Theories on Super Saiyan Multipliers

[Axiom]

Full Power SSJ3 Goku being stronger than all would make him stronger than Vegetto.
4x multiplier works fine.The SSJ2 multiplier is more of a problem, but it still works.

Well, not stronger tha Vegetto of course, but stronger than Gohan and Gotenks for sure.

Except he's not. All evidence makes Gotenks and Gohan way stronger than Goku.

Quite the contrary - Goku suggesting having both Gotenks AND Gohan fight Kid Buu (why mention both when we know Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, and doesn't have a time limit on his power?) Vegeta's refusal of this option, and instead electing to go with a attack that hasn't killed any enemies in all of DBZ. Then there is Goku's wish as he kills Kid-Buu, revealing his respect of his power and the desire to one day fight him again. (Why, isn't Gohan supposed to be many times stronger? ) And finally, when Uub does appear, Goku takes him as his pupil, in hopes that one day he'll be Earth's protector. Why not Gohan, who again is thought to be many times stronger?
Battle of the God's implies that the Gap between the big 3 is rather small as well, as does the Son Goku special, where Gotenks SSJ level punch was brushed off, but they enemy was easily one shotted by Goku (gag scene, perhaps?)

I'll just stick with my theory, it makes sense to me.

[Kamiccolo9]

Quite the contrary - Goku suggesting having both Gotenks AND Gohan fight Kid Buu (why mention both when we know Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, and doesn't have a time limit on his power?) Vegeta's refusal of this option, and instead electing to go with a attack that hasn't killed any enemies in all of DBZ. Then there is Goku's wish as he kills Kid-Buu, revealing his respect of his power and the desire to one day fight him again. (Why, isn't Gohan supposed to be many times stronger? ) And finally, when Uub does appear, Goku takes him as his pupil, in hopes that one day he'll be Earth's protector. Why not Gohan, who again is thought to be many times stronger?
Battle of the God's implies that the Gap between the big 3 is rather small as well, as does the Son Goku special, where Gotenks SSJ level punch was brushed off, but they enemy was easily one shotted by Goku (gag scene, perhaps?)

I'll just stick with my theory, it makes sense to me.

I suppose it makes sense. If you're heavily biased and in complete denial.

[Axiom]

Quite the contrary - Goku suggesting having both Gotenks AND Gohan fight Kid Buu (why mention both when we know Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, and doesn't have a time limit on his power?) Vegeta's refusal of this option, and instead electing to go with a attack that hasn't killed any enemies in all of DBZ. Then there is Goku's wish as he kills Kid-Buu, revealing his respect of his power and the desire to one day fight him again. (Why, isn't Gohan supposed to be many times stronger? ) And finally, when Uub does appear, Goku takes him as his pupil, in hopes that one day he'll be Earth's protector. Why not Gohan, who again is thought to be many times stronger?
Battle of the God's implies that the Gap between the big 3 is rather small as well, as does the Son Goku special, where Gotenks SSJ level punch was brushed off, but they enemy was easily one shotted by Goku (gag scene, perhaps?)

I'll just stick with my theory, it makes sense to me.

I suppose it makes sense. If you're heavily biased and in complete denial.

Obviously, but it goes both ways.

[Kamiccolo9]

Quite the contrary - Goku suggesting having both Gotenks AND Gohan fight Kid Buu (why mention both when we know Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, and doesn't have a time limit on his power?) Vegeta's refusal of this option, and instead electing to go with a attack that hasn't killed any enemies in all of DBZ. Then there is Goku's wish as he kills Kid-Buu, revealing his respect of his power and the desire to one day fight him again. (Why, isn't Gohan supposed to be many times stronger? ) And finally, when Uub does appear, Goku takes him as his pupil, in hopes that one day he'll be Earth's protector. Why not Gohan, who again is thought to be many times stronger?
Battle of the God's implies that the Gap between the big 3 is rather small as well, as does the Son Goku special, where Gotenks SSJ level punch was brushed off, but they enemy was easily one shotted by Goku (gag scene, perhaps?)

I'll just stick with my theory, it makes sense to me.

I suppose it makes sense. If you're heavily biased and in complete denial.

Obviously, but it goes both ways.

