SSJ God not permanent?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That doesn't explain how SSJ God makes sense.

Explain me how pure heart makes sense for it to be a condition for Super Saiyan.

[dbzfan7]

That doesn't explain how SSJ God makes sense.

Explain me how pure heart makes sense for it to be a condition for Super Saiyan.

It doesn't, Vegeta proved it doesn't. It only mentions calm heart. Nothing about being a goody guy or pure evil person. If you want to think calm means pure fine, but in reality just having a high enough power level makes a Saiyan capable of SSJ. We also have SSJ3 having a calmer heart than SSJ2 so does that mean more pure?

The Daizenshuu says otherwise

The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiyans, but in reality any Saiyan that possesses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiyan race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. The outward signs of the transformation include an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils. In addition, a battle power 50 times that of normal is proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

And you still aren't explaining how SSJ God makes sense.

[Dabooyaka]

I don't think it is. Goku thinks Oob is a challenge, that alone tells me Goku can't access Ssj God whenever he feels like it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The manga says pure heart, and Vegeta was pure evil.

And things like that don't have to make sense. It's how the form works in a fictional world.

The conditions to become an Oozaru is to have a tail & look at the full moon. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan is to have a battle power beyond the Saiyan limits, pure heart, to be in danger, and to get extremely angry. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become Super Saiyan Grade 2 is by sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. Because that's how the form works.
The condition to become a Super Saiyan Grade 3 is by inflating muscles to their limit. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan Full Power, is to stay as a Super Saiyan for long periods of time every day. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan 2 is by doing harsh training & getting angry. Because that's how the form works.
The condition to become a Super Saiyan 3 is by doing harsh training. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan God is to be a righteous Saiyan, and to get power from 5 righteous Saiyans. Because that's how the form works.
The condition to absorb realm of power of Super Saiyan God is to spar with an even fighter as a Super Saiyan God. Because that's how the form works.

Thing work as they do because that's how they work. Of course not all of them don't make sense, it's fiction.

[dbzfan7]

The manga says pure heart, and Vegeta was pure evil.

And things like that don't have to make sense. It's how the form works in a fictional world.

The conditions to become an Oozaru is to have a tail & look at the full moon. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan is to have a battle power beyond the Saiyan limits, pure heart, to be in danger, and to get extremely angry. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become Super Saiyan Grade 2 is by sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. Because that's how the form works.
The condition to become a Super Saiyan Grade 3 is by inflating muscles to their limit. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan Full Power, is to stay as a Super Saiyan for long periods of time every day. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan 2 is by doing harsh training & getting angry. Because that's how the form works.
The condition to become a Super Saiyan 3 is by doing harsh training. Because that's how the form works.
The conditions to become a Super Saiyan God is to be a righteous Saiyan, and to get power from 5 righteous Saiyans. Because that's how the form works.
The condition to absorb realm of power of Super Saiyan God is to spar with an even fighter as a Super Saiyan God. Because that's how the form works.

Thing work as they do because that's how they work. Of course not all of them don't make sense, it's fiction.

The whole pure heart thing was a belief, not a fact IMO. Pure evil heart is not a pure heart.

Oozaru works with getting energy from zenos or some shit like that.
SSJ you need a high power level and for some people you need a strong emotion (Goten and Trunks only needed a high power level Trunks doesn't seem pure to me)
The grade forms make sense as Kaioken had done basically the same thing.
SSJ full power makes sense as it's just SSJ while the SSJ's trained to get rid of the strain by not stressing the their ki in death battles.
Super Saiyan 2 required and extreme emotion and mastering SSJ
SSJ3 requires long training and an extremely strong body to handle it's massive ki drain and drawbacks
SSJG has some kind of ritual which allowed the major boost (my theory)
SSJG being able to abosrb power like that makes no sense as its a transformation and not a power up.

Your not even rationalizing. Your saying it's fiction so anything that doesn't make sense is perfectly fine. This is also an in-universe thread so you can't use "fiction" as an answer. You need an in-universe answer. Maybe you can rationalize it out of universe, but in-universe maybe you can't.

IMO it's bullshit and doesn't make sense.

[Zephyr]

... The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai arc says "hi".

