Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[dbzfan7]

Hasn't Toriyama described Goku and the others at near perfect/maximum strength. If so then without SSJ God there is no way he can surpass Gohan and Gotenks if he is already near/at peak power.

[Godo]

Yeah, keep talking nonsense when you could just read what I wrote and be done with it.

Arrogance.

[TheGmGoken]

Yeah, keep talking nonsense when you could just read what I wrote and be done with it.

Don't be cocky. For all you know people could be reading it and not agree.

[Mjb1985]

Yep that's what I'm going with dbzfan.

The cast is at their maximum power during BOG.

Elder Kaioshin released all of Gohan's potential power and went way beyond that. Everyone else ( Guru, Badibi ) release a beings accessibke potential. Elder Kaioshin brings out everything and then some.

Gohan is at his ultimate peak hence the name Ultimate Gohan.

That's how I see it. Goku can never touch this level of Gohan.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku is explicitly at the absolute height of his power in BOG. From here, he can only ever get weaker due to age, according to Toriyama. And since base Goku is still weaker than Freeza in BOG, and BOG is only a few years after Buu, it's very obvious that he hasn't gotten anywhere NEAR Super Buu, to say nothing of Gotenks and Gohan.

So no; Goku will always be a bug to them no matter what he does, GT wank aside.

[dbzfan7]

Goku is explicitly at the absolute height of his power in BOG. From here, he can only ever get weaker due to age, according to Toriyama. And since base Goku is still weaker than Freeza in BOG, and BOG is only a few years after Buu, it's very obvious that he hasn't gotten anywhere NEAR Super Buu, to say nothing of Gotenks and Gohan.

So no; Goku will always be a bug to them no matter what he does, GT wank aside.

What about the random SSJ God that allows him to magically surpass almost anything.

[Kaboom]

Even about five years after Battle of Gods, in the manga's epilogue, Goku's still not out of his "prime" yet. Neither is Vegeta, who after all of Goku's time spent dead is almost 10 years ahead of Goku in terms of physical aging. Heck, the last thing Goku does as he's flying off with Oob in the final chapter is brazenly declare that he's going to keep getting stronger. Vegeta does likewise in the kanzenban epilogue, promising to defeat Goku someday, which he'd presumably still have to get stronger to do.

So all in all, I think Toriyama's comment about "maximum strength" should be taken with a grain of salt here.

[MDSTSSJ]

Even about five years after Battle of Gods, in the manga's epilogue, Goku's still not out of his "prime" yet. Neither is Vegeta, who after all of Goku's time spent dead is almost 10 years ahead of Goku in terms of physical aging. Heck, the last thing Goku does as he's flying off with Oob in the final chapter is brazenly declare that he's going to keep getting stronger. Vegeta does likewise in the kanzenban epilogue, promising to defeat Goku someday, which he'd presumably still have to get stronger to do.

So all in all, I think Toriyama's comment about "maximum strength" should be taken with a grain of salt here.

I agree! and besides that:

Before killing Pure Boo, Goku says that he will be better. Better? What that better means? Better in figthing techniques? No because Goku is number 1 in fighting techniques among other things. Better because he is gonna master or improve the SSJ3? Maybe yes, I still believe he can. Better to defeat the reincarnation of Boo? Better is not enough to defeat him easily. For me that better means stronger.

Why Kakaroto still training in the Otherworld after the Boo´s arc? To be better? Not a chance. To be better he would have stayed training on Earth instead of going to the Otherworld.

At the end of the BoG´s movie, Beers mentions Goku as having immeasurable latent power. Why Birusu said that if Goku has reached his peak power with his SSJ3 transformation? No sense to me.

Goku is a special case and he is the result of his own efforts. He always find ways to surpass his limits far beyond.

With all do respect, Toriyama is a contradictory character.

[TheGmGoken]

Toriyama is a contradictory character.

I thought he meant the majority of the cast.

