Je je je you have to admit you don´t like Goku!! I´m fine with that!!RandomGuy96 wrote:Lolwut?For what? To see Ultimate Gohan being killed by one single punch?
I was half joking; the addition of Goku's power would have basically no effect on Super Buu, who is already tens of times Goku's superior. Or, more likely, thousands of times stronger.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I'm just spitballing but I think that would be only temporarily. Goku is a special breed of cat and I don't think there's an opponent he can't surpass given some time. Goku is so driven to be the best that he's willing to do training that very few would be able to do, and he has a head for battle that I don't think anyone can match.The Saiyan & Freeza arcs showed us that if Gohan had taken advantage of his hidden power, he had potential to surpass even Goku. Cell arc proved this correct.
That´s not a fact, not stated and not implied; especially the part that you say " Oob most likely surpassed Goku " is totally wrong! Is quite conceivable that Goku becomes much much stronger after training with Oob and way way stronger even than Ultimate Gohan. Don´t get me wrong, I just disagree with you!!DBZGTKOSDH wrote: At least in the end Gohan & Gotenks remain stronger than Goku, and Oob most likely surpassed Goku as well after their training.
I don't know what that has to do with anything.Je je je you have to admit you don´t like Goku!! I´m fine with that!!
Goku did seven years of non-stop hardcore Otherworld training and it probably didn't even double his strength. Given that Toriyama said that Goku a few years after the Buu Saga is the strongest incarnation of the character, and that age was catching up to him by the EoZ, there's no way he ever got close to Gotenks and Gohan.That´s not a fact, not stated and not implied; especially the part that you say " Oob most likely surpassed Goku " is totally wrong! Is quite conceivable that Goku becomes much much stronger after training with Oob and way way stronger even than Ultimate Gohan. Don´t get me wrong, I just disagree with you!!
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
It is implied in the series that Goku can't make significant gains anymore like he did in the past, as I said before.MDSTSSJ wrote:That´s not a fact, not stated and not implied; especially the part that you say " Oob most likely surpassed Goku " is totally wrong! Is quite conceivable that Goku becomes much much stronger after training with Oob and way way stronger even than Ultimate Gohan. Don´t get me wrong, I just disagree with you!!
Goku is special, but Gohan is even more special.ABED wrote:I'm just spitballing but I think that would be only temporarily. Goku is a special breed of cat and I don't think there's an opponent he can't surpass given some time. Goku is so driven to be the best that he's willing to do training that very few would be able to do, and he has a head for battle that I don't think anyone can match.
Goku never showed them SS3 in the manga. In fact, the kids were surprised that there was something beyond Super Saiyan, which means they discovered Super Saiyan 3 entirely by themselves. Even though the kids are stupid, they are fighting geniuses as well, bigger than Goku & Vegeta.ABED wrote:Gotenks became SS3 faster than Goku but they needed Goku to show them that level.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
To that, I point to Super Saiyan 3! The kids saw him as Super Saiyan 3 when Babidi was broadcasting his fight with Buu in everyone's minds.Goku said before the Cell Games that he had reached his limits
Percentage wise, but not in terms of absolute power.while after 1 year training with Kaio in the past made him 20 times stronger.
Super Saiyan 3 is a form that Gohan hadn't achieved. If Gohan was a Super Saiyan 3 at the Cell Games, SS3 Goku would be slightly stronger than him.ABED wrote:To that, I point to Super Saiyan 3!
Oops... we have a plot-hole here then! If Goten & Trunks have already seen Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3, they shouldn't be surprised when they achieved it by themselves:ABED wrote:The kids saw him as Super Saiyan 3 when Babidi was broadcasting his fight with Buu in everyone's minds.
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of [Boo]!”
No, Goku literally got 20 times stronger back then. He jumped from over 400 to over 8.000 after one year of training with Kaio.ABED wrote:Percentage wise, but not in terms of absolute power.
But he is stated to be more special. His dormant power is much greater than Goku's, which means that once they both reach their limits, Gohan will always be stronger.ABED wrote:And no, I don't think Gohan is more special than Goku. He relies too heavily on luck than skill and hard work.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Gohan only relies on his dormant power, he has very few skills beyond that, and Goku always surpasses his limits.But he is stated to be more special. His dormant power is much greater than Goku's, which means that once they both reach their limits, Gohan will always be stronger.
How do you figure?Even though the kids are stupid, they are fighting geniuses as well, bigger than Goku & Vegeta.
Gohan never tried to achieve Super Saiyan 2, not to mention Super Saiyan 3, which is much harder to achieve. And I'm not comparing forms, I'm comparing power.ABED wrote:Gohan didn't reach it, that's the point. He didn't put in the required training.
But still, the kids managed to achieve the form after a week, while it took him years to achieve it. It took Vegeta 3 years to turn Super Saiyan after he saw SS Goku, and it took Gohan 4 years to do it as well. Goten & Trunks though turned into Super Saiyan much easier than them.That's not a plot hole, it's a statement of surprise because it's still a new form to them, and hard for those kids to fathom what they assumed was the heighth of power.
This isn't how power gains work, based on what we've seen.No, I mean Goku's power did increase several times over back in the Saiyan arc, but in terms of absolute power, his power increased far more in the Buu arc. I realize I could've been clearer.
Here's the math:
10,000 is 100 times greater than 100.
2 million is only twice as big as 1 million, but 1,000,000 is greater than 9,900.
Of course, Goku is a bigger fighting genius after all. But Gohan is just too strong.Gohan only relies on his dormant power, he has very few skills beyond that
The only time that Goku said that he reached his limits was at the Cell Games, and after that, I didn't see any other huge increase (except for SS2 & SS3).Goku always surpasses his limits.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
What? That wasn't what I was talking about. I was referring to the amount of the gain. I was proving that although Goku didn't gain as much power percentage wise as he did when training with Kaio, he gained more in terms of absolute power.This isn't how power gains work, based on what we've seen.
