Is filler as simple as just that: it's filler?

[ABED]

1 - There's a world of difference between rough training and fighting a guy that's actively trying to murder you.
2 - He's a young kid.
3 - He gets scared and fails his allies ONCE, but he bucks up soon thereafter so the filler wasn't pointless. Characters can develop and take a step back, that doesn't make it pointless, it's often true in real life.

So his friends being in danger is A okay as long as it isn't daddy.

And no, they aren't his friends at that point. Piccolo is, but yes, his daddy is completely different. It's okay for Gohan to be more protective of someone he knows and loves than it is people whom he knew for a cup of coffee.

The filler doesn't really build up any courage though.

Robot Episode? Fails to save robot
Dinousar Episode? Fails to save dinosaur
Orphans Episode? Fails to save orphans.

He didn't fail to save them because he wasn't courageous enough. He was very green when the robot died, he was courageous when his dino friend was being killed, but he didn't have the strength, and he didn't save the orphans, but that wasn't a lack of courage.

The manga view makes a lot more sense and in my opinion is much better.

Except that he's green one minute and a warrior a chapter later.

Paikuhan's existence also contradicts Goku not finding anyone strong in the afterlife.

The act of contradiction doesn't make filler bad. Toriyama's work sometimes contradicts itself.

[Saiga]

No, he's not "green one minute warrior the next". He goes from scared, to fighting Vegeta despite still being scared, to wanting to go to Namek because he wants to help Piccolo. And even on Namek he still gets scared, but he also finds his resolve.

And I was just pointing out that there was a contradiction with the Otherworld Filler when Kental was trying to say how it could be fine without just the hell sequence. And I don't really care if the manga has it's own contradictions, that doesn't make other contradictions okay.

[dbzfan7]

No, he's not "green one minute warrior the next". He goes from scared, to fighting Vegeta despite still being scared, to wanting to go to Namek because he wants to help Piccolo. And even on Namek he still gets scared, but he also finds his resolve.

And I was just pointing out that there was a contradiction with the Otherworld Filler when Kental was trying to say how it could be fine without just the hell sequence. And I don't really care if the manga has it's own contradictions, that doesn't make other contradictions okay.

Once again what you said. Gohan Filler=Colossal waste of time.

I don't need to know someone long for them to be a friend. If they'll die for me, they're friends of mine.

[ABED]

Once again what you said. Gohan Filler=Colossal waste of time.

I don't need to know someone long for them to be a friend. If they'll die for me, they're friends of mine.

Still not a friend. Friend connotates a relationship and a level of knowledge about a person. They are allies, not friends. And even so, his father is still a greater value than them.

No, he's not "green one minute warrior the next".

I meant he was a child one minute and fully trained with the span of one or two chapters.

that doesn't make other contradictions okay.

I didn't say that it did. Contradictions are bad, but what if the thing that contradicts the first thing is better?

[dbzfan7]

Once again what you said. Gohan Filler=Colossal waste of time.

I don't need to know someone long for them to be a friend. If they'll die for me, they're friends of mine.

Still not a friend. Friend connotates a relationship and a level of knowledge about a person. They are allies, not friends. And even so, his father is still a greater value than them.

That's a friend to me. Anyone who is willing to die for me is a friend. An ally won't always give a shit about you. An ally is someone on your team who will help further the goal. A friend is someone who would put my life above the goal. Every single one of them would do that for Gohan.

[ABED]

Once again what you said. Gohan Filler=Colossal waste of time.

I don't need to know someone long for them to be a friend. If they'll die for me, they're friends of mine.

Still not a friend. Friend connotates a relationship and a level of knowledge about a person. They are allies, not friends. And even so, his father is still a greater value than them.

That's a friend to me. Anyone who is willing to die for me is a friend. An ally won't always give a shit about you. An ally is someone on your team who will help further the goal. A friend is someone who would put my life above the goal. Every single one of them would do that for Gohan.

They would do that because Gohan is their friend's child, an innocent one at that. A firefighter is willing to die to save people, I don't think they consider everyone they save their friends.