You would have to assume that Goku became a compulsive liar in the Buu Arc. He would have to have been lying about Gotenks' strength multiple times, lying about not being able to beat Super Buu, lying about Gohan's strength. Why would he prefer to PERMANENTLY FUSE WITH VEGETA if he was capable of taking out Super Buu on his own? That's just stupid, and this theory is totally baseless.
I'm usually willing to work with other peoples' opinions, but this one is just stupid. It makes Goku look stupid, and it makes him into a compulsive liar. Goku, who is supposed to be a pure hearted good guy.
There is no way to defend this theory without showing extreme bias and selective reading. Bringing the anime in only proves your desperate. Believe what you want, but be aware that by supporting this theory with zero evidence supporting it, and tons of evidence to the contrary makes you have zero credibility.

[RandomGuy96]

Random theory: maybe Gotenks' SS3 multiplier is x200 instead of x400 like Goku's, because SS3 just multiplies by 4 off of the previous form, and Gotenks went directly to SS3 instead of going to SS2 first, evidenced by the kids being surprised that they discovered a level beyond Super Saiyan, implying they discovered no others...?

[Kamiccolo9]

Random theory: maybe Gotenks' SS3 multiplier is x200 instead of x400 like Goku's, because SS3 just multiplies by 4 off of the previous form, and Gotenks went directly to SS3 instead of going to SS2 first, evidenced by the kids being surprised that they discovered a level beyond Super Saiyan, implying they discovered no others...?

Well, the Daizenshuu says he goes SSJ2, and there is a panel in the manga where he appears to be in the form. And SSJ2 is extremely similar to SSJ, so maybe Goten and Trunks didn't know it was a separate form?
I don't see any problem with bloated levels, as long as they match what's in the manga. The manga has it's fair share of bloat as well, what with Freeza being 1000 times stronger than his strongest henchmen, and Goku going from weaker than Vegeta to many times stronger than the powered up Vegeta in the Cell Arc.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, the Daizenshuu says he goes SSJ2, and there is a panel in the manga where he appears to be in the form. And SSJ2 is extremely similar to SSJ, so maybe Goten and Trunks didn't know it was a separate form?
I don't see any problem with bloated levels, as long as they match what's in the manga. The manga has it's fair share of bloat as well, what with Freeza being 1000 times stronger than his strongest henchmen, and Goku going from weaker than Vegeta to many times stronger than the powered up Vegeta in the Cell Arc.

I always thought that was just supposed to be part of his SS3 transformation and not a form itself. If what we saw was REALLY their SS2 form, then they definitely would've noticed the difference between it and SS1, sine their hair gets bigger in the same manner as kid Gohan's. And either way, they should notice a transformation that suddenly causes their power to spike. I mean I just kind of think:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”

Implies that it's the only transformation they got, and they were working with normal Super Saiyan until then.
And I'm more or less ignoring what the Daizenshuu says on Gotenks for a minute, since it says Gotenks pre ROSAT < Vegeta, suggesting Piccolo and Goku are the dumbest people in the galaxy.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, the Daizenshuu says he goes SSJ2, and there is a panel in the manga where he appears to be in the form. And SSJ2 is extremely similar to SSJ, so maybe Goten and Trunks didn't know it was a separate form?
I don't see any problem with bloated levels, as long as they match what's in the manga. The manga has it's fair share of bloat as well, what with Freeza being 1000 times stronger than his strongest henchmen, and Goku going from weaker than Vegeta to many times stronger than the powered up Vegeta in the Cell Arc.

I always thought that was just supposed to be part of his SS3 transformation and not a form itself. If what we saw was REALLY their SS2 form, then they definitely would've noticed the difference between it and SS1, sine their hair gets bigger in the same manner as kid Gohan's. And either way, they should notice a transformation that suddenly causes their power to spike.

And I'm more or less ignoring what the Daizenshuu says on Gotenks for a minute, since it says Gotenks pre ROSAT < Vegeta, suggesting Piccolo and Goku are the dumbest people in the galaxy.

