DBZ Abridged > Kai

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think we're a parody made by a bunch of amateur voice actors (though some of us are now professionals)...

I really hope so. I say that as a professional voice actor myself, as well as someone who hears what many aspiring professional voice actors try to pass off as professional.

I give advice--free advice, I'm not a coach/consultant--to people who want to get into the voice acting business, and many times I can't help but feel a lack of confidence in aspiring voice actors. I absolutely believe--and have witnessed--that people can improve their acting talents in time, it's just that this business is tough as hell...so while I'm never so bold or mean-spirited as to declare a VO career for aspiring voice actors "hopeless," there are many who I feel, when I talk to them, that their VO future doesn't look bright. I've heard several instances of, "Well, I've never acted before, I don't like to act, I'm just looking for an easy way to make money from home." Kinda hard to feel confident in that, y'know?

You guys, however, have the creativity and acting talent that so many other people who aspire, train, and pay to do VO professionally do not have.

I'm not saying that's a guarantee that you guys would do well in the VO biz--there's no such thing as a guarantee in this business at all, nothing's ever consistent, every month's a new challenge, and there's more to having a successful VO career than just being a talented actor--but acting talent is, hands-down, the most important thing to have, and you guys have demonstrated not only that you have that in spades, but that you all have become more skilled as actors as DBZ Abridged has progressed. Even for those of you who opted to mimic the voices of the dub actors, you still have presented a wide and completely believable emotional range in the context of what you guys have created.

Anyways. Not to embarrass your anything!

As far as the original topic is concerned, I don't know that I'd say one is "better" than the other because it's kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison. I do enjoy both of them immensely, though.

[dbzfan7]

Kaiser said everything that needs to be said. Though I'd easily say that Season 1 Abridged is better acted than most of the funimation/Ocean dub. Season 2 and onward destroys the funimation/Ocean dub.

[KaiserNeko]

Kaiser said everything that needs to be said. Though I'd easily say that Season 1 Abridged is better acted than most of the funimation/Ocean dub. Season 2 and onward destroys the funimation/Ocean dub.

Oof, really? Our acting in Season 1 was... I mean, sure, I give the early stuff from Funi (Freeza up through most of the Android stuff) a lot of guff, but... eh. Also, Ocean was full of fantastic Vancouver actors doing more than serviceable jobs. I wouldn't compare any of our Season 1 stuff, or a lot of our Season 2 stuff, to those actors. I don't know, just seems inappropriate, regardless of how talented I truly feel my team is.

[dbzfan7]

Kaiser said everything that needs to be said. Though I'd easily say that Season 1 Abridged is better acted than most of the funimation/Ocean dub. Season 2 and onward destroys the funimation/Ocean dub.

Oof, really? Our acting in Season 1 was... I mean, sure, I give the early stuff from Funi (Freeza up through most of the Android stuff) a lot of guff, but... eh. Also, Ocean was full of fantastic Vancouver actors doing more than serviceable jobs. I wouldn't compare any of our Season 1 stuff, or a lot of our Season 2 stuff, to those actors. I don't know, just seems inappropriate, regardless of how talented I truly feel my team is.

Maybe Season 1 would be jumping the gun, but I stand by Season 2 definitely being better acted than the old dubs. Hell they barely could do many takes in the old days so it partially makes sense why they weren't so good, besides being green. I can buy the performances. Most of the old dub felt like cold reads to me. And I have done loads of those.

[Fennekin]

I never compare an official dub with a fanmade parody, which is pointless and disrespectful.

I agree. It's hardly fair to take a professional dub that takes the series seriously to another dub, which really shouldn't be allowed to do this to begin with, that is making fun of the show and not portraying it in the way it was meant to be seen.

[Kamiccolo9]

I never compare an official dub with a fanmade parody, which is pointless and disrespectful.

I agree. It's hardly fair to take a professional dub that takes the series seriously to another dub, which really shouldn't be allowed to do this to begin with, that is making fun of the show and not portraying it in the way it was meant to be seen.

What do you mean by that?

Also, while I think that LittleKuriboh could pull of an excellent serious-dub Freeza, I generally agree with the rest of this thread. Kaiser and Co. are great at what they do, and shouldn't really be compared to the Kai voice actors, who are doing something entirely different.

[Fennekin]

I never compare an official dub with a fanmade parody, which is pointless and disrespectful.

I agree. It's hardly fair to take a professional dub that takes the series seriously to another dub, which really shouldn't be allowed to do this to begin with, that is making fun of the show and not portraying it in the way it was meant to be seen.

What do you mean by that?

Also, while I think that LittleKuriboh could pull of an excellent serious-dub Freeza, I generally agree with the rest of this thread. Kaiser and Co. are great at what they do, and shouldn't really be compared to the Kai voice actors, who are doing something entirely different.

