Why do people think the English Kai dub is so great?

[Tanooki Kuribo]

Sigh...it saddens me to see that it's Season 3 that people ALWAYS go back to when saying how bad the Z dub is, like that season is actually representative of it's quality as a whole. I mean, I know there was an Uncut/Remastered clip in there, but that was from Season 1, when the writers were still using large chunks of the original Ocean script, which of course, was the worst the series ever had in terms of scripting (yes, even worse than Season 3, which at least was funny in just how off-the-wall the dialogue was).

I mean heck, Season 3 didn't even have an actual translator on staff, so of course the dialogue was going to suck.

If it helps, I'll admit that the DBZ dub of the Boo arc is better than the earlier episodes. With that said though, it's still really, really shitty. The whole DBZ dub is such a cluster fuck of random quality. For example, during the Saiyan arc the characters are more comfortable with their voices. Then the Freeza episodes come along and all of a sudden everyone is an amature. Then from there on the voices evolve into what they were in the Saiyan arc. It's just a mess.

[ABED]

Sigh...it saddens me to see that it's Season 3 that people ALWAYS go back to when saying how bad the Z dub is, like that season is actually representative of it's quality as a whole. I mean, I know there was an Uncut/Remastered clip in there, but that was from Season 1, when the writers were still using large chunks of the original Ocean script, which of course, was the worst the series ever had in terms of scripting (yes, even worse than Season 3, which at least was funny in just how off-the-wall the dialogue was).

I mean heck, Season 3 didn't even have an actual translator on staff, so of course the dialogue was going to suck.

Season 3 is a good chunk of the show and the trend continues a good way into season 4. And NO, season 1 and 2 were not worse than 3.

The show got better but it's because they got closer to the original.

I never found the season 3 dialog funny, but your mileage obviously varies.

[Fionordequester]

And NO, season 1 and 2 were not worse than 3.

It was in terms of scripting, if you ask me. Season 3 actually made me LAUGH with how bad it was, while Seasons 1 and 2 just made me groan.

The show got better but it's because they got closer to the original.

I would argue that it also got better because it got better writers, improving VA performances, and of course, more great musicians (even though I thought Julius Dobos kind of emphasized the actiony elements of some scenes a little too much in the Buu Arc).

I never found the season 3 dialog funny, but your mileage obviously varies.

Well, I meant "funny" in a "it's so bad it's good kind of way". Seasons 1 and 2 felt like they were written by a hack with a very lame sense of humor while Season 3 felt like it was written by a hack with a very lame sense of humor...who also happened to be extremely eccentric, and perhaps even a little gay. I mean, I really want to know what kind of mind writes stuff like...

"Big suck! (Vegeta insulting Goku)"

"Don't piss off the God of love!"

"Can someone give me a countdown?!" (right before Frieza transforms)

"UGH! Strong power! Can't shake it!" (as Ginyu was holding Goku in a full nelson)

"I will metamorph into YOUR body...and fool ALL of your men!" (Ginyu saying his plan to Goku in the gayest way he could've possibly phrased it)

"UGH, shut up, please, I can't take it, please!" (Vegeta shouting this completely out of the blue, even though it had absolutely nothing to do with what Goku and co. were talking about)

And then of course, there's comedy gold like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IudQI-DwICM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7wyidD6mUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooCvpiBmz_0

Really, the only lines from Seasons 1 and 2 (that I remember anyways) that even come close to that level of strangeness is Nappa telling Vegeta that he "doesn't even HAVE worms!", Tien saying he would grow his arm back, and Frieza's whole "I want to caress my balls" thing. But Season 3 is fricken LITTERED with the stuff, hence why I find it so hilarious.

[WittyUsername]

Why do you have to use the word "gay" to describe how ridiculous something sounds?

[Fionordequester]

Why do you have to use the word "gay" to describe how ridiculous something sounds?

I'm not. I'm using "gay" to describe how gay the writer of Season 3 made some characters sound at times, such as Frieza's whole...

"We could've been soooo good together" to Goku, or "Alright big guy, whatever turns you ON!", again to Goku. There were times I was actually wondering if the writer was intentionally going out of his way to make the dialogue as gay as he could. Like what happened in a certain scene from Season 5...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV-6ej_Fn_U

[ABED]

It was in terms of scripting, if you ask me. Season 3 actually made me LAUGH with how bad it was, while Seasons 1 and 2 just made me groan.

Well, I groaned way more in season 3 and the first quarter or so of season 4. It wasn't one of those things where it was so bad that it came around to being good again. It was just terrible. I'm not sure why having a few awful lines in seasons 1 and 2 were bad, but having a crap load somehow made it better.
Performances did get better, but that comes with experience.

[Fionordequester]

It was in terms of scripting, if you ask me. Season 3 actually made me LAUGH with how bad it was, while Seasons 1 and 2 just made me groan.

Well, I groaned way more in season 3 and the first quarter or so of season 4. It wasn't one of those things where it was so bad that it came around to being good again. It was just terrible.
Performances did get better, but that comes with experience.

Aw, sorry to hear that ...

