Pre-Z Battle Powers, part one

[Hugo Boss]

Well, after putting a small thinking in this, I believe Daizenshuu could easily mix "true" BPs with "rested" BPs, but it's hard to have an agreement on which ones. The manga give more than a couple of examples for the ability to vary battle powers and sets a few of numbers that are later proven to be false, like "981, 1083 and 1220" or "a bunch of powerlevels over 1000 (being Piccolo the greatest one to follow)".

We could use the 408-1220/206-1083 relationship, but then the difference between Piccolo and Kuririn becomes much greater (1770-3500), suggesting Piccolo has a higher pool to access (maybe due to his meditation training?).

Then, using the same idea in Dragon Ball (Pre-Z), we have the same examples, but without numbers to compare, rather statements like "many times stronger", which could be "just decently stronger" not "multiplied times stronger", if you know what I mean. If Piccolo says he is "not putting even half of his power", we should agree he is far below 130? I don't think so.

In the other hand, "4000" Nappa having an neverending match with "over 8000" Goku could also mean that elite warriors' training give them advanced skills and reflexes in aerial combat, which was not Goku's specialty as well.

[Bussani]

Each to his own I suppose, but I'm firmly of the conviction that full power is trumped by one's full power blast

An example of this is when Vegeta is fighting Perfect Cell: after kicking him and finding it did absolutely nothing he says that he "put all of his power" into the kick and is amazed that it did nothing. But that kick was nothing compared to his Final Flash.

[RandomGuy96]

Each to his own I suppose, but I'm firmly of the conviction that full power is trumped by one's full power blast

An example of this is when Vegeta is fighting Perfect Cell: after kicking him and finding it did absolutely nothing he says that he "put all of his power" into the kick and is amazed that it did nothing. But that kick was nothing compared to his Final Flash.

Okay. Everybody knows that. What does it have to do with anything?

[dbgtFO]

Each to his own I suppose, but I'm firmly of the conviction that full power is trumped by one's full power blast

An example of this is when Vegeta is fighting Perfect Cell: after kicking him and finding it did absolutely nothing he says that he "put all of his power" into the kick and is amazed that it did nothing. But that kick was nothing compared to his Final Flash.

Yeah, I know that and as you can see Randomguy also agrees with that.
The point was, that he was ok with 2,800 being both Gohan's full power and the power of his Masenko, which I didn't agree with.

[RandomGuy96]

Well I also think that 924 would be both Goku's normal power and his Kamehameha. The guidebooks support this ti an extent by listing Goku's x20 Kamehameha as 60,000,000. I just don't think many pre-Raditz feats/statements and, more importantly, the way Vegeta treats battle powers later (not to mention what he says after Raditz is defeated) makes sense if everyone here was just walking around at full power all the time, and if Raditz knew their true powers.

Well, after putting a small thinking in this, I believe Daizenshuu could easily mix "true" BPs with "rested" BPs, but it's hard to have an agreement on which ones. The manga give more than a couple of examples for the ability to vary battle powers and sets a few of numbers that are later proven to be false, like "981, 1083 and 1220" or "a bunch of powerlevels over 1000 (being Piccolo the greatest one to follow)".

We could use the 408-1220/206-1083 relationship, but then the difference between Piccolo and Kuririn becomes much greater (1770-3500), suggesting Piccolo has a higher pool to access (maybe due to his meditation training?).

Then, using the same idea in Dragon Ball (Pre-Z), we have the same examples, but without numbers to compare, rather statements like "many times stronger", which could be "just decently stronger" not "multiplied times stronger", if you know what I mean. If Piccolo says he is "not putting even half of his power", we should agree he is far below 130? I don't think so.

981 was probably Gohan's full strength, actually.

The exact relationships don't have to be proportionate. For example, Goku for some reason suppressed himself to the exact same level, 5,000, in both the Saiyan and Namek arcs, despite being over ten times stronger in the latter.

I've been thinking about that. Bottom line is, you can't fit King Piccolo's Weekly Jump power with that statement. You just can't, since Roshi was 139. However, if anything, I think the magazine should be questioned here, not the manga, since Piccolo should know what what 50% of his power is. Freeza did, and not only could he not sense ki, but he had no way of knowing how numerically large his battle power was. Neither did Future 17, and people usually take that statement at face value. And he specifically said "putting out half of my power", implying it's not physical strength, just ki, which is measured in battle power.

But "may times stronger" to pre-Raditz characters might not mean the same thing to post-Raditz ones. Tambourine is called "many times stronger than Cymbal", yet the feats and statements that follow don't seem to fit him literally having several times the battle power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'd like to think Raditz's scouter would've noted Goku's power was well beyond 416 once he began fighting Raditz. I don't think Raditz wouldn't have cared, since he bothered to acknowledge the change in their power once they removed the weights. I just don't think 924 is accessible by Goku without the KameHameHa. What Vegeta said is just an acknowledgement of the events that happened. Gohan and Piccolo's most powerful attack defeated Raditz in the end. Vegeta's not there, so his interpretation can only mean so much.