The manga's vague (power wise) epilogue doesn't provide any concrete answers on anything. It really seems like it being permanent or temporary can still be made to work in-universe.

Remember how that follow up story to Episode of Bardock answered all of our questions? Me neither. I wouldn't get my hopes up for anything any time soon. And this annoys me.

Well, I never said I was expecting one, nor am I really getting my hopes up for one, I was just pointing out that BoG by itself leaves things too vague for there to be any right answer. And that's not really the same, EoB was a tie in for an arcade game in Japan. BoG is a full international theatrical release that received funding from the government.

Except that it's a completely invalid comparison.

How so? You can accept the bullshit that the manga pulls. So you're already accepting bullshit. So whether or not something is bullshit seems to not be an important catalyst for whether or not it should accepted.

Unless you're operating under the logic that if it's bullshit AND not originating from the source material then it's deemed unacceptable, which does make sense I suppose. There's also the idea that sure, the manga has bullshit, but we have to accept that bullshit. Accepting more bullshit that's not necessary to accept is pointless. More bullshit than what is necessary isn't a good thing, so it would be best to minimize the bullshit that need be accepted.

I have no problem accepting the bullshit-ridden supplementary material myself. It's gives more things to speculate and try and to figure out. Keeps the enjoyment of the series alive, for me at least.

[dbzfan7]

How so? You can accept the bullshit that the manga pulls. So you're already accepting bullshit. So whether or not something is bullshit seems to not be an important catalyst for whether or not it should accepted.

Unless you're operating under the logic that if it's bullshit AND not originating from the source material then it's deemed unacceptable, which does make sense I suppose. There's also the idea that sure, the manga has bullshit, but we have to accept that bullshit. Accepting more bullshit that's not necessary to accept is pointless. More bullshit than what is necessary isn't a good thing, so it would be best to minimize the bullshit that need be accepted.

I have no problem accepting the bullshit-ridden supplementary material myself. It's gives more things to speculate and try and to figure out. Keeps the enjoyment of the series alive, for me at least.

THIS. I think Goku holding on to SSJ God power after the time limit is bullshit. But perhaps a good theory can make me change my mind. So far it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Zephyr]

There's always the potential idea that he was able to run on the fumes of the transformation, so to speak. Like, the form primarily has a limit, but after it runs out there's still some traces of the ki of the form remaining. If the user is as proficient a ki user as Goku, he can latch on to the very last bit of fumes that remain within the user's body after the primary limit has run its course. The amount of fumes do not correlate with the strength of the transformation, only the duration.

Or for a different analogy, think of activating the transformation as turning a key to start a car. First, the key must be put into the ignition, and then it must be turned. Once the form runs out of time, the key is turned the other way and the car is turned off. Afterwards, but not immediately, the key also gets removed from the ignition. Goku was able to somehow turn the key again, and turn the car back on, before the key got removed, due to his proficiency and advanced mastery of the art of ki control, fighting, transforming, etc.

The fact that it's godly and all of that makes me more willing to accept more absurd explanations like this. And sure, "how the hell did some random Saiyans accidentally make a legitimate god form that legitimately has godly ki?" gets asked a lot, but someone on the forums here put forth the idea that "six righteous ki signatures can together form a divine ki signature" which to me sounds interesting and neat, makes sense of the form's accidental origins, and is certainly not more absurd than some of the "laws" and "rules" that the series proper seems to establish.

[dbzfan7]

There's always the potential idea that he was able to run on the fumes of the transformation, so to speak. Like, the form primarily has a limit, but after it runs out there's still some traces of the ki of the form remaining. If the user is as proficient a ki user as Goku, he can latch on to the very last bit of fumes that remain within the user's body after the primary limit has run its course. The amount of fumes do not correlate with the strength of the transformation, only the duration.

Or for a different analogy, think of activating the transformation as turning a key to start a car. First, the key must be put into the ignition, and then it must be turned. Once the form runs out of time, the key is turned the other way and the car is turned off. Afterwards, but not immediately, the key also gets removed from the ignition. Goku was able to somehow turn the key again, and turn the car back on, before the key got removed, due to his proficiency and advanced mastery of the art of ki control, fighting, transforming, etc.