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think the reason some sub fans treat the whole dub like it was as bad as Season 3 is because Season 3 left such a horrible impression that it drove many people away from the dub, and they didn't bother to check in on it that frequently afterwords.

One must also take into account that they were sub fans. On top of the changes being bad, there was the added insult of there being changes, period. When I was a kid, I didn't realize that the English dub of DBZ was a dub, I thought the English dub was the actual show. Sure, even as a kid I cringed at some of the lines, but I just thought that's what the show was, so there was no anger factor, because I didn't know what I was watching was a radically-altered dub. When I found out that it was, in fact, a radically-altered dub...then I understood why so many sub fans were angry.

[Duo]

Here's the thing - even if folks are sometimes over focused on Season 3, isn't that content STILL on the orange bricks to this day?

It's valid to say the Buu arc, as well as many of the video games, were a ton better than what they were during season 3, but that doesn't change the damage done by how bastardized the fight between Goku and Freeza is and has been for the English audience at large.

[Gaffer Tape]

I think the reason some sub fans treat the whole dub like it was as bad as Season 3 is because Season 3 left such a horrible impression that it drove many people away from the dub, and they didn't bother to check in on it that frequently afterwords.

One must also take into account that they were sub fans. On top of the changes being bad, there was the added insult of there being changes, period. When I was a kid, I didn't realize that the English dub of DBZ was a dub, I thought the English dub was the actual show. Sure, even as a kid I cringed at some of the lines, but I just thought that's what the show was, so there was no anger factor, because I didn't know what I was watching was a radically-altered dub. When I found out that it was, in fact, a radically-altered dub...then I understood why so many sub fans were angry.

That's... somewhat true for me. Except I was a through and through dub fan when season 3 came out and, like you, had no idea it wasn't the real show (I mean, I knew it was a dub, but I didn't think the real thing was any different). But even I thought season 3 sucked when it came out. I still loved it and watched it, but I couldn't deny that the quality had dropped substantially. I didn't like the voices, I didn't like the music, I didn't like the dialogue. So you could say it drove me away. But it wasn't quite that. In between seasons I did become a fan of the original and spent that time familiarizing myself with the rest of the series. And when I came back for season 4, I found that it was just as bad... even worse, actually, now that I knew better. In a way, I dislike season 4 even more. I think it was about on par with the crap from 3, but now that I'd actually gotten into the real series, it was almost intolerable. And I remember how livid I was when they totally re-wrote the RRA arc in that flashback into that bizarre partnership between Dr. Gero and "General" Tao. And I think it was at that exact moment I lost all faith in them to actually know what the hell they were doing. So I made it through season 4, but I didn't come back after that. In fact, I so refused to watch the dub that I still hadn't seen most of the TV version of the Boo arc until I got the last Dragon Boxes ten years later!

[Fionordequester]

Personally, I thought it became great as early as Season 5. In fact, I even liked the FaulconerProductions soundtrack better at Seasons 5-7 then I did for the later seasons, because while those Seasons had some of the best tracks in the score, and even made good use of Mike and Scott's work, I felt like there were times where it was way too heavily techno, like this song here for the guy who shot Hercule and that old couple...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxHcoQ35rhI

...and all of Kid Buu's theme after the first minute or so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob0-nenFAxY

To this day, I'll never understand why Julius decided to compose Kid Buu the way he did. I mean, it started out so ominous, epic, and threatening for the first 40 seconds...then turns into this weird Dance Dance Revolution techno song that ruins the whole mood. I actually wish that maybe someday, one of the musicians would redo the song so that the first 40 seconds were expanded upon, and the feel from that part was kept. Maybe something like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmn0eUXoJI

But a bit more bombastic and intense. Of course, on the other hand, Julius also made this...

http://www.viddler.com/v/a9c946c2

And all of the other Buu themes that I love, so it's not like I'm saying he's a bad musician. Just that his style was a bit of a mixed bag.

[Metalwario64]

The Buu-arc's dub is better, but still has way too many alterations to the script, Sabat still sucks, and it has annoying Americanizations lingering, such as Goku saying "I'd rather talk about hotdogs", and I believe when they're eating at the tournament they mention some western foods (though I think an egg roll is mentioned), and still has Goku being overly heroic and intelligent ("What I represent can never be destroyed", and the unused until the Orange Bricks "Killing is wrong, and now you'll get to experience how it feels Buu!").

It's kinda 4kids-lite at that point.

[Fionordequester]

The Buu-arc's dub is better, but still has way too many alterations to the script, Sabat still sucks, and it has annoying Americanizations lingering, such as Goku saying "I'd rather talk about hotdogs", and I believe when they're eating at the tournament they mention some western foods (though I think an egg roll is mentioned), and still has Goku being overly heroic and intelligent ("What I represent can never be destroyed", and the unused until the Orange Bricks "Killing is wrong, and now you'll get to experience how it feels Buu!").

It's kinda 4kids-lite at that point.

But I LIKED heroic Goku! Not the whole "I am the hope of the universe" thing, but definitely the "What I represent can never be destroyed" thing!

