Is Goku a Bad Father?

[ABED]

Nope, he told Piccolo he couldn't defeat Fat Buu. It was only later that he said he lied.

He said he was lying but when does Goku lie about something like that. It was made up to cover a plot hole. When was the last time he did something like lie about being able to defeat someone?

It's almost like Goku's an asshole, right?

Not an explanation, since he never did anything like that that I can think of. He let Piccolo go, but he never lied about his reasons or about being stronger than him.

Don't worry Goku, it's totally fine to abandon your family, leaving them flat for two years, as long as you're learning more effective ways of beating people up. That doesn't make you a deadbeat dad or anything.

Goku's family wasn't flat. They had money and Gohan could get food. We must have different definitions of "totally abandon" because that's not what he did. He stayed on a planet TEMPORARILY to learn a valuable technique which got them out of quite a few binds by the way. He had every intention of coming back. There's nothing in Goku's character that would lead me to believe he wouldn't go back to his family immediately if they couldn't take care of themselves. He only stayed there long enough to learn one technique. That tells me that he missed home and his family so much that he would rather leave than learn everything he could.

That's only because Cell was being sadistic and pulling his punches to drag it out. If he wanted to, he could've just powered up to full and punch Gohan to death in seconds. The only thing that saved everyone is that Cell has Goku's cells, and so is also a stupid asshole.

He didn't even jump in to help his son when Cell was squeezing him to death.

First off, there's no telling how strong Gohan was in comparison to Cell. It could very well be the case that even in SS1, Gohan was stronger than Goku. Not one thing in any of those sentences proves Goku was a terrible father. Goku doesn't have the power to help Gohan. Gohan needed to be pushed. As hard as that may be to watch, Goku knew his son could survive Cell's attacks long enough to transform. The only thing he didn't think of is Gohan might get cold feet, which surprised me considering how much Gohan wanted to help since the Freeza saga. Hurting Gohan, but I don't think Gohan was in any danger of dying. Besides, what would've Goku jumping in done besides provide Gohan with temporary relief? Gohan was the only one who could win. What you are implying is Goku should've acted on emotion.

Gohan to one-shot Buu

Assuming Gohan was THAT much stronger than Kid Buu.

It only worked because of pure dumb luck and several contrived coincidences. Vegeta wasn't planning on any of them; if everything wasn't contrived to go exactly in the heroes' favor, it would've failed miserably.

It worked because of Vegeta remembered there was a final wish on the dragon balls. Is the luck of the heroes any more contrived than all the other stuff like Buu's transformations?

When I wrote Goku finds a way, I didn't mean by himself. He finds help or a last minute power boost. Goku's plans ultimately work, even if by sheer luck. As Roshi said after Tenshinhan won, luck is part of a martial artist's skill, or something along those lines. Goku may have needed help to defeat Vegeta, but in the end, they did. He got a last minute power up against Freeza, but he still won. His plan to defeat Cell worked, he defeated Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, and the Red Ribbon Army. He's proven that no matter what, if he says the enemy can be defeated, you can trust that he's right. Showing me Buu killing everyone does nothing to disuade me. There's always the Dragon Balls, even if they are on Namek. It's hard for me to care very much that Buu killed everyone when some set of Dragon Balls can bring people back to life.

I'm sure there will be another thread like this, but I don't have the energy to continue with anymore long posts on this subject, so let's shake hands.

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku didn't know Gohan was going to transform. He thought he was going to rage out at Cell like usual.

[RandomGuy96]

Nope, he told Piccolo he couldn't defeat Fat Buu. It was only later that he said he lied.

He said he was lying but when does Goku lie about something like that. It was made up to cover a plot hole. When was the last time he did something like lie about being able to defeat someone?

I don't think you understand: your opinion means nothing. Toriyama wrote that Goku could've beaten Fat Buu but couldn't to be part of his character. You want an example of him doing that? You've got one. The Buu Saga.

And there was no plothole to cover. The comment had literally no point other than to characterize Goku.

Goku's family wasn't flat. They had money and Gohan could get food. We must have different definitions of "totally abandon" because that's not what he did. He stayed on a planet TEMPORARILY to learn a valuable technique which got them out of quite a few binds by the way. He had every intention of coming back. There's nothing in Goku's character that would lead me to believe he wouldn't go back to his family immediately if they couldn't take care of themselves. He only stayed there long enough to learn one technique. That tells me that he missed home and his family so much that he would rather leave than learn everything he could.