[Saiga]

No, I don't think Goku surpassed Gohan or Gotenks. If he had, Oob would no longer be of any interest to him since he'd be well above Pure Boo's strength.

[RandomGuy96]

I like how the author actually gave us a statement on this and people still say "No, the author doesn't know shit, Goku actually is going to get way stronger and become maximum".

Before killing Pure Boo, Goku says that he will be better. Better? What that better means? Better in figthing techniques? No because Goku is number 1 in fighting techniques among other things. Better because he is gonna master or improve the SSJ3? Maybe yes, I still believe he can. Better to defeat the reincarnation of Boo? Better is not enough to defeat him easily. For me that better means stronger.

Why Kakaroto still training in the Otherworld after the Boo´s arc? To be better? Not a chance. To be better he would have stayed training on Earth instead of going to the Otherworld.

At the end of the BoG´s movie, Beers mentions Goku as having immeasurable latent power. Why Birusu said that if Goku has reached his peak power with his SSJ3 transformation? No sense to me.

Goku is a special case and he is the result of his own efforts. He always find ways to surpass his limits far beyond.

With all do respect, Toriyama is a contradictory character.

Better can mean a mix of the above. Buu seemed somewhat stronger than him, so he'll get slightly stronger than/as strong as Buu. Buu was able to outlast him rather easily, so he'll improve his SS3 form (which is crap when you think about it, it lasts like two minutes). Buu was able to project energy faster and take an advantage with his abilities, so Goku will get new techniques. Toriyama seemed to imply BOG Goku > EoZ Goku > Buu Saga Goku.

In addition to improving, he also needs to train to avoid getting weaker. Toriyama said he wasn't at his best strength at the EoZ due to his age, so apparently even with all that training he couldn't overcome his physical limits.

How would Beers know? Either way, that statement would be wrong, as Gohan's latent power >>>>>>> Goku's latent power.

Toriyama wrote the manga- and re-read his comics in preparation for the movie- and still went out of his way to say Goku is at max strength here at least twice.

[TheGmGoken]

I like how the author actually gave us a statement on this and people still say "No, the author doesn't know shit, Goku actually is going to get way stronger and become maximum".

The author is also known to be very forgetful and contradicted himself with the statement. Goku at the end of the managa said he'll get stronger. Now he can't get stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

Word of God is omniscient and infallible within the work. Characters aren't.

[Mjb1985]

Definitely a contradiction. It's hard not to go with the words directly from the author though.

[Son_Gohan]

Yeah, keep talking nonsense when you could just read what I wrote and be done with it.

Rou Kaioshin didn't unlock Gohan's potential, he unlocked his dormant power (aka the power which is already there in him, just inaccessible). They're not the same thing.

It's taken to mean the same thing according to the Daizenshuu.

He draws out Gohan's hidden power.

A Kaioshin of 15 generations ago. He posses the ability to draw out peoples' dormant powers, and draws out Gohan's power. He personally gave his life to Goku, resurrecting him. While he acts gentle, you can depend on him.

The Elder Kaioshin has the unique ability of unlocking peoples' dormant potential by doing a strange dance.

Even about five years after Battle of Gods, in the manga's epilogue, Goku's still not out of his "prime" yet. Neither is Vegeta, who after all of Goku's time spent dead is almost 10 years ahead of Goku in terms of physical aging. Heck, the last thing Goku does as he's flying off with Oob in the final chapter is brazenly declare that he's going to keep getting stronger. Vegeta does likewise in the kanzenban epilogue, promising to defeat Goku someday, which he'd presumably still have to get stronger to do.

So all in all, I think Toriyama's comment about "maximum strength" should be taken with a grain of salt here.

Toriyama clarifies in one of his more recent interviews that it's in Goku's character to always think about getting stronger, not that he actually continues to become stronger:

Have Goku & co. changed from before?
Goku absolutely never changes. Now, as before, he’s someone who only thinks about getting stronger. I think the other characters probably haven’t changed that much, either?