Not really, Goku and even Vegeta surpass him. The only reason Gohan surpasses Goku after that is Kaioshin's power up, which Goku never got. It was only because of Goku's training that Gohan was able to reach SS2. Remember when Goku told Gohan that they would make Super Saiyan their primary form? Had Goku not thought of that, it's doubtful Gohan would've reached the level he did.Of course, Goku is a bigger fighting genius after all. But Gohan is just too strong.
Those are pretty gigantic increases.I didn't see any other huge increase (except for SS2 & SS3).
Goku theorized that Super Saiyan 3 was possible, while Goten & Trunks/Gotenks knew that Super Saiyan 3 was possible. They both tried to achieve it, and Goku only managed to achieve it after years, while Gotenk made it after a week.ABED wrote:Goku essentially gained new knowledge. Gotenks was building off his achievement. No one had even thought Super Saiyan 3 was a possibility, not even Vegeta.
But by getting such increases, he will only surpass Gohan after a hundred years.What? That wasn't what I was talking about. I was referring to the amount of the gain. I was proving that although Goku didn't gain as much power percentage wise as he did when training with Kaio, he gained more in terms of absolute power.
That's my point. Ultimate Gohan is too strong for Goku or Vegeta to reach. Even if Goku or Vegeta had gotten Kaioshin's power-up, Gohan would still be stronger than Goku & Vegeta, because as a Saiyan Halfling, he is born with a much greater dormant power.Not really, Goku and even Vegeta surpass him. The only reason Gohan surpasses Goku after that is Kaioshin's power up, which Goku never got.
Of course. Goku is a greater fighting genius than Gohan. Gohan only surpasses Goku with his dormant power.It was only because of Goku's training that Gohan was able to reach SS2. Remember when Goku told Gohan that they would make Super Saiyan their primary form? Had Goku not thought of that, it's doubtful Gohan would've reached the level he did.
But they are not increases through training gains, they are increases through dormant power.Those are pretty gigantic increases.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
In time they can reach it because they are more natural fighters and will put themselves through incredibly harsh training that Gohan isn't willing to do. Their drive leads them to levels not thought possible.That's my point. Ultimate Gohan is too strong for Goku or Vegeta to reach. Even if Goku or Vegeta had gotten Kaioshin's power-up, Gohan would still be stronger than Goku & Vegeta, because as a Saiyan Halfling, he is born with a much greater dormant power.
In the long run, it's not enough. After SS2, Gohan has no more dormant power. Kaioshin drew his power out PAST his limits.Of course. Goku is a greater fighting genius than Gohan. Gohan only surpasses Goku with his dormant power.
Nope, they are through training. Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 and 3 by training themselves. As long as someone has Saiyan blood, they can reach those levels if they can push themselves to those levels.But they are not increases through training gains, they are increases through dormant power.
Says who? He still had room to train, and also to achieve Super Saiyan 3.ABED wrote:In the long run, it's not enough. After SS2, Gohan has no more dormant power.
You don't understand. Goku didn't became 4 times stronger because he trained, it was because he trained & managed to unlock more of his dormant power through Super Saiyan 3. Goku's main gains during the time-skip were his new transformations. In base, he is still not far from angry base Gohan.Nope, they are through training. Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 and 3 by training themselves. As long as someone has Saiyan blood, they can reach those levels if they can push themselves to those levels.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
The point Toriyama was getting at was Gohan finally accessed all of his dormant power. It would be cheesy if after SS2 and The Grand Elder's power up that Gohan still has some hidden power that someone missed, any gains he makes would be due to hard work.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Says who? He still had room to train, and also to achieve Super Saiyan 3.ABED wrote:In the long run, it's not enough. After SS2, Gohan has no more dormant power.
You don't understand. Goku didn't became 4 times stronger because he trained, it was because he trained & managed to unlock more of his dormant power through Super Saiyan 3. Goku's main gains during the time-skip were his new transformations. In base, he is still not far from angry base Gohan.Nope, they are through training. Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 and 3 by training themselves. As long as someone has Saiyan blood, they can reach those levels if they can push themselves to those levels.
I never loved Gohan even in the Cell arc because in the end he still got his dad killed and needed to be coached through overpowering his opponent who he was already more powerful than...and then he slacked off... 
The boys and Gohan have already shown far more potential then Goku and Vegeta. They only lack a drive which balances out how overpowered they would be if they did have the same drive. If they all trained like Goku, then he would be out of business real fast. SSJ2 is not Gohan's full hidden powers.ABED wrote:The point Toriyama was getting at was Gohan finally accessed all of his dormant power. It would be cheesy if after SS2 and The Grand Elder's power up that Gohan still has some hidden power that someone missed, any gains he makes would be due to hard work.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Says who? He still had room to train, and also to achieve Super Saiyan 3.ABED wrote:In the long run, it's not enough. After SS2, Gohan has no more dormant power.
You don't understand. Goku didn't became 4 times stronger because he trained, it was because he trained & managed to unlock more of his dormant power through Super Saiyan 3. Goku's main gains during the time-skip were his new transformations. In base, he is still not far from angry base Gohan.Nope, they are through training. Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 and 3 by training themselves. As long as someone has Saiyan blood, they can reach those levels if they can push themselves to those levels.
Pure power is proven to be useless if you don't know how to weild it. Goku is a natural and a far harder worker, in time, Goku can defeat anyone. He's proven it over and over again, and time and time again, Gohan has proven he's not motivated to train as much as his father.
