Broly the strongest until Janemba?

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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:13 pm

Goku even considered Gohan for Fusion.
Wasn't Gohan Mystic.....
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:16 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:SS2 Gohan was considered "pathetic" by pre-Majin Vegeta, who explicitly said that the gap between him and Goku was the same as it was at the Cell Games. So the difference between Gohan and Majin Vegeta/Goku was extremely significant.
Vegeta is just acting like Vegeta. I'm sure the difference is significant, but not extremely significant, since Dabra & Kaioshin treat Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan like they are in the same category, and Goku even considered Gohan for Fusion. LSS Broli however seems to be much stronger than SS2 Gohan, to the point that Gohan was almost beaten by him in a minute, and Gohan's hits also barely made Broli move.

In other words, LSS Broli's & SS2 Gohan's gap in power seems to be much greater than the gap between the SS2 Goku & SS2 Gohan.
Dabra and Kaioshin are idiots, and we don't know how close you have to be in power exactly for fusion to work. We DO know that Goku can simply suppress himself to fuse with Gohan.

I disagree. If that was a Majin Vegeta-level opponent fighting Broly, I don't think that he would've moved/been stunned in pain by any of Gohan's blows, or be unable to catch him in that lava sequence, or that it would've taken more than three hits to beat him.
Wasn't Gohan Mystic.....
This was way before that, when Goku was lamenting that Gohan and Vegeta aren't around to fight fatso anymore. Piccolo says it wouldn't have made much of a difference, but Goku says that the wasn't talking about fighting together, but about fusion. I personally doubt that he was actually serious; it seemed pretty obvious that Goku was just finding a way to bring up fusion for the kids, which was the plan all along.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:24 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Goku even considered Gohan for Fusion.
Wasn't Gohan Mystic.....
Ultimate is a separate state from base.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Dabra and Kaioshin are idiots
Dabra seemed to sense their full power even though they were suppressed, and considered those 3 to have marvelous energy, while Piccolo & Kuririn were trash. He didn't say anything like "these 3 have marvelous energy, especially the 2 of them". Kaioshin also said that the 3 Saiyans were amazing, again, not saying anything like "especially Goku & Vegeta". So, they are in the same tier, but with Majin Vegeta = SS2 Goku > Raged SS2 Gohan > SS2 Vegeta > SS2 Gohan.
RandomGuy96 wrote:we don't know how close you have to be in power exactly for fusion to work. We DO know that Goku can simply suppress himself to fuse with Gohan.
All we know is that the powers have to be similar. LSS Broli & SS2 Gohan definitely don't have similar powers.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:38 pm

Ultimate is a separate state from base.
But Gohan was mystic at the time and Goku used Potara..............
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:56 pm

All we know is that the powers have to be similar. LSS Broli & SS2 Gohan definitely don't have similar powers.
Subjective. It's never elaborated upon on what "similar" means, but considering the massive gap between Goku/Vegeta and Vegeta/Gohan, I think we can conclude that there can be a pretty wide gap where powers are still considered "similar".
Dabra seemed to sense their full power even though they were suppressed, and considered those 3 to have marvelous energy, while Piccolo & Kuririn were trash. He didn't say anything like "these 3 have marvelous energy, especially the 2 of them". Kaioshin also said that the 3 Saiyans were amazing, again, not saying anything like "especially Goku & Vegeta". So, they are in the same tier, but with Majin Vegeta = SS2 Goku > Raged SS2 Gohan > SS2 Vegeta > SS2 Gohan.
No, he didn't. He knew absolutely nothing of their power, as evidenced by the fact that he thought he could take all three at once.

Also, of course he wouldn't say "especially the two of them"; if anything, he'd just say "especially that one", since Goku was far stronger than the other two. And if he was somehow sensing their full power, he should also be able to tell that Goku's stronger than Buu, buuuuut....
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:15 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Ultimate is a separate state from base.
But Gohan was mystic at the time and Goku used Potara..............
Did he magically lost the ability to power down?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Subjective. It's never elaborated upon on what "similar" means, but considering the massive gap between Goku/Vegeta and Vegeta/Gohan, I think we can conclude that there can be a pretty wide gap where powers are still considered "similar".
I still don't see how Goku's & Gohan's gaps are considered massive. Vegeta considers Gohan pathetic because not only he is weaker than him, but also because he shouldn't be that weak, and he shouldn't skip his training.