In the context of the fight against the Saiyans, the goal is to save their lives.

[dbzfan7]

They would do that because Gohan is their friend's child, an innocent one at that. A firefighter is willing to die to save people, I don't think they consider everyone they save their friends.

In the context of the fight against the Saiyans, the goal is to save their lives.

It's a firefighters job to do that so that's different, they are obligated to save people. Nobody has to save Gohan, but they do because they care for him. That classify's them as friends in my book. You can't exactly argue with my definition of friends.

[ABED]

They would do that because Gohan is their friend's child, an innocent one at that. A firefighter is willing to die to save people, I don't think they consider everyone they save their friends.

In the context of the fight against the Saiyans, the goal is to save their lives.

It's a firefighters job to do that so that's different, they are obligated to save people. Nobody has to save Gohan, but they do because they care for him. That classify's them as friends in my book. You can't exactly argue with my definition of friends.

What do you think I'm doing? Of course I disagree with your definition.

You could just as easily say that because Goku is their friend, their moral obligation is to save his son if they truely care about Goku.

Even assuming I agreed that the Z team are his friends, YES, Gohan caring more about his daddy and sticking up for him makes more sense. And stop saying he "wussed" out. He's a child. He got understandably scared. In the fight against Vegeta, he had more or less learned his lesson. Remember, it was Gohan that decided to go back to help his father even though he had told him to leave.

[dbzfan7]

What do you think I'm doing? Of course I disagree with your definition.

You could just as easily say that because Goku is their friend, their moral obligation is to save his son if they truely care about Goku.

Yeah no shit I can see that and it's bringing this thread off topic. They don't have any moral obligation to save Gohan at all when they can resurrect him with the Dragon Balls anyways. But they would save him over an open opportunity to kill a Saiyan because they care. Ally's will focus on the goal and will choose the goal over someones life. Friends will choose someone's life over the goal.

On the actual topic I think the filler was pointless, adds to nothing, and I think it's actually better that Piccolo focused on building up his power over his mindset. Which led to the Gohan's puss out moment.

[ABED]

What do you think I'm doing? Of course I disagree with your definition.

You could just as easily say that because Goku is their friend, their moral obligation is to save his son if they truely care about Goku.

Yeah no shit I can see that and it's bringing this thread off topic. They don't have any moral obligation to save Gohan at all when they can resurrect him with the Dragon Balls anyways. But they would save him over an open opportunity to kill a Saiyan because they care. Ally's will focus on the goal and will choose the goal over someones life. Friends will choose someone's life over the goal.

Of course they have a moral obligation to see that their friend's son come to no harm, even with the Dragon Balls in existence if they truely cared about Goku.

The definition of a friend has nothing to do with life and death.

Your view of what an ally is sounds like something you either read or inferred. Allies will often die to protect each other.

Anyway, I like the Gohan filler. I think it gave a new and important character dimension.

[dbzfan7]

What do you think I'm doing? Of course I disagree with your definition.

You could just as easily say that because Goku is their friend, their moral obligation is to save his son if they truely care about Goku.

Yeah no shit I can see that and it's bringing this thread off topic. They don't have any moral obligation to save Gohan at all when they can resurrect him with the Dragon Balls anyways. But they would save him over an open opportunity to kill a Saiyan because they care. Ally's will focus on the goal and will choose the goal over someones life. Friends will choose someone's life over the goal.

Of course they have a moral obligation to see that their friend's son come to no harm, even with the Dragon Balls in existence if they truely cared about Goku.

The definition of a friend has nothing to do with life and death.

Your view of what an ally is sounds like something you either read or inferred. Allies will die to protect strangers.

No they don't. Protecting the earth is the number one concern. Goku would perfectly understand if Gohan died to protect the earth. But they will save Gohan because he's Goku's son and a friend. Ever hear the saying "a friend of yours is a friend of mine." That's exactly what Gohan is. He is Goku's son and a friend. Krillin is Goku's friend and so he would be Gohan's. I see no reason they wouldn't be friends when Gohan makes friends with fucking Piccolo of all people. An ally may help when they can, but if it comes to saving millions to one, they will go with the millions.