Would they notice their hair getting slightly longer though? It's not like they can see it. And I don't see Gotenks staring at himself in a mirror to compare hair length
As for the power increase, their power was already rising insanely rapidly during this training for some reason. And nobody considers the boost from SSJ1 to SSJ2 to be that big of a boost in this arc.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, the Daizenshuu says he goes SSJ2, and there is a panel in the manga where he appears to be in the form. And SSJ2 is extremely similar to SSJ, so maybe Goten and Trunks didn't know it was a separate form?
I don't see any problem with bloated levels, as long as they match what's in the manga. The manga has it's fair share of bloat as well, what with Freeza being 1000 times stronger than his strongest henchmen, and Goku going from weaker than Vegeta to many times stronger than the powered up Vegeta in the Cell Arc.

I always thought that was just supposed to be part of his SS3 transformation and not a form itself. If what we saw was REALLY their SS2 form, then they definitely would've noticed the difference between it and SS1, sine their hair gets bigger in the same manner as kid Gohan's. And either way, they should notice a transformation that suddenly causes their power to spike.

And I'm more or less ignoring what the Daizenshuu says on Gotenks for a minute, since it says Gotenks pre ROSAT < Vegeta, suggesting Piccolo and Goku are the dumbest people in the galaxy.

Would they notice their hair getting slightly longer though? It's not like they can see it. And I don't see Gotenks staring at himself in a mirror to compare hair length
As for the power increase, their power was already rising insanely rapidly during this training for some reason. And nobody considers the boost from SSJ1 to SSJ2 to be that big of a boost in this arc.

Well he DID look in a mirror upon transforming against Super Buu...

It's still an enormous boost. I highly doubt the kids got twice as strong from training two weeks in the ROSAT, so there's no reason they shouldn't notice SS2; they have the same ways of noticing it as SS3. And if they were intended to have learned it, why wouldn't it be shown on-screen and implied to be the other case?

[Kamiccolo9]

Well he DID look in a mirror upon transforming against Super Buu...

It's still an enormous boost. I highly doubt the kids got twice as strong from training two weeks in the ROSAT, so there's no reason they shouldn't notice SS2; they have the same ways of noticing it as SS3. And if they were intended to have learned it, why wouldn't it be shown on-screen and implied to be the other case?

Gag scene
Their power boost was crazy anyway. And this is Gotenks we're talking about. He is kinda an idiot.
He may have discovered SSJ2 by accident. I can see him powering up in SSJ and going into the form without even noticing. We know that Vegetto didn't know his full strength at first, so maybe Gotenks didn't either? Power doesn't instantly double, from what we've seen. It climbs. So maybe he just kept powering up, and reached SSJ2?

As for it being shown, I still think it was. But besides that, SSJ3 was the new big thing. No one cared about the SSJ2's anymore. It's the same reason that Vegeta isn't specifically mentioned to be one against Pure Buu; SSJ2 doesn't matter anymore.

[PerfectFreeza]

Quite the contrary - Goku suggesting having both Gotenks AND Gohan fight Kid Buu (why mention both when we know Gohan is stronger than Gotenks, and doesn't have a time limit on his power?) Vegeta's refusal of this option, and instead electing to go with a attack that hasn't killed any enemies in all of DBZ. Then there is Goku's wish as he kills Kid-Buu, revealing his respect of his power and the desire to one day fight him again. (Why, isn't Gohan supposed to be many times stronger? ) And finally, when Uub does appear, Goku takes him as his pupil, in hopes that one day he'll be Earth's protector. Why not Gohan, who again is thought to be many times stronger?
Battle of the God's implies that the Gap between the big 3 is rather small as well, as does the Son Goku special, where Gotenks SSJ level punch was brushed off, but they enemy was easily one shotted by Goku (gag scene, perhaps?)

I'll just stick with my theory, it makes sense to me.

Buu absorbs one of them.They are done for.With both Gotenks and Gohan, there is no way he can absorb one of them, since the 2nd one would save the victim.Plus, it's just playing safe and they were just revived, meaning their ki wasn't full.
Goku was the one to kill Buu and it had to be dramatic climax.Gohan one-shoting Buu wouldn't be much of a climax, would it?
Pure Buu was his equal and Goku lost that fight.He wanted a rematch.His sons(and that's what I hate about the EOZ) don't care about fighting and being the protectors.
BOG doesn't really imply that, just that what Vegeta heard, was true.2 shotting Goku in a such a ridiculous ways(slapped and finger flicked in the forehead) is something Gohan and Gotenks can't pull.
Gotenks's punch wasn't brushed off and he was just toying around, using these names for punches and all.Yes, gag scene indeed.Vegeta was going to beat Aka solo anyway.