Yes, he loved them and missed them so much that he abandoned them for two years. And yes, he only learned one technique, he didn't train or master a form or anything.

First off, there's no telling how strong Gohan was in comparison to Cell. It could very well be the case that even in SS1, Gohan was stronger than Goku

Uh yeah, that's stated. But I don't know what it has to do with anything.

Not one thing in any of those sentences proves Goku was a terrible father.

"Hey son, I'm going to send you off to fight this monster who ate an entire city worth of people and is too strong for me. Also, I'm not going to tell you about it and I'm going to go out of my way to make it harder for you by helping him. LOL".

Goku doesn't have the power to help Gohan

Actually, he does. He could've just eaten a senzu and teamed up with Gohan and the others on the fatigued Cell.

Gohan needed to be pushed.

No, he didn't. If Gohan, Goku and the others had ganged up on the fatigued Cell, everything would've gone easier.

As hard as that may be to watch, Goku knew his son could survive Cell's attacks long enough to transform.

No he didn't. His "oh shit" look when Cell powers up, even after he explicitly knew Gohan's SS power and was expecting him to make another big power up, coupled with his shock that SS2 Gohan murdered Cell easily, suggests two things:

1. He knew shit about Cell's full power.

2. Cell's full power is massively above anything displayed at that point.

And Goku's dumbass plan would've failed if Cell wasn't just as much of an idiot as Goku.

The only thing he didn't think of is Gohan might get cold feet, which surprised me considering how much Gohan wanted to help since the Freeza saga. Hurting Gohan, but I don't think Gohan was in any danger of dying.

Except he totally was. If Cell powers up, it's all over.

Besides, what would've Goku jumping in done besides provide Gohan with temporary relief? Gohan was the only one who could win. What you are implying is Goku should've acted on emotion.

He could've not given Cell a senzu. He could've eaten a senzu and done another Instant Kamehameha, then yell at Gohan to blow off his legs. He could've just kicked Cell off of Gohan (you don't need to be strong when you catch the enemy off guard). There's a thousand things he could've done.

Assuming Gohan was THAT much stronger than Kid Buu.

He was. This was stated in the manga and guidebooks.

It worked because of Vegeta remembered there was a final wish on the dragon balls. Is the luck of the heroes any more contrived than all the other stuff like Buu's transformations?

No, it worked because Pure Buu spit out Mister Buu. If he hadn't done that, everyone would die horribly.

When I wrote Goku finds a way, I didn't mean by himself. He finds help or a last minute power boost. Goku's plans ultimately work, even if by sheer luck. As Roshi said after Tenshinhan won, luck is part of a martial artist's skill, or something along those lines.

Contrived coincidences randomly going Goku's way say nothing about him being reliable. All it proves is that he has stupidly good luck.

Goku may have needed help to defeat Vegeta, but in the end, they did. He got a last minute power up against Freeza, but he still won. he defeated Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, and the Red Ribbon Army

These cases were different; he was the last line of defense. He had no choice. In the Majin Buu situation, he had three chances to beat Buu and save everyone a ton of trouble, but didn't.

He's proven that no matter what, if he says the enemy can be defeated, you can trust that he's right.

This again means nothing. His plans always fail and are saved by one last minute contrivance. In Cell's case, it was Cell being just as dumb as Goku. In Buu's, it was Mister Buu.

Showing me Buu killing everyone does nothing to disuade me. There's always the Dragon Balls, even if they are on Namek. It's hard for me to care very much that Buu killed everyone when some set of Dragon Balls can bring people back to life.

If Gotenks had a few less minutes in the ROSAT, he never would've gotten SS3 and Buu would've killed everyone. Goku specifically told Piccolo NOT to send the kids to the ROSAT. If it wasn't for Dende, Buutenks would've killed Gohan, and if it wasn't for Tien, Buutenks would've killed Dende and THEN Gohan, and his reversion back to Buuccolo wouldn't matter a bit because Goku couldn't do shit to him even in that form; cue universal destruction. So his 'plan' was a complete failure, and once again it was only a last minute contrivance on someone else's part that kept the villain from winning. Goku deserves no credit here, he did nothing but fuck things up and refuse to help when he could because "Naaaaaah, it's more to fight" or "I don't wanna defend Earth anymore".

