In defense of the Faulconer score

[eledoremassis02]

Just found this. Pretty cool re-orchestration of Faulconers music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqco9n11NCs

[saiyanprimalforce]

I used to be the "Kikuchi and japanese cast are the only real dragonball" kind of guy in the corner of the room, but over the last few years my opinion has transitioned in the complete opposite direction. I think Dragonball is just one of those things that doesn't have one true, definitive "version--outside the original manga, of course. The story is so universal, transcends cultural boundaries, and has been popular pretty much wherever it's tried, no matter the differences in the dubbing, score, censorship, or the "artistic license" Funimation notoriously crippled the original series with back in the day.

But anyways, I suppose the point I'm getting to is I think the Faulconer music, not arrangement, is just as legit as anything Kikuchi or Yamamoto have done from a music composition standpoint. As Captian Sora mentioned, the Faulconer Prod's music greatest asset/benefit is it's development of themes/motifs that really fit the characters surprisingly well(the majority of Scott and Mike's contributions specficially). The actual arrangement in the show is what I think makes a lot of the original anime fans snub their noses at it with contempt, and I can't say I really disagree. Even as a kid while I watched the 3rd and 4th season dbz runs on Toonami, I never liked the consantly-on, comedic pandering, never allowing much of anything to breath style that Funimation imposed, but it's been rather neat to learn that imposed is really an accurate word given the information Soctt and others have shared. And even as the hardcore Kikuchi-only fan I was over the years, I still found myself listening to some of the cd tracks on my mp3 player(no ipod then!). I think Scott's pretty much done a great job of explaining the flaws with the score in the series itself, so I'll just say I think it's a pretty big shame Funimation just didn't let them do a more proper job, and concentrate on quality over quanitity. That way, the one thing everyone could have complained about back in the day would've been the crappy dub(for the most part, anyway).


My own little experiment with scoring Parts 5-8 of Kai with Faulconer have far exceeded my original expectations, and really helped me to apperciate the contributions Mike and Scott have made to dragonball musically far more than I ever did(or thought I would!). But I guess it's not too surprising given it was a chance to cut the fat and filler out the score(just like Kai!), and allow for some breathing room with moments of *gasp* silence!. But what a world of difference it makes. Is the Faulconer Prod's score perfect? No--but it doesn't mean it still can't be vastly enjoyable experience, and thought fondly of as apart of Dragonball's musical heritage. If there's one thing Kai taught, it's that no matter the music, placement is nearly everything. Faulconer Z and Kikuchi Kai stand as my evidence for that sentiment(and defense of the Faulconer muisc!)

FP6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efjKK0-_98o

FP7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXU7-WjrP-k

And funny enough that you mentioned Batman, Scott--I think of the original Z dub the same way I do 60's Batman. It's not my Batman, to be sure. . .but there's something charming and enjoyable about it's awfulness, more or less because it's not the only dub in town anymore. Like how fun it is to watch Batman and Robin, now that the world has The Dark Knight And Rises to balance the Bat scale.

[90sDBZ]

I used to be the "Kikuchi and japanese cast are the only real dragonball" kind of guy in the corner of the room, but over the last few years my opinion has transitioned in the complete opposite direction. I think Dragonball is just one of those things that doesn't have one true, definitive "version--outside the original manga, of course. The story is so universal, transcends cultural boundaries, and has been popular pretty much wherever it's tried, no matter the differences in the dubbing, score, censorship, or the "artistic license" Funimation notoriously crippled the original series with back in the day.

But anyways, I suppose the point I'm getting to is I think the Faulconer music, not arrangement, is just as legit as anything Kikuchi or Yamamoto have done from a music composition standpoint. As Captian Sora mentioned, the Faulconer Prod's music greatest asset/benefit is it's development of themes/motifs that really fit the characters surprisingly well(the majority of Scott and Mike's contributions specficially). The actual arrangement in the show is what I think makes a lot of the original anime fans snub their noses at it with contempt, and I can't say I really disagree. Even as a kid while I watched the 3rd and 4th season dbz runs on Toonami, I never liked the consantly-on, comedic pandering, never allowing much of anything to breath style that Funimation imposed, but it's been rather neat to learn that imposed is really an accurate word given the information Soctt and others have shared. And even as the hardcore Kikuchi-only fan I was over the years, I still found myself listening to some of the cd tracks on my mp3 player(no ipod then!). I think Scott's pretty much done a great job of explaining the flaws with the score in the series itself, so I'll just say I think it's a pretty big shame Funimation just didn't let them do a more proper job, and concentrate on quality over quanitity. That way, the one thing everyone could have complained about back in the day would've been the crappy dub(for the most part, anyway).