Dude your bringing this waaaay off topic because you don't agree with my stance on friends. Your not going to change my mind.

[Saiga]

@ABED That's because a timeskip happened. The filler didn't actually focus much on his training either, just random side adventures.

And contradictions are just bad, end of story. It's not worth contradicting something for something else, because good writing can introduce damn near anything without contradicting something earlier as long as it's handled well, instead of lazily.

[ABED]

No they don't. Protecting the earth is the number one concern. Goku would perfectly understand if Gohan died to protect the earth. But they will save Gohan because he's Goku's son and a friend. Ever hear the saying "a friend of yours is a friend of mine." That's exactly what Gohan is. He is Goku's son and a friend. Krillin is Goku's friend and so he would be Gohan's. I see no reason they wouldn't be friends when Gohan makes friends with fucking Piccolo of all people. An ally may help when they can, but if it comes to saving millions to one, they will go with the millions.

Dude your bringing this waaaay off topic because you don't agree with my stance on friends. Your not going to change my mind.

You make it sound like Goku would be nonchalant about the death of his son.

That "a friend of yours..." is a nice sentiment but not really accurate. It just says that I trust your assessment of people's character because I know you, but until you really know someone, they aren't your friend. They are allies or acquaintances, until a certain amount of time and familiarity has set in.

Piccolo does qualify as a friend, he spent 6 months with him.

Gohan doesn't know Kuririn. He knows of him, but there isn't that emotional involvement, and a lot changes between him saving his father and when he gets scared and doesn't try to kill Nappa. Yes, it was an open shot but there was no guarentee that it would've amounted to anything. Gohan is still a child and an inexperienced fighter. The manga in no way contradicts the filler. There's no way a quasi controlled environment is gonna get Gohan ready to face two men actively trying to murder him. He was there for the battle and in a fighting stance, which is more than he would've been before his training. Showing fear even though he conquered a few obstacles and learned a few life lessons in no way precludes his fear getting to him.

That's because a timeskip happened. The filler didn't actually focus much on his training either, just random side adventures.

And contradictions are just bad, end of story. It's not worth contradicting something for something else, because good writing can introduce damn near anything without contradicting something earlier as long as it's handled well, instead of lazily.

I get the concept of a timeskip, I'm saying that it's abrupt. The random side ventures do focus on Gohan's emotional development, and learning how to control his power.

I know contradictions are bad, but that doesn't mean that there isn't good material in contradictions. For instance, in some cases Planet Vegeta is shown to be a technologically advanced civilization, and in others it's shown to be wartorn. I think wartorn is the better choice.

[Monkey D Goku]

i would say the filler does both fill up time and add character depth in some cases. Although other times it's just unneeded.

I like the Vegeta going of into space searching for Goku filler. Seemed like something he would do at that point in time.
Other times filler adds nothing to any of the characters but can be seen just for laughs like the driving episode that was pretty funny.

I did not enjoy the Bulma losing one of the dragonballs filler episode on Namek that was just unnecessary.

[dbzfan7]

You make it sound like Goku would be nonchalant about the death of his son.

That "a friend of yours..." is a nice sentiment but not really accurate. It just says that I trust your assessment of people's character because I know you, but until you really know someone, they aren't your friend. They are allies or acquaintances, until a certain amount of time and familiarity has set in.

Piccolo does qualify as a friend, he spent 6 months with him.

Gohan doesn't know Kuririn. He knows of him, but there isn't that emotional involvement, and a lot changes between him saving his father and when he gets scared and doesn't try to kill Nappa. Yes, it was an open shot but there was no guarentee that it would've amounted to anything. Gohan is still a child and an inexperienced fighter. The manga in no way contradicts the filler. There's no way a quasi controlled environment is gonna get Gohan ready to face two men actively trying to murder him. He was there for the battle and in a fighting stance, which is more than he would've been before his training. Showing fear even though he conquered a few obstacles and learned a few life lessons in no way precludes his fear getting to him.