What has changed is probably just appearances; hair colors and whatnot.

[Mjb1985]

Well that settles it, good stuff man.

[Kaboom]

Goku's obviously still young and within his extra-long Saiyan prime, both in Battle of Gods and in the manga's epilogue 5-ish years later. There's no reason whatsoever why he couldn't still get stronger. If you want to make some sense of Toriyama's comment, why not just take it to mean, "I wanted to set the series in a period where the characters were all really strong but BEFORE they got too old and started to peter out?"

Also, look at the line again. Toriyama's not just talking about Goku. He says that "EVERYONE had got to maximum strength." Does that mean little Goten and Trunks? Have they already hit their "maximums" too? Perhaps he only meant "let's set the movie at the point in the series when the characters are strongest." After all, if it was set immediately after Cell, Beers wouldn't be nearly as threatening if we weren't even sure how he'd stack up against Fat Majin Boo.

Clearly WAY too much is being read into this, as usual. I'm honestly flabbergasted that anyone would even humor the idea of, "well, that's it. Goku can't get any stronger no matter what he does." Are you sure we're all looking at the same freakin' series here?

Power level discussions have officially gone too far this time.

[Son_Gohan]

I'm honestly flabbergasted that anyone would even humor the idea of, "well, that's it. Goku can't get any stronger no matter what he does." Are you sure we're all looking at the same freakin' series here?

Power level discussions have officially gone too far this time.

He can get stronger, just not by training; but through new transformations that which he has always relied on in the series.

Unless there are no forms above SSj God then that should be his limit. Had there not existed SSj2 & 3, then SSj1 would've been his maximum strength.

[Kaboom]

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly. Transformations aren't everything. They just amplify the power you've already got by some average amount and can only take you so far. Even when Goku's made his biggest gains from getting new forms to use, he's always still gained strength on top of that through training and effort alone. Always.

Constantly and never-endingly working hard to become stronger is the very CORE of Goku's character. He will ALWAYS keep getting stronger. It's who he is, plain and simple. If you lose sight of that, then you have a very twisted and misguided view of not just the character, but of the series as a whole.

No matter how many in-universe facts you memorize and can recite, if you seriously say and believe, "Goku hit his limits and can't get any stronger no matter how hard he tries," then you don't know jack squat about what Dragon Ball really is.

I'm out of this discussion before it gets any more preposterous. Make use of the report button if I need to do anything moderator-ish.

[MDSTSSJ]

I like how the author actually gave us a statement on this and people still say "No, the author doesn't know shit, Goku actually is going to get way stronger and become maximum".

Better can mean a mix of the above. Buu seemed somewhat stronger than him, so he'll get slightly stronger than/as strong as Buu. Buu was able to outlast him rather easily, so he'll improve his SS3 form (which is crap when you think about it, it lasts like two minutes). Buu was able to project energy faster and take an advantage with his abilities, so Goku will get new techniques. Toriyama seemed to imply BOG Goku > EoZ Goku > Buu Saga Goku.

In addition to improving, he also needs to train to avoid getting weaker. Toriyama said he wasn't at his best strength at the EoZ due to his age, so apparently even with all that training he couldn't overcome his physical limits.

How would Beers know? Either way, that statement would be wrong, as Gohan's latent power >>>>>>> Goku's latent power.

Toriyama wrote the manga- and re-read his comics in preparation for the movie- and still went out of his way to say Goku is at max strength here at least twice.

Yes, Toriyama wrote and re read the manga in preparation for the movie. Yes, Toriyama said something about that. Yes, he invented about the shitty idea that half Saiyans have more latent power than pure Saiyans but suddenly he decides to put in the Beers mouth that Goku have not just latent power, he have IMMEASURABLE latent power. What is going on in the Akira´s head? I don´t know but, what I do know is that he always said that Goku is the strongest of the Universe.