Well, do they actually have any consent from Toei Animation or another holder of rights to even produce their parody? Television networks can't get away with this, so why should it be any different online on sites like YouTube? No offense to the abridgers, but they are technically using mostly footage that wasn't created by themselves, so why should they be allowed to do so? If they made completely new animation themselves, I would feel differently, but you have to understand they are still using footage that isn't rightfully theirs.

[KaiserNeko]

Well, do they actually have any consent from Toei Animation or another holder of rights to even produce their parody? Television networks can't get away with this, so why should it be any different online on sites like YouTube? No offense to the abridgers, but they are technically using mostly footage that wasn't created by themselves, so why should they be allowed to do so? If they made completely new animation themselves, I would feel differently, but you have to understand they are still using footage that isn't rightfully theirs.

I understand this position, but ultimately, we're not making money off of it, which actually does allow us a legal loophole, be it very gray. We're just trying to have fun with a series that means a lot to us, not turn it into some kind of business. We work very hard on the series with the limited amount of money we DO make from shirts and let's plays which, to be quite honest, doesn't even equal out to minimum wage.

We're not sailing some ship to stardom on this project, we're not making bucco bucks, and we're promoting a show that we love. We're not turning people AWAY from the series either. We've had, on many occasions, fans tell us they've gone back and re-watched the series because of us, through copies they already owned or copies they subsequently bought after watching our show.

Also, animation costs a ridiculous amount of money for it to look good and, considering what we want to do with the show, we'd need HOURS upon HOURS worth of it just to properly convey our vision. We're not profiting off of the series proper; people don't have to pay to watch it, they don't have to watch ads to watch it, and their support comes down primarily to just enjoying the show and giving us some notoriety. It's not like we aren't putting in the time, effort, and money to work on this series to make it the best we can, either. We bust our asses for our fans, we always promote the real series, and we have always gone out of way to show respect to the people we owe our success to: Funimation, Toei Animation, and our fans.

Without them, god knows where we'd be today.

True, we could never have started Abridged without their footage. But all we want to do is show our love for the series, in all it's iterations, as well as entertain our fans.

(If this were a legal problem, BTW? We wouldn't exist. Funimation has had no qualms in the past with shutting down similar endeavors that overstepped their boundaries. There are also... other factors. That's all that I'll say.)

[Cursed Lemon]

Maybe Season 1 would be jumping the gun, but I stand by Season 2 definitely being better acted than the old dubs. Hell they barely could do many takes in the old days so it partially makes sense why they weren't so good, besides being green. I can buy the performances. Most of the old dub felt like cold reads to me. And I have done loads of those.

TFS has the luxury of being able to rewrite the script at will. Keep that in mind.

[VegettoEX]

but ultimately, we're not making money off of it, which actually does allow us a legal loophole, be it very gray.

No. There is no legal loophole. There is no leeway.

It's just that no rights holders have bothered to shut you down, for whatever reason (personal interest/enjoyment of the production, actual naiveté to its existence, not wanting to create a Streisand Effect, etc.). If they really wanted to, they have absolutely every single right to have already delivered a C&D to your physical mailbox at home.

[dbzfan7]

Maybe Season 1 would be jumping the gun, but I stand by Season 2 definitely being better acted than the old dubs. Hell they barely could do many takes in the old days so it partially makes sense why they weren't so good, besides being green. I can buy the performances. Most of the old dub felt like cold reads to me. And I have done loads of those.

TFS has the luxury of being able to rewrite the script at will. Keep that in mind.

Originally the VO's barely had many takes to get a good one. TFS can keep trying to get a good take while the old dubbing process didn't allow multiple do overs.

[Cursed Lemon]

Originally the VO's barely had many takes to get a good one. TFS can keep trying to get a good take while the old dubbing process didn't allow multiple do overs.

Also true.

No. There is no legal loophole. There is no leeway.

It's just that no rights holders have bothered to shut you down, for whatever reason (personal interest/enjoyment of the production, actual naiveté to its existence, not wanting to create a Streisand Effect, etc.). If they really wanted to, they have absolutely every single right to have already delivered a C&D to your physical mailbox at home.

I don't understand; it's a parody, aren't parodies free and clear when it comes to copyright?

[VegettoEX]

You don't just get to claim "parody" and get free reign over whatever you want to do. There are still plenty of laws in effect (the DMCA, for one; you technically have to break the law to get the footage) and you'd have to prove that it's "parody" to a judge in the first place, and he/she isn't necessarily going to agree that's what it is.

[Cursed Lemon]

Well, my implicit stipulation was that it's fairly obvious it is a parody, of course you'd have to get a court to agree but I don't think they'd contend that.

On the footage part, doesn't it fall under similar precedent as people who do reviews, e.g. the Nostalgia Critic? He's had a few legal battles from what I can recall and he's won all of them.

[KaiserNeko]

but ultimately, we're not making money off of it, which actually does allow us a legal loophole, be it very gray.

No. There is no legal loophole. There is no leeway.