RandomGuy96 wrote:No, he didn't. He knew absolutely nothing of their power, as evidenced by the fact that he thought he could take all three at once.
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Of course, Dabra underestimated them, but that doesn't mean that he got wrong how the 3 Saiyans compare to each other.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:31 pm

Gohan isn't THAT much weaker than Goku and Vegeta.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:34 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Gohan isn't THAT much weaker than Goku and Vegeta.
Weak enough to tell a noticeable difference. Since Goku is barely stronger than Kid Gohan IMO and Goten eing at least close to Gohan's power. Gohan should be around Cell games Goku which is 2x - 3x weaker than Cell games Gohan. So the difference is kinda big
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:56 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Gohan should be around Cell games Goku which is 2x - 3x weaker than Cell games Gohan. So the difference is kinda big
And you got the 2x-3x difference from...?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:05 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Gohan should be around Cell games Goku which is 2x - 3x weaker than Cell games Gohan. So the difference is kinda big
And you got the 2x-3x difference from...?
It's an inference not a fact. Well Gohan thought Goku full power was holding back. If Gohan 1.5x stronger he should have been impressed a little. But Gohan just was like. "So...when is dad going to fight seriously?" So 2x - 3x. Should be big enough.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:23 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:It's an inference not a fact. Well Gohan thought Goku full power was holding back. If Gohan 1.5x stronger he should have been impressed a little. But Gohan just was like. "So...when is dad going to fight seriously?" So 2x - 3x. Should be big enough.
The reason that Gohan wasn't impressed was because he thought that Goku was much stronger than him, while in fact, he was below him.
And let's not forget that one doesn't have to be times stronger than someone to be significant stronger. Vegeta was at 24.000, and he was much stronger than Dodoria, who was at 22.000.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:25 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:It's an inference not a fact. Well Gohan thought Goku full power was holding back. If Gohan 1.5x stronger he should have been impressed a little. But Gohan just was like. "So...when is dad going to fight seriously?" So 2x - 3x. Should be big enough.
The reason that Gohan wasn't impressed was because he thought that Goku was much stronger than him, while in fact, he was below him.
And let's not forget that one doesn't have to be times stronger than someone to be significant stronger. Vegeta was at 24.000, and he was much stronger than Dodoria, who was at 22.000.
I know that. But even if he thought Goku was suppose to be stronger. Had Gohan been at least 1.5x stronger he should had been impressed even a little.
Power scaling changes with each Arc.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:29 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:I know that. But even if he thought Goku was suppose to be stronger. Had Gohan been at least 1.5x stronger he should had been impressed even a little.
No, he shouldn't be impressed at all. Even if Goku was exactly as strong as Gohan, Gohan shouldn't be impressed at all, because he was expecting him to be stronger.
TheGmGoken wrote:Power scaling changes with each Arc.
What?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:31 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:I know that. But even if he thought Goku was suppose to be stronger. Had Gohan been at least 1.5x stronger he should had been impressed even a little.
No, he shouldn't be impressed at all. Even if Goku was exactly as strong as Gohan, Gohan shouldn't be impressed at all, because he was expecting him to be stronger.
TheGmGoken wrote:Power scaling changes with each Arc.
What?

First quote: If Goku was exactly the same power as Gohan. Gohan would be right that Goku is stronger. Exact power meaning Gohan would be impress. As they would be equal. The events leading up to Cell games would alter SLIGHTLY

2nd quote: Power scaling changes with Each Arc. Saiyan Arc was differ from Namek arcs which was differ from Cell Arc and so on.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:37 pm

Gohan wouldn't be impressed, because Goku would be much weaker than he was expecting him.

And power scaling never changed, it was always higher battle power = win, except of teamwork & high amplification techniques were in the mix.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:38 pm

I'd say Kid Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Goku. There should be a difference but I don't think it was gigantic.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:40 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gohan wouldn't be impressed, because Goku would be much weaker than he was expecting him.

And power scaling never changed, it was always higher battle power = win, except of teamwork & high amplification techniques were in the mix.
1. Gohan would be impressed. It would be harder to see him and when Goku was powering up Gohan would had felt it.

2. Seems you're not understanding. Of course always the high power wins. I'm saying power SCALING changes with each arc.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:41 pm

I don't understand your logic in the first one. As for the second one, can you explain me why?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:45 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I don't understand your logic in the first one. As for the second one, can you explain me why?
2. Okay in Saiyan Arc. A small gap can mean a good fight. Seeing as how good Krillin did against Nappa. Namek Arc. A small gap means you will be DESTROYED. Cell Arc. Small gaps can lead into even battles but with one fighter having a slight lead. Boo Arc. The power levels are all over the place
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Re: Broly the strongest until Janemba?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:46 pm

I have the 3 here:
Goku: 80,000,000
Vegeta: 64,000,000(80,000,000)
Gohan: 56,000,000
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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