My own little experiment with scoring Parts 5-8 of Kai with Faulconer have far exceeded my original expectations, and really helped me to apperciate the contributions Mike and Scott have made to dragonball musically far more than I ever did(or thought I would!). But I guess it's not too surprising given it was a chance to cut the fat and filler out the score(just like Kai!), and allow for some breathing room with moments of *gasp* silence!. But what a world of difference it makes. Is the Faulconer Prod's score perfect? No--but it doesn't mean it still can't be vastly enjoyable experience, and thought fondly of as apart of Dragonball's musical heritage. If there's one thing Kai taught, it's that no matter the music, placement is nearly everything. Faulconer Z and Kikuchi Kai stand as my evidence for that sentiment(and defense of the Faulconer muisc!)

FP6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efjKK0-_98o

FP7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXU7-WjrP-k

And funny enough that you mentioned Batman, Scott--I think of the original Z dub the same way I do 60's Batman. It's not my Batman, to be sure. . .but there's something charming and enjoyable about it's awfulness, more or less because it's not the only dub in town anymore. Like how fun it is to watch Batman and Robin, now that the world has The Dark Knight And Rises to balance the Bat scale.

A very good and fair analysis of the Team Faulconer score. It's good to hear that someone has gained more of an appreciation for it.

I'm sure we can all agree that the wall-to-wall music was a major flaw in the score. From what I've read on this topic I think it's clear that Funi were the ones to blame for that issue. One thing I find interesting that nobody seems to mention is that the Shuki Levy music was also constant most of the time, although it did have some silent moments. Could it be possible that Levy's music was almost constant because of Saban's input and Funi wanted to stay somewhat consistent with that with their inhouse dub and didn't want to risk kids getting bored from silence so made Team Faulconer do the same? Just a thought. Also the Westwood dub which used Megaman music also had wall-to-wall placement with goofy music playing in comedy scenes. I think it's generally a flaw that's shared with most dubbed anime that uses replacement music although it was admittedly less annoying in Levy's score.

The Nathan Jonson score on the other hand was almost like the opposite of Team Faulconer's in that it had silent moments and allowed for breathing room but wasn't that memorable and didn't do as good a job at establishing themes as the Faulconer score did.

All in all I feel like the positives of the Team Faulconer score outweigh the negatives. And even though there is a problem with wall-to-wall music the Japanese version occasionally has the opposite problem in that the silence goes on for too long such as in Tree of Might.

Strangely I do remember one scene were there was actually a really appropriate silent moment in the dub score. On the episode were Piccolo was fighting Imperfect Cell for the first time were at the end of the episode Cell began charging the Kamehameha and there was silence just as he fired it. If I remember right there wasn't even any narration at the end of that episode which was really rare.

[kenisu3000]

And even though there is a problem with wall-to-wall music the Japanese version occasionally has the opposite problem in that the silence goes on for too long such as in Tree of Might.

Personally, I love how Kikuchi and the music editor(s) handled Tree of Might. Having all those long stretches of silence in the movie results in such a breathtaking atmosphere, especially when Goku is lying beaten on the ground as Tullece rises back up to eat more of the fruit, and the earth begins to die. In fact, it's got to be in my top three favorite DBZ movies, all because of that atmosphere. Plus, it has that awesome gritty-but-raw-skill animation style I've always admired in the series. And then there's the fact that what music is there is some of Kikuchi's best.

[saiyanprimalforce]

When it comes to Shuki Levy's score, I'm honestly confused how some can like that, but detest Faulconer. It's got a particular voice and style at least, unlike Menza or Nathan Jones, but I guess it just reeks of 90's Power Rangers vibe(along with Frieza's original dub voice, lol). The only two Shuki Levy scores that stand out in my mind are from the 90's X-Men and Spider-Man shows. X-Men was shockingly treated like an proper show music-wise, and while Spider-Man had constant music, it helped that everything was full-orchestra(if quite repeititive). Nothing else really sticks out in my mind(ignoring Batman, of course), but then again, western cartoon music is more or less an afterthought for some background noise to keep the kiddies from getting so-called "bored" (Such a silly notion). Which is a reason why the Faulconer music I think is fondly embraced by dub fans as one of the key elements to their experience to the show--because it is defintely several steps up above the regular american cartoon music as far as standards and effort.