[Axiom]

Goku's a smart guy, but he wants to avoid running into battle without some sort of plan. He tells Vegeta originally that SSJ3 isn't a first resort for him, it's a final option. We know that SSJ3 is extremely volatile stage, Goku is worn out a few minutes after using it to fight Fat-Buu, Gotenks can't hold fusion for more than 5 minutes with it, Later we are show that despite it's amazing output and sheer power, Goku is still unfamiliar with the form and can't hold it long enough to finish the job.

We are shown (and told) that SSJ3 Goku is immensely powerful, so powerful that people like Vegeta are completely confident in its power, even when Goku is not. Vegeta saw SSJ3 from the afterlife (and we can assume he felt Goku's power) and from this, Vegeta is confident Goku and himself can manage something against the lower forms of Buu (including Super-Buu) Even after Goku finally relents and does decide to fight Kid Buu under his own power, Vegeta is astounded at how powerful Goku truly is - he admits as such when Goku reveals that Kid-Buu is actually stronger than he originally believed him to be.

Goku, not wanting to rely on his power, knows he has the power, but he's not sure he can effectively apply it. He suggest fusion as an option multiple times as a sure gamble and would have used it against Pure Buu (even over the option of allowing Gotenks and Gohan a shot at fighting him, leading to the premise that Goku may in fact be stronger, albeit it may be just for a brief moment.)

It's actually an excellently written when you look at it from this perspective – Goku takes a step back, realizing that he won’t be around forever, wants to give someone else the spotlight. From there on, we see the story progress that while the children may have the potential, they aren’t quite there yet, and the world still needs Goku. People are so confident and reliant on Goku, that his very presence and words bring a sense of calm and confidence to the situation. It's just an awesome experience when you really try to immerse yourself in the story from this perspective.

[RandomGuy96]

Well he DID look in a mirror upon transforming against Super Buu...

It's still an enormous boost. I highly doubt the kids got twice as strong from training two weeks in the ROSAT, so there's no reason they shouldn't notice SS2; they have the same ways of noticing it as SS3. And if they were intended to have learned it, why wouldn't it be shown on-screen and implied to be the other case?

Gag scene
Their power boost was crazy anyway. And this is Gotenks we're talking about. He is kinda an idiot.
He may have discovered SSJ2 by accident. I can see him powering up in SSJ and going into the form without even noticing. We know that Vegetto didn't know his full strength at first, so maybe Gotenks didn't either? Power doesn't instantly double, from what we've seen. It climbs. So maybe he just kept powering up, and reached SSJ2?

As for it being shown, I still think it was. But besides that, SSJ3 was the new big thing. No one cared about the SSJ2's anymore. It's the same reason that Vegeta isn't specifically mentioned to be one against Pure Buu; SSJ2 doesn't matter anymore.

Gag character
But that's my point. He got a crazy boost in both transformations, why would he only notice one?

I still think he would have noticed suddenly onlocking a transformation that makes him way stronger. Hell, it would probably be more in character for him to not even bother to get SS3 after getting SS2, since SS2 would totally be enough to roflstomp Majin Buu, hell even his base form is overkill. Unless he never powered up into SS2 and always just 'used' it in the process of transforming to SS3, but I don't think that's what's implied; he seems to regard Super Saiyan as the wall that was passed with Super Saiyan 3 without mentioning the other level beyond Super Saiyan, implying that's all he got. The quote that they can't believe there's something beyond Super Saiyan just indicates that... they're surprised there's something beyond Super Saiyan. Not the words of people who had already discovered a level beyond Super Saiyan.

Of course it's completely possible that Toriyama had just ALREADY forgot about SS2... but I don't think so since his art later seems to make a distinction between SS and SS2 Vegeta.

[PerfectFreeza]

To Axiom:Vegeta is wrong about him being able to take Super Buu.He was wrong about Fat Buu, so he can be wrong here.Buu's ki is like a lie.
Not as a gamble, but as the only way of beating Super Buu.Gotenks and Gohan were dead, how can they fight somebody, when they are dead?
No, you are looking too much into it.We have interviews from the man himself, that he simply changed his thoughts about Gohan.
While it is nice, I don't think Toriyama intended it like that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gag character
But that's my point. He got a crazy boost in both transformations, why would he only notice one?