That's because he would be. He isn't that devastated in the Boo saga that Gohan died at all (that's what he believes). He's not happy about it. But it doesn't faze him that much at all. It doesn't even faze him in later scenes.

In your opinion. I believe it's fits perfectly fine. Gohan had no problem befriending the guy who act's like an asshole to him an constantly beats him, so I see no reason his dad's friends he wouldn't consider his own. Sure they wouldn't share the same sentimental value, but he can still easily think of his besty Piccolo, and yet easily lets him down. Gohan's anime filler leads to absolutely nothing at all. It's far more believable Piccolo (just like Goku) underestimated his mental state and just worked on physically building Gohan. Those life lessons are so pointless when they aren't used at all. Like all filler it's just there, and completely forgotten once the canon material hits.

[Kid Buu]

Well, I like the Princess Snake filler and the Humans Vs. Saiyans filler. But I admit that when I rewatching the Saiyan arc at some points I was just thinking "get to the Nappa and Vegeta fight already"

[dbzfan7]

I dislike all filler that try's to act meaningful when it doesn't add to character development (and the characters will completely forget about everything that happened in the filler). It's so pointless when the manga didn't need it. I do however like filer that's just for fun and not trying to pointlessly add character development such as the driving episode or when Goku hung out with that fox kid. That filler is fine.

[Vijay]

Maybe its just me, but I found the Buu Saga fillers to be enjoyable.

Goku/Vegeta tag-team fight against Chou Gohan/SS3 Gotenks/Piccolo inside of Buu was nicely choreographed.

[ABED]

That's because he would be. He isn't that devastated in the Boo saga that Gohan died at all (that's what he believes). He's not happy about it. But it doesn't faze him that much at all. It doesn't even faze him in later scenes.

In your opinion. I believe it's fits perfectly fine. Gohan had no problem befriending the guy who act's like an asshole to him an constantly beats him, so I see no reason his dad's friends he wouldn't consider his own. Sure they wouldn't share the same sentimental value, but he can still easily think of his besty Piccolo, and yet easily lets him down. Gohan's anime filler leads to absolutely nothing at all. It's far more believable Piccolo (just like Goku) underestimated his mental state and just worked on physically building Gohan. Those life lessons are so pointless when they aren't used at all. Like all filler it's just there, and completely forgotten once the canon material hits.

To which I say Goku was pissed when Kuririn died even though he knew the Dragon Balls could bring him back. The Buu arc has Goku acting out of character a few times, or you can chalk it up to the cumulative effect of having so many friends die and come back, plus, I think Goku said that he didn't truely believe Gohan was dead.

I think some have pointed out that there's a bit of Stockholm Syndrom with Gohan's friendship with Piccolo. Piccolo didn't beat him out of masachism, he was training for an enemy that was far stronger than a man that they had a lot of trouble fighting.

Piccolo was Gohan's besty basically by default and again, I point to the SIX MONTHS they spent together. I don't think Gohan loved Piccolo the first six, but after a while realized Piccolo wasn't as evil as he had been lead to believe.

The Anime filler does lead to stuff. It shows how Gohan learned to use his powers instead of "next chapter he's in control". Piccolo did just work on Gohan physically, again, there's a world of difference between Gohan's training and actual battle, and Gohan did overcome his fear in the battle. Nothing was forgotten. It's like you're implying that after the filler Gohan absolutely could not have succumbed to his fear.

[KentalSSJ6]

Maybe its just me, but I found the Buu Saga fillers to be enjoyable.

Goku/Vegeta tag-team fight against Chou Gohan/SS3 Gotenks/Piccolo inside of Buu was nicely choreographed.

And at the same time, royally screwed with the fan's concept of character strength. Goku and Vegeta able to handle Mystic Gohan and Gotenks in SSJ1? Yeah, if anything gets removed from Kai Buu, it better be that whole scene.