[BurakkuForesuto]

IMHO, the Dragon Ball franchise never had a good dub. Not even the movies dubbed by Pioneer. I dunno, I just am not a fan of Ocean Studios for the most part. They can't make consistent dubs. Dubs like Gundam 0079, Char's Counterattack, Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex: Laughing Man/Individual Eleven, Black Lagoon and Death Note can be excellent, but dubs like DBZ, Gundam 00, Gundam Wing, Escaflowne are all inconsistent and vary in quality. The voice actors, who work with Ocean are good, but they suffer from inconsistent direction.

Funimation has script issues and this can hurt their dubs. Stuff like Evangelion has to be dubbed 1 to 1 or something can be lost. Granted, Evangelion's rebuild films like the series are up to interpretation, but even so, Funimation still didn't stick to the Japanese script all the way. They altered Mari's already non-existent personality by giving her F-Bombs.

As I like doing, I like comparing Funimation to LA firms because those firms try to stick to the Japanese script. Some LA dubs are as bad as Funiamtion dubs, but the majority are accurate-literal and rarely stray away from the JP script. As well as the studios themselves, the dubbing company, the now dead Bandai Entertainment put on dubs that are the true representations of the shows in English.

@B Yeah, Schemmel isn't perfect, but is much better than Nozawa. Nozawa sounds like an old woman, rather than a male. I know Nozawa is an old woman. Goku isn't supposed to sound like that.

@ABED No it isn't. It isn't exactly like the subs and is heavily reworded. That is a liberal dub. If something is not close to the subtitles' words, it is not an accurate dub. It is liberal. If it follows the exact words of almost every word in the subtitles, it is a literal dub. If it follows most of the subtitles, but does minor smoothing out, it is an accurate dub. Kai belongs to neither camp. It's no more accurate than any of their modern dubs and is not as accurate as Darker than Black or Baccano or even Mushishi.

[Fionordequester]

If it follows most of the subtitles, but does minor smoothing out, it is an accurate dub. Kai belongs to neither camp.

And from my experience, that kind of dub probably doesn't read or sound good, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Heck, I'm Let's Playing a game right now that suffers from that issue...

http://www.letsplayforum.net/showthread ... Saga-quot-!

...where the dialogue is grammatically correct, but everyone sounds like an android, with everyone saying stuff like...

The evil power of the monster is growing

or...

We must rebuild our town and we will do it.

The rumor is unfounded and stupid. Don't believe them.

Remember me? I am Pison. I have returned from the Dark World and have become Red Pison. This time it's your turn and you will die!

Basically, it's just dull to read, except in the case of the last one, where the matter-of-fact way it was stated actually makes the line even funnier than it was originally (basically, in the game, you just happen to run across some dude you killed previously, and he just spouts this off before attacking you). But unfortunately, almost the whole script is like that, except for some bits towards the end.

[ABED]

Gundam Wing are all inconsistent and vary in quality.

Really? I own the show and it's pretty darn close.

My issue with season 3 beyond points that I just mentioned is that it created a false impression for what the show is for those that stuck around, and there were many. It split the fanbase. They made new music that didn't go with the show, gave us subpar writing and a green voice cast. If they were behind the 8 ball already having to get a new voice cast at least use that time to retool and cast voices that are appropriate for their parts, and not give us terrible dialog.

No it isn't. It isn't exactly like the subs and is heavily reworded. That is a liberal dub. If something is not close to the subtitles' words, it is not an accurate dub. It is liberal. If it follows the exact words of almost every word in the subtitles, it is a literal dub. If it follows most of the subtitles, but does minor smoothing out, it is an accurate dub. Kai belongs to neither camp. It's no more accurate than any of their modern dubs and is not as accurate as Darker than Black or Baccano or even Mushishi.

I have watched the dub with subtitles on, it's very close. I would call it an accurate dub. There are some areas that are reworded, but that's mostly for mouth flaps, so I disagree with your assessment. It's like you're arguing it's as bad as DBZ's and nothing is further from the truth.

Regardless of the inconsistent direction from Ocean (not sure what you're referring to), the movies released by Pioneer were very close to the original.

[RocktheDragon]

I'm excited to experience the English Kai dub for the first time this summer. I'm currently watching Kai for the first time but in Japanese so I can't yet comment on it. I will say that I've seen people both for and against it I will be sure to ask my friend what he thinks of it since he is so partial to English dubs.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm excited to experience the English Kai dub for the first time this summer. I'm currently watching Kai for the first time but in Japanese so I can't yet comment on it. I will say that I've seen people both for and against it I will be sure to ask my friend what he thinks of it since he is so partial to English dubs.

Well, I don't mean to set your expectations high, but in my opinion, you're in for a treat. Especially when you get to the Freeza arc...I don't mean to suggest that everyone else was bad (that's not the case at all), but the performance that Chris Ayers gave as Freeza is often considered to be the best performance in the whole dub.

[WittyUsername]

I still think that Sean Schemmel gave the best performance in the dub.

[Duo]

I still think that Sean Schemmel gave the best performance in the dub.

I disagree with both you and the Black Paladin. I felt that Appule's recast/performance shined above all others.