The fact that it's godly and all of that makes me more willing to accept more absurd explanations like this. And sure, "how the hell did some random Saiyans accidentally make a legitimate god form that legitimately has godly ki?" gets asked a lot, but someone on the forums here put forth the idea that "six righteous ki signatures can together form a divine ki signature" which to me sounds interesting and neat, makes sense of the form's accidental origins, and is certainly not more absurd than some of the "laws" and "rules" that the series proper seems to establish.

One of my problems is he does this without even trying to. Birus didn't really teach him how to keep the form either. Hopefully Choezenshu 4 will shed light on this.

[Zephyr]

One of my problems is he does this without even trying to. Birus didn't really teach him how to keep the form either. Hopefully Choezenshu 4 will shed light on this.

I don't take issue with the fact that he did it on accident. It's kind of in Goku's nature to be able to do things that he shouldn't be able to do, accidental or otherwise. I doubt he knew SSj3 was a thing before he discovered it, so he would have to have accidentally reached that form.

I know it not exactly the same thing, but it's still Goku accidentally doing things that utterly defy logic and reason.

[dbzfan7]

One of my problems is he does this without even trying to. Birus didn't really teach him how to keep the form either. Hopefully Choezenshu 4 will shed light on this.

I don't take issue with the fact that he did it on accident. It's kind of in Goku's nature to be able to do things that he shouldn't be able to do, accidental or otherwise. I doubt he knew SSj3 was a thing before he discovered it, so he would have to have accidentally reached that form.

I know it not exactly the same thing, but it's still Goku accidentally doing things that utterly defy logic and reason.

Well he tried to perform the Kamehameha and tried to ascend beyond SSJ and SSJ2. He didn't even try or even believe it was possible to extend the time limit.

[Zephyr]

Well he tried to perform the Kamehameha and tried to ascend beyond SSJ and SSJ2. He didn't even try or even believe it was possible to extend the time limit.

True he was intending to do the Kamehameha, but was it ever said that he was actually trying to find a plateau above SSj2? I always thought it was accepted as something he accidentally discovered.

[dbzfan7]

Well he tried to perform the Kamehameha and tried to ascend beyond SSJ and SSJ2. He didn't even try or even believe it was possible to extend the time limit.

True he was intending to do the Kamehameha, but was it ever said that he was actually trying to find a plateau above SSj2? I always thought it was accepted as something he accidentally discovered.

Could be. Could also be he thought the sky's the limit and tried to go even further then SSJ2. But we don't know for sure.

[Zephyr]

Another attempted explanation: He didn't need to consciously know to tap back into it, his body is so adapted to the intricacies of ki control, that it was able to detect and tap into the lingering essence on pure combat reflex alone.

Regardless though, even if Goku tapping back into the lingering essence of the form was purely accidental (on a conscious level at least), why is that problematic in the first place?

[dbzfan7]

Another attempted explanation: He didn't need to consciously know to tap back into it, his body is so adapted to the intricacies of ki control, that it was able to detect and tap into the lingering essence on pure combat reflex alone.

Regardless though, even if Goku tapping back into the lingering essence of the form was purely accidental (on a conscious level at least), why is that problematic in the first place?

Because it's totally ridiculous. Why bother have a time limit if it won't matter in the end. Maybe fusion can be held longer too if done just like this.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Your not even rationalizing. Your saying it's fiction so anything that doesn't make sense is perfectly fine. This is also an in-universe thread so you can't use "fiction" as an answer. You need an in-universe answer. Maybe you can rationalize it out of universe, but in-universe maybe you can't.

Yeah, because we don't need an answer. It's how it works. Super Saiyan has golden hair because that's how it works. Fusion merges two similar bodies with similar powers into one, adding existing clothes that the users don't even have to see, because that's how it works.

And as for Goku doing it accidentally, where is the issue? He accidentally transformed into a Super Saiyan, and he also accidentally transformed into a Super Saiyan 4. I don't see the issue when we don't have any information saying that the Super Saiyan God has to be aware of what he does to absorb the power.

Because it's totally ridiculous. Why bother have a time limit if it won't matter in the end. Maybe fusion can be held longer too if done just like this.