It's just that no rights holders have bothered to shut you down, for whatever reason (personal interest/enjoyment of the production, actual naiveté to its existence, not wanting to create a Streisand Effect, etc.). If they really wanted to, they have absolutely every single right to have already delivered a C&D to your physical mailbox at home.

Man, when you correct someone, you don't sugar coat. But you're right, we do ultimately have an angel or two to account for our continued existence.

[KentalSSJ6]

but ultimately, we're not making money off of it, which actually does allow us a legal loophole, be it very gray.

No. There is no legal loophole. There is no leeway.

It's just that no rights holders have bothered to shut you down, for whatever reason (personal interest/enjoyment of the production, actual naiveté to its existence, not wanting to create a Streisand Effect, etc.). If they really wanted to, they have absolutely every single right to have already delivered a C&D to your physical mailbox at home.

Man, when you correct someone, you don't sugar coat. But you're right, we do ultimately have an angel or two to account for our continued existence.

I think your fine with Funimation, seeing as Chris Sabat is a huge fan of Abridged and correct me if I'm wrong, wanted to get you guys in to do some voice acting with him.

No idea how popular Abridged is in Japan.

[Kakarot88]

but ultimately, we're not making money off of it, which actually does allow us a legal loophole, be it very gray.

No. There is no legal loophole. There is no leeway.

It's just that no rights holders have bothered to shut you down, for whatever reason (personal interest/enjoyment of the production, actual naiveté to its existence, not wanting to create a Streisand Effect, etc.). If they really wanted to, they have absolutely every single right to have already delivered a C&D to your physical mailbox at home.

Man, when you correct someone, you don't sugar coat. But you're right, we do ultimately have an angel or two to account for our continued existence.

Take it for what it's worth but as a law student I am fairly confident that the main reason y'all are ok is very basic and 2 fold:
(1) Generally in order to break IP laws you must be making a profit off of what you are doing. You are doing this for free so generally, there can be no cause of action for profits you have made as you have made none other than say good will as a going concern for your group "Team Four Star" and its flagship series "Dragon Ball Z Abridged". This is of course a very basic and preliminary idea.
(2) Parody cases are generally based on a copywritten work and more likely to be excused as a fair use if the parody is aimed at the copyrighted work itself AND the defendant only copied the extent necessary to “conjure up” the copyrighted work in the audience’s mind, so they would know it was a parody. Here, you've done substantially more, as in disclaimed it as parody, altered script and story as well as edited the video...however you also use footage well beyond merely "conjuring up" the idea of Dragon Ball Z. But again the lack of making a profit essentially keeps any claim against you dead in the water and not worth a company's time especially if you are not degrading the series and in fact are increasing the fan base. Negative back lash from taking action alone would make any savvy business person hesitant to take action. Also, given your popularity there could be an argument that you have diluted the market for dragon ball, again though you are not making a profit AND the amount of Dragon Ball Z etc you show per episode is not a true substitute for that content so again it clearly falls under parody and again likely receives protection.


More to the point: The US Supreme Court held, among other things, in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. (US, 1994) that when 2 Live Crew made rap parody of “pretty woman” although even there, there was a commercial purpose (ie a profit was being made) that is only 1 element of the inquiry into the work’s purpose and character for fair use purposes. The court also must consider the nature of the coppyrighted work, the ammount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole, and the effect of the use upon the potential market for the copyrighted work. The parody's transformative elements, and potential for market harm must also be considered. Further, the court went on to note that a parody is a literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule "parodist must use some elements of prior author’s work to create a new one that comments on the old work."

Here, Dragon Ball Z Abridged may or may not be fair use depending on whether it could be perceived as commenting on the original!


All this is just my casual observation and would change if maybe I had more facts.

Disclaimer: These notes and statements are in no way nor intended as legal advice and provide no warranty as to their correctness, completeness, or quality. They are not meant to be a substitute for your own efforts. I am not yet an attorney nor am I claiming to be one nor am I providing legal advice.

[ErikB]

I didn't see anyone else mention this (correct me if I missed it) but I think it's worth mentioning: The Abridged actors can give their performance in just about any way they want (any inflections, any emphases, etc.) because the footage gets edited afterwards to match their recordings. FUNimation's actors have to match the existing lip-flaps as is.
That in mind, whether or not you think Abridged's actors delivered better performances, I'd say FUNimation's cast has done a pretty good job working with that limitation.

[RocktheDragon]

I don't even think it's a contest man! One is a satire (a really well made one) and the other is the Dragon Ball Z anime with a great soundtrack and way less filler! I don't see how anyone could choose the former over the latter but I guess it's possible for some people. Kai is just such a treat for me to experience that I wouldn't trade it for the world (or at least DBZ abridged).

[WittyUsername]

I don't mean to disrespect TFS, but I really don't see how people can think that they are superior to the actual English voice cast. Take Lanipator's Vegeta for example, it's an extremely obvious and somewhat forced imitation of Chris Sabat's Vegeta.