Though, to be honest, they're aren't too many tracks that I'm fond of from season 3(espesically the early episodes), but you can't really fault Scott or Mike for being dropped in the middle of an epic show(nevermind I'm sure the fast-paced schedule and short deadlines they had to get everything together). Besides the SS theme, energy disc, planet namek's destruction, piccolo and nail fuse, hell's bell, sage music, and a few others I'm sure--I think they totally nailed Freeza as far as creating very dark, brooding motifs that fit with how dreadfully powerful and dangerous he's meant to be(with the effect totally ruined by Linda Young's and the Z Dub's portrayal of Freeza). But Season 4 I feel is where they really hit their stride musically for the show(but it was only natural really).

But anyway, I'll just submit some more "evidence" (like I'm a prosecuting attorney here) as far as further proof the Faulconer music can actually suit the show and aide the effectivness of the story(I mean, seriously, these aren't just cheap plugs. I would've posted this yesterday with the other links if any of this had already been uploaded). Even more convincing to me are the Scott Morgan tracks I used as insert songs--which really shine at showing that "Faulconer" style, if uncuffed and placed with serious intent, can really shine as something quite special.

At least, I think so, lol (But I'm biased I guess!)


FP8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhhKYRdX4fs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjO7OPQ-v-k

FP5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm_BW-FyCGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-sBnMZBsYA

SM Insert Songs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi3veRqbfTA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEK_qAa-zLo

SM Encore 98: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J3EpH0Zgh8

Personally, I love how Kikuchi and the music editor(s) handled Tree of Might. Having all those long stretches of silence in the movie results in such a breathtaking atmosphere, especially when Goku is lying beaten on the ground as Tullece rises back up to eat more of the fruit, and the earth begins to die. In fact, it's got to be in my top three favorite DBZ movies, all because of that atmosphere. Plus, it has that awesome gritty-but-raw-skill animation style I've always admired in the series. And then there's the fact that what music is there is some of Kikuchi's best.

I agree as far as some of Kikuchi's movie 3 tracks being among his best--espesically the 1st track on the movie 3 suite on the Complete BGM and 5 disc sets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzUQfyVoQM Shame that track never actually got used in the movie(As far as I recall). Also the track used when Goku charges up his genki dama against Tullece, though I also associate that with Goku's 20x Kaioken against Freeza, heh.

[cRookie_Monster]

That's so cool you posted those 3 vids with my music today of all days...since it is my birthday Nice work!! I got that sweet high when first seeing your own music click with a scene many times. Beauty and Strength in particular was a nice surprise since I've never uploaded that one to youtube and it was just a quick track emulating Mike's Olibu theme.

[MCDaveG]

I understand people, who grew on that blasphemy.
Because, all the foreign dubs I grep up on, had Kikuchi's music. Only crazy thing back then was probably both of French intros (The first one for DB was in simmilar adventurous and kiddy mood as Makafushigi Adventure and wasn't that strinking as the DBZ one, with even sillier retarded song with montage of heroes in blood and battles from the Freeza arc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ1NcxAZUYk).
But all that was OK, until I saw some episodes years later on CN and spear went trough my ear and hit me into my brain...... I sat there like for 5 minutes with mouth wide open and eyeballs popped out.
Wat die fok?!! Even the dub sounded alien as everything was gritty and Vegeta sounded like he is wiping is ass with pine-trees.
It was even more grittier than German Vegeta, who was notoriously known among the DB fans as heavy middle-aged chain smoker.

So I can understand how kids watching series since the beginning with different score find it weird and alien.

[Quebaz]

I understand people, who grew on that blasphemy.
Because, all the foreign dubs I grep up on, had Kikuchi's music. Only crazy thing back then was probably both of French intros (The first one for DB was in simmilar adventurous and kiddy mood as Makafushigi Adventure and wasn't that strinking as the DBZ one, with even sillier retarded song with montage of heroes in blood and battles from the Freeza arc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ1NcxAZUYk).
But all that was OK, until I saw some episodes years later on CN and spear went trough my ear and hit me into my brain...... I sat there like for 5 minutes with mouth wide open and eyeballs popped out.
Wat die fok?!! Even the dub sounded alien as everything was gritty and Vegeta sounded like he is wiping is ass with pine-trees.
It was even more grittier than German Vegeta, who was notoriously known among the DB fans as heavy middle-aged chain smoker.

So I can understand how kids watching series since the beginning with different score find it weird and alien.

Ah the mystic DRAGON BALL Z Z Z opening in its original version, anyone could translate the lyrics, from what I know of French they seem to be diferent than the portuguese one.