You missed the point. Goku managed to absorb the power because he is a fighting genius. The previous Super Saiyan God failed because he was weak. To me, it seems like Super Saiyan God has a time-limit, but only if someone is worthy keeps it. The previous one wasn't, while Goku was.

[dbzfan7]

Your not even rationalizing. Your saying it's fiction so anything that doesn't make sense is perfectly fine. This is also an in-universe thread so you can't use "fiction" as an answer. You need an in-universe answer. Maybe you can rationalize it out of universe, but in-universe maybe you can't.

Yeah, because we don't need an answer. It's how it works. Super Saiyan has golden hair because that's how it works. Fusion merges two similar bodies with similar powers into one, adding existing clothes that the users don't even have to see, because that's how it works.

And as for Goku doing it accidentally, where is the issue? He accidentally transformed into a Super Saiyan, and he also accidentally transformed into a Super Saiyan 4. I don't see the issue when we don't have any information saying that the Super Saiyan God has to be aware of what he does to absorb the power.

Because it's totally ridiculous. Why bother have a time limit if it won't matter in the end. Maybe fusion can be held longer too if done just like this.

You missed the point. Goku managed to absorb the power because he is a fighting genius. The previous Super Saiyan God failed because he was weak. To me, it seems like Super Saiyan God has a time-limit, but only if someone is worthy keeps it. The previous one wasn't, while Goku was.

This is the IN-UNIVERSE thread. Out of universe answers do not apply. You can call it fiction if you want but it's not a proper answer. SSJ has golden hair because it was a design choice and part of a transformation for Saiyans who are not human (or half human). Fusion adding clothes is pretty nonsensical but it was done as it was a metamorese technique. You need to answer this from an in-universe perspective. And so far you haven't. See how Zephyr at least tries to.

At least now your trying from an in universe perspective

I don't care how much of a genius you are, you can't do that without even noticing. It's a good theory that being a lot stronger than the last SSJ God could help. But this is a time limit. The ritual wears off. If SSJ God can magically overcome this then why can't fusion do the same.

[hleV]

I don't like calling bullshit whatever isn't the manga just because it isn't the manga. The manga has bullshit in it as well, yet everyone defends it.

I don't call it bullshit because it's not the manga. I call it bullshit because it is bullshit.

Except that it's a completely invalid comparison.

How so?

You don't get stronger real-time just for hitting and being hit. You get stronger for recovering the muscles/ki that you used for hitting and the injuries that you got from being hit.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Another attempted explanation: He didn't need to consciously know to tap back into it, his body is so adapted to the intricacies of ki control, that it was able to detect and tap into the lingering essence on pure combat reflex alone.

That's how I see it as well, more or less. Now I've cleared my mind about it, so here is my theory:

Everyone can become a Super Saiyan God (if he is a good person of course), but not everyone can keep that power, since the form has a time-limit. To keep the power of Super Saiyan God, one has to be worthy of such power: He must have reached his limits, he has to be a fighting genius, and he has to train while in he is a Super Saiyan God (and since the form itself doesn't last long, he needs to train under that time). Once he fits to the conditions, his body will automatically adapt to the power, which means that when he reverts to base, he will keep the majority of the power, and he will be able to bring out even more of the power as a Super Saiyan (there isn't anything beyond Super Saiyan anymore though). If the Saiyan wants to, he can transform into a Super Saiyan God again, and then revert to base, loosing all the power and returning to a mortal (it can also happen accidentally).

This happens because while it's easy to become a Super Saiyan God for a while, not everyone will be able to keep it. So, no Super Saiyan God army running around the galaxy.

I'll also throw my theory about why everyone (minus Pan) went Super Saiyan in the ritual:
Super Saiyan God requires the power of 6 righteous Saiyans, which means that they have to be at their most pure state (base form). However, Goku & Gohan are Super Saiyan Full Power (meaning that they don't loose their purity), and Vegeta, Goten, and Trunks are hinted in the manga to have also achieved the form. And since Super Saiyan 2 & Ultimate are impure forms/states, they chose to give as much power as possible in their most pure & powerful state (Super Saiyan form).

SSJ has golden hair because it was a design choice

Out-of-universe answer.

and part of a transformation for Saiyans who are not human (or half human).

