Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Well they made the characters sooooo...
So, if Toriyama was to come out and say that Kuririn is stronger than SS3 Goku, you would accept it?! They said that Janenba is stronger because SS3 couldn't beat him, while he could beat Hildegarn. They didn't take Ryu-ken into consideration, and had Goku been able to use it against Janenba, I think he would make a hole in his body, since Janenba didn't seem to be far stronger than him (he had some special abilities). And they have also said that the previous movie villain is weaker than the next. I'll have to think it a little more.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Ryuken a hundreds of times amplification technique...? A little out there don't you think?
Make it smaller, because Hildegarn is not very durable, which is why he relies on this ghostly technique that avoids him from getting hits, and Ryu-ken is like a fast knife for his body, which made it even deadlier for him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I personally assume Hirudegarn's power level isn't anything Gotenks and Gohan can't handle. It's Hirudegarn's sneak attacks as well as his overall physical strength that let him down Gotenks and Gohan. If Toriyama said something, I'm kinda obligated to believe it, seeing as how he's the creator. Yeah, Toei's logic is flawed, but that doesn't change the fact that they made Janenba stronger.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I personally assume Hirudegarn's power level isn't anything Gotenks and Gohan can't handle. It's Hirudegarn's sneak attacks as well as his overall physical strength that let him down Gotenks and Gohan.
Me agrees.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
They "stated" it on an old website that I don't think exists anymore by referencing events that didn't happen.
Hirudegarn casually one shotted both Gotenks AND Gohan. The latter with a simple flick of his tail. Janemba had to resort to special powers to beat Goku. Sooooooo...
This is also ignoring the fact that a writer said new villains in the films always surpass previous ones (shouldn't he override whatever guy they got to make the website?) and anime power scaling is screwed up in the first place. Hirudegarn < Janemba can't be the case unless Goku > Gohan also is.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu but I can say I think Gotenks when he first fuse. Was slightly weakener than Majin Vegeta. As I think Goku was counting on them to become stronger(Don't know how..but he counted on it lol) or be sytrong enough to BARELY beat Boo. Maybe a ultra duper attack! Also I think we got to take account that Goten and Trunks could have fused in SSJ to make SSJ Gotenks to beat Boo as well. So...I think Base Gotenks < Vegeta(Majin) but later on Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta.
Goku > Gohan also is.
Don't underestimate the power of Toei's wet dream.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Hirudegarn casually one shotted both Gotenks AND Gohan. The latter with a simple flick of his tail.
Hildegarn caught them both off-guard though. BTW, he squeezed Gohan with his tail, he didn't flick him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheGmGoken wrote:I don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu but I can say I think Gotenks when he first fuse. Was slightly weakener than Majin Vegeta. As I think Goku was counting on them to become stronger(Don't know how..but he counted on it lol) or be sytrong enough to BARELY beat Boo. Maybe a ultra duper attack! Also I think we got to take account that Goten and Trunks could have fused in SSJ to make SSJ Gotenks to beat Boo as well. So...I think Base Gotenks < Vegeta(Majin) but later on Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta.
Goku > Gohan also is.
Don't underestimate the power of Toei's wet dream.
I disagree with him believing that the boys would need to get stronger to be able to destroy Buu, because he acts like the fusion should be more than enough as it is, and as soon as they mastered it, they'd be able to destroy him easily.
TheGmGoken wrote:I don't go by everything in the Daizenshuu but I can say I think Gotenks when he first fuse. Was slightly weakener than Majin Vegeta. As I think Goku was counting on them to become stronger(Don't know how..but he counted on it lol) or be sytrong enough to BARELY beat Boo. Maybe a ultra duper attack! Also I think we got to take account that Goten and Trunks could have fused in SSJ to make SSJ Gotenks to beat Boo as well. So...I think Base Gotenks < Vegeta(Majin) but later on Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta.
Goku > Gohan also is.
Don't underestimate the power of Toei's wet dream.
I disagree with him believing that the boys would need to get stronger to be able to destroy Buu, because he acts like the fusion should be more than enough as it is, and as soon as they mastered it, they'd be able to destroy him easily.
I didn't say Goku believe that they would need to get stronger. I said he most likely could have wanted them to at least get stronger with the fusion.
RandomGuy96 wrote:They "stated" it on an old website that I don't think exists anymore by referencing events that didn't happen.
Hirudegarn casually one shotted both Gotenks AND Gohan. The latter with a simple flick of his tail. Janemba had to resort to special powers to beat Goku. Sooooooo...
This is also ignoring the fact that a writer said new villains in the films always surpass previous ones (shouldn't he override whatever guy they got to make the website?) and anime power scaling is screwed up in the first place. Hirudegarn < Janemba can't be the case unless Goku > Gohan also is.
Hmm, I did not know this. So Hirudegarn is stronger then.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
I don't believe Bio Broly is stronger than Second coming Broly. Everything else can work.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't believe Bio Broly is stronger than Second coming Broly. Everything else can work.
Well yeah.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't believe Bio Broly is stronger than Second coming Broly. Everything else can work.
That's is kinda of an exception in my opinion.
It's really the only one that doesn't work with the statement.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't believe Bio Broly is stronger than Second coming Broly. Everything else can work.
That's is kinda of an exception in my opinion.
It's really the only one that doesn't work with the statement.
And that's because...?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheGmGoken wrote:
That's is kinda of an exception in my opinion.
It's really the only one that doesn't work with the statement.
And that's because...?
It could be the fact that he was killed by Goten, Trunks and Krillin
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It could be the fact that he was killed by Goten, Trunks and Krillin
No, it was the seawater that killed him, because that's the weakness of Bio-Men. Goten, Trunks, and Kuririn couldn't do shit to Bio-Broli. And since he is a clone of Broli, he should be at least as strong as the original.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It could be the fact that he was killed by Goten, Trunks and Krillin
No, it was the seawater that killed him, because that's the weakness of Bio-Men. Goten, Trunks, and Kuririn couldn't do shit to Bio-Broli. And since he is a clone of Broli, he should be at least as strong as the original.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It could be the fact that he was killed by Goten, Trunks and Krillin
No, it was the seawater that killed him, because that's the weakness of Bio-Men. Goten, Trunks, and Kuririn couldn't do shit to Bio-Broli. And since he is a clone of Broli, he should be at least as strong as the original.
Umm, he got budged by Goten and Trunks. SSJ2 Gohan could only do that after going all out. Broly(M10) >>> Broly(M11).
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Umm, he got budged by Goten and Trunks.
This happened only once, when they both punched him at the same time & place when going all out. Since this was the combined power of 2 Super Saiyans, the hit was equal to a hit from a Super Saiyan 2.
TheGmGoken wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It could be the fact that he was killed by Goten, Trunks and Krillin
No, it was the seawater that killed him, because that's the weakness of Bio-Men. Goten, Trunks, and Kuririn couldn't do shit to Bio-Broli. And since he is a clone of Broli, he should be at least as strong as the original.
No Gohan and Vegeta?
They don't appear in M11.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
That's whY I said it lol. I'm saying Toei is not 100% stupid at times. I think why Gohan wasn't there was because of overkill. Hell they didn't even use Goku. That's saying A LOT