[Quebaz]

double post

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

One thing that often gets overlooked is the fact that FUNimation never advertised their product as faithful dub -- it was always a "reversioning", which is business-speak for "reinterpretation". And the reason they "reversioned" the series was not out of arrogance and to make the show "better"; it was to make the show more marketable to a Western audience. The biggest outcome of this was the music, and the fact is that Kikuchi's score is quite dated and FUNimation sought to modernize the music to what was modern at the time. I think that DBZ probably would've been just as successful in the US with the original score, but FUNimation didn't want to take any chances. You may feel that every time an anime series is brought over to the US, it has to be faithful to the original Japanese, but that's just your opinion, even if it is the consensus.



As to whether the Faulconer score fits the show, that's completely subjective. Certainly, the setting and to some extent the tone of the series had changed from DB to DBZ, but it's up to the individual viewers to decide whether Faulconer's score reflects that. Same thing with the scores themselves. They're both of their times and have a distinctive overall sound that appeals to certain people and not others for various reasons. That's why I'm careful not to call music "bad". I understand why people like certain styles (or at least try to), but personally they're not for me. You could write a whole thesis on why classical music is better than popular music, carefully analyzing the complexities of classical music, but you'd never be "right".

[VegettoEX]

I'd argue that the Faulconer Productions score did not even sound contemporary at the time of its original composition, and now sounds even more laughably out-of-time than the original score to the original show ever did/will.

Which is, incidentally, a much further-along way I feel/felt about Yamamoto!Kai, even if I did enjoy some of those pieces.

[MCDaveG]

I really don't buy that ''western audience'' thing.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I'd argue that the Faulconer Productions score did not even sound contemporary at the time of its original composition, and now sounds even more laughably out-of-time than the original score to the original show ever did/will.

I don't really see that. Could you elaborate?

I really don't buy that ''western audience'' thing.

It's not just western music. As I explained, it's also what was contemporary at the time or at least more contemporary than the original score. Western music was classical music at one point; the point is that it was what kids in the US were listening to or more familiar with. Just look at the movies with their heavy metal. And look GT and its rap intro a few years later. FUNimation were clearly trying to appeal to the kids. Maybe it didn't work. Maybe it wasn't unnecessary. But that's what they were doing.

[Ajay]

I don't really see that. Could you elaborate?

Classical music like Kikuchi's tends to be timeless by nature whereas electronic music like Faulconer Production's ages heavily over time. It already sounded like early 80's electro rock music in the mid 90's and now it just sounds even more outdated.

[cRookie_Monster]

This may come off harsh to both scores, but the Japanese score sounds like 60s horror music to me and the Faulconer style has been compared to Tangerine Dream of the 70s(I learned of Tangerine Dream when people compared my "Future's Sword" to them). Of course both scores have multiple styles...so you can't just make sweeping statements like that. Kikuchi sometimes sounds like a very simplified Baroque style to me. And then there's the J-Pop side of the score. Faulconer Prod's sound can go from NIN's Pretty Hate Machine to ZZTop to Pantera, to Hannah Barbara sillyness or cheesy jazz music.

Anyway, the point was to adapt for US market and update the sound a bit at the same time.

Also I want to address the idea of "orchestral music is timeless" statement. I believe every music has a time. As much as I love him, John Williams' sound has definitely been replaced by the huge synth aided simplified sounds of Hans Zimmer. John Williams sound was an updated version of the old 1930's Korngold sound. If I hear an early Mozart piece I definitely don't think "timeless", I think ewww...snobby old aristocratic music. If I hear later Mozart I think "wow cool, he's starting to get swept into the Romantic Period by Beethoven". I can't remember where I heard it, but someone was talking about the "ancient sound" of the orchestra, like all the instruments in the modern orchestra just popped into existence 2000 years ago... The orchestra itself evolved over time....Brass used to be very limited because the instruments could only play a limited set of notes. Every single orchestral instrument went through a development period. IN the Baroque era it was all about harpsichord, strings, and double reeds. Later brass started taking over more and more, piano destroyed the harpsichord. The oboe and other double reeds fell more into the background.

