base form. But he didn't, implying that through a technique like KK one can only go up to 20x times his strength. To use more of their hidden powers, one needs to transform.