Still doesn't make sense why it's golden and not, say, green.

I don't care how much of a genius you are, you can't do that without even noticing.

I am a genius, but why do you have this attitude now?

It's a good theory that being a lot stronger than the last SSJ God could help. But this is a time limit. The ritual wears off. If SSJ God can magically overcome this then why can't fusion do the same.

Because Fusion is not a godly technique. Super Saiyan God is a godly form though.

The previous Super Saiyan God was stated to be weaker than the evil Saiyans (in base), and the evil Saiyans were probably below 90.000 (the only known BP beyond Saiyan limits), so he was most likely a weakling that got lucky to have 5 good friends, who should be even weaker than him (since they chose to give him their power).
Goku, however, is not a weakling. He is trained by the mightiest martial artists on Earth (Son Gohan & Kame-sennin), and even by the gods & their attendants (Karin, Mr. Popo, Kami, Kaio), he has drunk the Super Sacred Water that brought out some of his dormant power, he managed to reach the top on Earth, then the top of the Saiyans, then the top of the universe. He is acknowledged to be a fighting genius by many, and he has proven that since he, a low-class warrior, surpassed Vegeta, a super-elite. He has managed to achieve all the Super Saiyan forms, and he is the only full-blooded Saiyan to have reached the final Super Saiyan form, Super Saiyan 3. He is a master of ki manipulation, and he has managed to master extremely difficult techniques, like the Kaio-ken, the Genki Dama, and the Shunkan Ido. He has pure heart, and he was even worthy to be asked to become the Kami of Earth by Kami himself. The only one that managed to surpass him in the end was Gohan, who surpassed him because Rou Kaioshin drew out his dormant power beyond its limits, and because as a Saiyan Halfling, he has much more dormant power than him. Every other person that surpassed him (like Gotenks, Boo, and Vegetto) are unnatural beings, except for Beers & Whis, who are gods.

I don't call it bullshit because it's not the manga. I call it bullshit because it is bullshit.

Yet you defend Fusion giving Gotenks the Metamoran clothes (random clothes that happened to be made by a random race that happened to discover Fusion, and clothes that Goten & Trunks never even imagined in their lives) as not being bullshit by coming up with various theories. For me, whatever can't be explained in my head, it's bullshit (like the ridiculous power statements/feats in the anime or the video games). What ever can be explained though is not (and believe me, I try to explain in my head whatever is possible). Wait, I just came up with an explanation for the Fusion clothes in my head, thanks to GT Gotenks in DBH! :Ρ

You give me that impression because you call whatever unexplained in BoG as bullshit without even trying to come up with a theory, yet you try to come up with theories about unexplained things in the manga.

[hleV]

and part of a transformation for Saiyans who are not human (or half human).

Still doesn't make sense why it's golden and not, say, green.

It's impossible to explain Saiyan physiology because we don't have the required information. However if humans can turn grey, there's really no big deal with Saiyans turning blonde, especially when it's a transformation. How many transformations have you seen in real life that you can label Saiyan transformation into blonde as nonsense? Or are you saying that transforming into blonde doesn't make sense even by DB standarts?

I don't call it bullshit because it's not the manga. I call it bullshit because it is bullshit.

Yet you defend Fusion giving Gotenks the Metamoran clothes (random clothes that happened to be made by a random race that happened to discover Fusion, and clothes that Goten & Trunks never even imagined in their lives) as not being bullshit by coming up with various theories. For me, whatever can't be explained in my head, it's bullshit (like the ridiculous power statements/feats in the anime or the video games). What ever can be explained though is not (and believe me, I try to explain in my head whatever is possible). Wait, I just came up with an explanation for the Fusion clothes in my head, thanks to GT Gotenks in DBH! :Ρ

What "various theories"? Metamorians created the Fusion Dance, not discovered it. If I created a game or a program, I would give it the look I see fit. Others would just launch it. Same goes to Goten & Trunks using a Metamorian-created technique. It really is very very simple, I honestly have no idea how you're having so much trouble with Metamorian clothes.

BOG doesn't make sense even by DB logic/standarts in a few instances, which is exactly my problem with it.