So maybe to someone with no context anything "orchestral" is timeless but many people hear beyond "oh there's a string section playing! It's Classical music!" It's a shame that the "Classic Period"'s name has taken over all periods in modern casual language. It's actually my least favorite period lol. GIve me Romantic or 1980s to present film score styles. I love Renaissance choral styles. Classical is too much about old rich people putting on airs. Baroque is great to study for counterpoint analysis or learning to play fugues, but a lot of times it gets boring and monotonous sounding for me. Those are some of my personal opinions on the different styles which MANY will disagree with, but my point is there is a HUGE difference between these genres and the people who live through them would be shocked that even the music of 20 years before and after were all lumped together as "the same". Kinda like now. Is the music of the 80s the same as the 2010s? 1500s and 1530s? Music constantly changes. Getting back to DBZ, Kikuchi, yeah, to me. He's very much 60s which is no surprise given:

"Shunsuke Kikuchi graduated from Nihon University College of Fine Arts, Music. Active since 1961"
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Shunsuke_Kikuchi

I'm a child of the 80s, so surprise my music sounds very 80s

[Captain-Sora]

As much as I love him, John Williams' sound has definitely been replaced by the huge synth aided simplified sounds of Hans Zimmer.

This unfortunate truth is why the current era of film scoring totally blows. No one actually wants good music anymore, they all want more BWAAAAAAAMS and generic, overly simple motifs that are barely even noticeable because "it's edgy" and "epic" and "different". Curse that Zimmer! How can a man who was so promising in the 90s utterly destroy the world of film music with all those ambient noises and soundtracks devoid of any melodic beauty and thematic depth! He had such talent all those years ago, yet he winds up being the worst influence ever.

[cRookie_Monster]

As much as I love him, John Williams' sound has definitely been replaced by the huge synth aided simplified sounds of Hans Zimmer.

This unfortunate truth is why the current era of film scoring totally blows. No one actually wants good music anymore, they all want more BWAAAAAAAMS and generic, overly simple motifs that are barely even noticeable because "it's edgy" and "epic" and "different". Curse that Zimmer! How can a man who was so promising in the 90s utterly destroy the world of film music with all those ambient noises and soundtracks devoid of any melodic beauty and thematic depth! He had such talent all those years ago, yet he winds up being the worst influence ever.

For the record I don't hate Zimmer for this I think if it wasn't him, someone else would have done it. The whole industry has been moving that direction as our technology improves. We are able to make single notes that sound just incredible. It makes composers lazy melody wise. There's a reason 80s video game music had all these frenetic melodies...the instruments were terrible!! =D
I also think that the public has to be retrained. We are too sold and stuck on the idea that music is only melody, harmony, and rhythm and that music art only exists on a piece of sheet music. We forget timbre. Its about sound. The recording is the new medium, and has been for a long time. People work very hard to get good sounds. Composers now-a-days really have to be sound designers almost more than traditional "pitched" musicians. Layering, mixing, EQ, mastering, FX, mic choice and placement, processing, etc, etc...it actually is an art form. So while I miss the rich rhythmic and harmonic textures that only Williams seemed capable of, I do appreciate the huge and sometimes creative *sounds* of modern production. Dubstep for instance. A lot of people are like THATS NOT MUSIC ITS NOISE! They don't understand timbre as a major element of music. I think a lot of the innovation has moved to the tech companies like Native Instruments, East West, Ilio, and recently Heavocity. I wouldn't mind working for one of those guys creating sounds for other musicians to use.

[Ajay]

Well, whilst I was aware of many of your points, I have been absolutely schooled on the whole.

I guess my point was more akin to something along the lines of - since synths are artificial, they grow outdated particularly quickly whereas the overall sound of traditional instruments are forever familiar. The music will, of course, change over the time - I would never lump Kikuchi and Penderecki together but there's familiarity in traditional instruments.

Does that make sense or is that just as ignorant sounding as my initial statement?

[Gonstead]

First I'll get this out of the way - The score for Dragon Ball (Not Z) is perfectly fine in my eyes.

As for Z, I have to admit this but I'm on the same bandwagon that Kikuchi sounded dated, even compared to when Dragon Ball Z was first airing. Hearing Scott Morgan mention "60's Horror Movie" is pretty much exactly what I'm hearing most of the time.

A problem for me with Kikuchi is the overuse of a lot of the"twang", "boing", vibraslap, and general other similar things which ruin a lot of his compositions for me. They're perfectly fine for comedic effect, but are all that are needed to destroy a good serious sounding piece which I've invested my time to getting into the mood with.

A bit unrelated but some Kikuchi stuff does tend to remind me of older Tokusatsu shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5R3C4aHTdI

[Fionordequester]

There's a reason 80s video game music had all these frenetic melodies...the instruments were terrible!! =D

Those frenetic melodies, at least from what I've heard, were my favorite kind though !