I still think he would have noticed suddenly onlocking a transformation that makes him way stronger. Hell, it would probably be more in character for him to not even bother to get SS3 after getting SS2, since SS2 would totally be enough to roflstomp Majin Buu, hell even his base form is overkill. Unless he never powered up into SS2 and always just 'used' it in the process of transforming to SS3, but I don't think that's what's implied; he seems to regard Super Saiyan as the wall that was passed with Super Saiyan 3 without mentioning the other level beyond Super Saiyan, implying that's all he got. The quote that they can't believe there's something beyond Super Saiyan just indicates that... they're surprised there's something beyond Super Saiyan. Not the words of people who had already discovered a level beyond Super Saiyan.

Of course it's completely possible that Toriyama had just ALREADY forgot about SS2... but I don't think so since his art later seems to make a distinction between SS and SS2 Vegeta.

That quote doesn't make sense anyway, since they sensed their dads fighting, they saw Vegeta in SSJ2, and they, with everyone else on Earth, so Goku's demonstration of the form. So Gotenks is just dumb.
I suppose it could work like that. I just don't like the idea of Gotenks skipping a form just for no reason. That panel looks like SSJ2, the Daizenshuu says he's a SSJ2, so I think he's a SSJ2.
Also, Trunks and Goten have seen SSJ3, and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I can see them training exclusively for that.

[Axiom]

To be honest, I think Goku planned on the boys attaining SSJ2 as Gotenks, but not SSJ3. He was suprised that they attained SSJ at their age, and assumes fusion would make them that much stronger. The story indicates the boys are gifted and have near effortless power (trusted in the hands of children) but Goku's reaction to SSJ3 Gotenks just leads me to believe they just weren't that strong.

[Axiom]

To Axiom:Vegeta is wrong about him being able to take Super Buu.He was wrong about Fat Buu, so he can be wrong here.Buu's ki is like a lie.
Not as a gamble, but as the only way of beating Super Buu.Gotenks and Gohan were dead, how can they fight somebody, when they are dead?
No, you are looking too much into it.We have interviews from the man himself, that he simply changed his thoughts about Gohan.
While it is nice, I don't think Toriyama intended it like that.

Goku offered wishing them back to fight Buu as an option. Notice no one else suggested as such, not even the Kais.

[RandomGuy96]

That quote doesn't make sense anyway, since they sensed their dads fighting, they saw Vegeta in SSJ2, and they, with everyone else on Earth, so Goku's demonstration of the form. So Gotenks is just dumb.
I suppose it could work like that. I just don't like the idea of Gotenks skipping a form just for no reason. That panel looks like SSJ2, the Daizenshuu says he's a SSJ2, so I think he's a SSJ2.
Also, Trunks and Goten have seen SSJ3, and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I can see them training exclusively for that.

It could be that they don't truly know it until they have it themselves; they probably assumed any power changes in the adults were just the adults powering up instead of ascending.

I feel that him never getting it is kind of implied at least. This is a thread for Super Saiyan multiplier theories after all. And like I said, for a minute I'm ignoring what the Daizenshuu has to say on Gotenks, since according to it Vegeta > Gotenks pre.

Even then, wouldn't they notice their power and hair suddenly change significantly when they go to SS2? They did with SS3 and were absolutely surprised that they could go beyond normal Super Saiyan... not the words of someone who already ascended beyond normal Super Saiyan.

[PerfectFreeza]

You were talking about them using Fusion though.It was way more convinient and Goku had to be the hero.
Besides, how could they even know, that the Namekians had the Balls ready?

[Kamiccolo9]

You were talking about them using Fusion though.It was way more convinient and Goku had to be the hero.
Besides, how could they even know, that the Namekians had the Balls ready?

I made a post a while back about the sheer amount of bullshit luck in that fight. The first sentence is talking about Kaioshin.

He wasn't positive that Goku and Vegeta could pull off beating Buu. And if it weren't for Goku just happening to know the Genki Dama, Mr. Satan just happening to be there, Mr. Buu just happening to pop out and fight Buu, them just happening to have a set of Dragon Balls that just happened to already be gathered and ready for use, and Kaio just happening to have planetary level telepathic skills, then he would have been right.