[ABED]

Goku says he could defeat Buu AFTER he told Piccolo that he couldn't. Why would he lie? I know Goku and the rest of the Z Team didn't go with Bulma's plan because they wanted someone to fight, but Goku was going to be there to fight them, and he let Vegeta live so he could fight him later. However, he never let an enemy get out unless he intended to fight or thought he could win. What reason would he have of letting Buu out of his egg if he wasn't going to clean up the mess? What about Goku would lead you to think he would do that? Has he ever done that? No, he only ever let them free when HE wanted to fight them. Toriyama made huge leaps in logic because he didn't plan his story.

As for Cell, Goku wasn't lucky, he knew Cell wanted to test his powers. And Gohan could've still been teleported to fight Buu had Goku failed.

Your whole argument assumes Goku gives a shit about no one and nothing, despite the overwhelming evidence that he loves his home and his friends.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku says he could defeat Buu AFTER he told Piccolo that he couldn't. Why would he lie? I know Goku and the rest of the Z Team didn't go with Bulma's plan because they wanted someone to fight, but Goku was going to be there to fight them, and he let Vegeta live so he could fight him later. However, he never let an enemy get out unless he intended to fight or thought he could win. What reason would he have of letting Buu out of his egg if he wasn't going to clean up the mess? What about Goku would lead you to think he would do that? Has he ever done that? No, he only ever let them free when HE wanted to fight them. Toriyama made huge leaps in logic because he didn't plan his story.

Again: your opinion means nothing. There was no need to insert that line to do anything other than characterize Goku. None.

Why did he do that? Because he didn't want to defend Earth anymore. He wanted his children to do it. He says as much himself.

And him sparing Vegeta and Piccolo is even worse than sparing Buu. At least he had the Buu situation under control until Super showed up. With Piccolo and Vegeta, he was one mistake away from death, and if they fought again he very easily could've lost, resulting in everyone dying horribly because Goku just loooooves to fight. He was also facing opponents who can simply get bored and annihilate all life on Earth with a finger beam if they want. Not a good idea to let them go.

And Gohan could've still been teleported to fight Buu had Goku failed.

How? Kibitoshin had no ki left because he wasted it all on Vegeta's dumbass plan. Boom, there goes the universe.

Your whole argument assumes Goku gives a shit about no one and nothing, despite the overwhelming evidence that he loves his home and his friends.

No, I'm simply pointing out that Goku acts like a stupid asshole all the time. It's not an argument and doesn't ignore anything. But I don't think he truly loves his children, at least not more than he likes to have fun by fighting. Fighting and improving comes first for Goku, at the cost of everything else.

[Jackal puFF]

He's always busy trying to protect his sons from dying if that counts.

[ABED]

Again: your opinion means nothing. There was no need to insert that line to do anything other than characterize Goku. None.

Why did he do that? Because he didn't want to defend Earth anymore. He wanted his children to do it. He says as much himself.

How does Goku lying characterize him? It does nothing other than characterize him as a liar, which he isn't. It's out of character. You can stop saying "your opinion means nothing," it's rude, and not true. Toriyama backtracks, he did say Goku wanted his children to save the world, but he also said that he couldn't defeat Buu. He said that to Piccolo. ANd it wasn't that he didn't want to defend the Earth, he felt the living should take care of their own world.

There's the Dragon Balls which could've returned his power, plus Dende or some other Namekian was there.

Fighting and improving comes first for Goku, at the cost of everything else.

Nope, it does come first but not at the cost of everything.

ith Piccolo and Vegeta, he was one mistake away from death, and if they fought again he very easily could've lost, resulting in everyone dying horribly because Goku just loooooves to fight. He was also facing opponents who can simply get bored and annihilate all life on Earth with a finger beam if they want. Not a good idea to let them go.
There you go thinking Goku's so terrible despite contrary evidence. Goku let Piccolo go, but he was stronger than him. It wasn't luck that he won. Even at the end, he was confident he could win the fight. As for Vegeta, Vegeta was in bad shape as well. He planned to train and get stronger, which he did. He knew Vegeta's strenght, and was confident he could get stronger than that. Neither Piccolo nor Vegeta could destroy the planet unless they were willing to die themselves. Vegeta did get to that point but that was only in the heat of the battle and Goku was going to get stronger than him, so that isn't as big an issue.

[RandomGuy96]

How does Goku lying characterize him? You can stop saying "your opinion means nothing" it's rude, and not true. Toriyama backtracks, he did say Goku wanted his children to save the world, but he also said that he couldn't defeat Buu.

It characterizes him as someone that doesn't want to defend Earth anymore and wants to leave it to something else. That's literally the only purpose it serves, since there was no plothole to retcon. It's part of Goku's character, and can't simply be ignored because it happened later in the story- if anything that should make it more valid.

He says he wanted his children to save the world in the same sentence he says he could beat Buu. And that wasn't the first time he said he could beat Fatty either, he said it earlier in Super Buu's body too.

[ABED]

How does Goku lying characterize him? You can stop saying "your opinion means nothing" it's rude, and not true. Toriyama backtracks, he did say Goku wanted his children to save the world, but he also said that he couldn't defeat Buu.

It characterizes him as someone that doesn't want to defend Earth anymore and wants to leave it to something else. That's literally the only purpose it serves, since there was no plothole to retcon. It's part of Goku's character, and can't simply be ignored because it happened later in the story- if anything that should make it more valid.

He says he wanted his children to save the world in the same sentence he says he could beat Buu. And that wasn't the first time he said he could beat Fatty either, he said it earlier in Super Buu's body too.

Something else being "the living". Now you make it sound like laziness.
No, he tells Piccolo he COULDN'T defeat Buu.

[RandomGuy96]

Something else being "the living".
No, he tells Piccolo he COULDN'T defeat Buu.

I'm not sure why either of these things matter. And he says before that point that he could defeat Fat Buu without the use of fusion.

[ABED]

Something else being "the living".
No, he tells Piccolo he COULDN'T defeat Buu.

I'm not sure why either of these things matter. And he says before that point that he could defeat Fat Buu without the use of fusion.

It matters because it makes it a retcon that he could defeat Buu.

The first thing I mentioned is because Goku wasn't leaving it to his son and Trunks out of laziness and not wanting to defend Earth. He thought the living world should depend on its own instead of depending on someone who can't always be there. His heart is in the right place, even if he's dangerously naive in this specific case.

[RandomGuy96]

No, it doesn't. Whether it's a retcon or not, it's part of his character, and it served no purpose other than characterizing him.

[ABED]

No, it doesn't. Whether it's a retcon or not, it's part of his character, and it served no purpose other than characterizing him.

As a liar?

There's little reason to suspect Goku was lying in that moment. I think Toriyama wrote it with the assumption that Goku couldn't in fact win.

[RandomGuy96]

Both as a liar and as someone who wanted his sons to defend the Earth, not him.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter anyway, since we know that he could.

[ABED]

Both as a liar and as someone who wanted his sons to defend the Earth, not him.

When has Goku lied about not being able to defeat someone?

[RandomGuy96]

Both as a liar and as someone who wanted his sons to defend the Earth, not him.

When has Goku lied about not being able to defeat someone?

Why does it matter?

[ABED]

Both as a liar and as someone who wanted his sons to defend the Earth, not him.

When has Goku lied about not being able to defeat someone?

Why does it matter?

It matters because if he lied that one time, that's out of character.

[RandomGuy96]

Nope, it's in-character, as the Buu Saga established the character. We've never seen Goku in this exact situation before. The closest was at the Cell Games, where he sent his son off to fight Cell without any preparation and then helped Cell, then did nothing as his son was being beaten to death.

[ABED]

Nope, it's in-character, as the Buu Saga established the character. We've never seen Goku in this exact situation before.

No, it's out of character for him to lie. The character was well established as being honest, so what about this situation required him to lie? What did he gain?

Your closest parallel didn't have Goku lying. He didn't tell Gohan his plan, admittedly a bad idea, and Gohan wasn't being beaten to death.

[RandomGuy96]

He gained an achievement for the son he just met and a protector of Earth while he's gone. And like I said, given the choice between finishing off a villain himself when he could (or so he thought) and throwing his son out to the wolves without any prep for little gain, he chose to send his son. So it's completely in-character going by the only ever time he was in a situation like this. Hell, at least in the Buu Saga he didn't help Buu before sending Gotenks off.

It doesn't matter whether Goku lied or not. Obscuring important information is basically the same thing as lying anyway. He was, Cell was just being sadistic by pulling his punches and bear hugging him. He could've killed him if he went all out.