[RandomGuy96]

I'd like to think Raditz's scouter would've noted Goku's power was well beyond 416 once he began fighting Raditz. I don't think Raditz wouldn't have cared, since he bothered to acknowledge the change in their power once they removed the weights. I just don't think 924 is accessible by Goku without the KameHameHa. What Vegeta said is just an acknowledgement of the events that happened. Gohan and Piccolo's most powerful attack defeated Raditz in the end. Vegeta's not there, so his interpretation can only mean so much.

Neither Nappa nor Vegeta noted any difference when Piccolo went from 1,220 to 3,500, yet they did when Gohan went from 981 to 2,800... they also never acknowledged any power-up from any of the heroes, even though they clearly did power up to fight the Saibamen and Nappa.

He specifically said that Piccolo and Goku, not their attacks, had "battle powers of a little over 1,000 at most". Not only would "a little over 1,000" not match Piccolo's attack killing 1,500 Raditz or Gohan being 1,307, but he should know about amplifying is ki judging by his Galick Gun, and that their battle powers wouldn't actually be around 1,000.

I just don't think it fits the story at all. Vegeta's exercising caution when he gets to Earth, stating that the Earthlings can freely hide their true battle powers, so scouters can't be relied on. He seems to fault Raditz for it. Why would he even know this if no one was suppressed when Raditz read them? Furthermore, why would they just be walking around at the very height of their strength when they never do that? In the Saiyan and Namek arcs, almost every fighter is read at a lower level before they start fighting: Piccolo's 1,220, Krillin's 1,083, Krillin's 1,500 on Namek, Goku's 5,000, that same level again on Namek...

In these instances, the heroes had no reason to be actively suppressing themselves. And even if they did, why wouldn't they suppress themselves even lower to look like total weaklings, like Gohan and Krillin do in the Namek arc?

Not to mention Ten being 250 doesn't match him stacking up against 334 weighted Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Neither Nappa nor Vegeta noted any difference when Piccolo went from 1,220 to 3,500, yet they did when Gohan went from 981 to 2,800... they also never acknowledged any power-up from any of the heroes, even though they clearly did power up to fight the Saibamen and Nappa.

They took their scouters off. Vegeta only decided to pick his back up when they started sensing Goku.

He specifically said that Piccolo and Goku, not their attacks, had "battle powers of a little over 1,000 at most". Not only would "a little over 1,000" not match Piccolo's attack killing 1,500 Raditz or Gohan being 1,307, but he should know about amplifying is ki judging by his Galick Gun, and that their battle powers wouldn't actually be around 1,000.

Yeah, but again, Vegeta wasn't there. He'd only have a minimum understanding of why their Battle Powers would even be over 1,000 anyway. He knew they could change their powers, but he'd only have that info based on what actually took place. From what took place, their powers only were close or above 1,000 when they were using special attacks. The only exception is Gohan.

[RandomGuy96]

Neither Nappa nor Vegeta noted any difference when Piccolo went from 1,220 to 3,500, yet they did when Gohan went from 981 to 2,800... they also never acknowledged any power-up from any of the heroes, even though they clearly did power up to fight the Saibamen and Nappa.

They took their scouters off. Vegeta only decided to pick his back up when they started sensing Goku.

He specifically said that Piccolo and Goku, not their attacks, had "battle powers of a little over 1,000 at most". Not only would "a little over 1,000" not match Piccolo's attack killing 1,500 Raditz or Gohan being 1,307, but he should know about amplifying is ki judging by his Galick Gun, and that their battle powers wouldn't actually be around 1,000.

Yeah, but again, Vegeta wasn't there. He'd only have a minimum understanding of why their Battle Powers would even be over 1,000 anyway. He knew they could change their powers, but he'd only have that info based on what actually took place. From what took place, their powers only were close or above 1,000 when they were using special attacks. The only exception is Gohan.

Even still, he should notice now on his scouter that everyone is waaaay higher than they were when he last read them, as a result of powering up to fight. Piccolo got almost three times stronger. But he doesn't say a thing. I don't think Raditz would either, nor would he care if Goku's was read at 924 with the Kamehameha and just stayed there for the rest of the fight.

So you're saying he just made a random lucky guess that they could freely alter their battle powers? I don't think that fits, in or out of universe. He's under the impression that the Earthlings hide their ki whenever they want. Why would he think this if no one has demonstrated that ability yet? Remember, Vegeta the super-elite space thug still has no concept of suppressing his power. He shouldn't be impressed by being able to amplify it with special attacks either, because both he and Nappa appear to be able to do that.

And would Vegeta really consider an attack over 1,500 to be "a little over 1,000 at most"? Or even a power level of 1,307?

[dbgtFO]

And would Vegeta really consider an attack over 1,500 to be "a little over 1,000 at most"? Or even a power level of 1,307?

No attack during the Raditz battle was confirmed higher than 1,330, so I don't know where you get over 1,500 from.
We can't say for sure if it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to consider it as such and I don't have a problem with him thinking like that. To him it would be pointless anyway.

That said I really do see where you're coming from with regards to rest of your post, as I used to think the same.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Even still, he should notice now on his scouter that everyone is waaaay higher than they were when he last read them, as a result of powering up to fight. Piccolo got almost three times stronger. But he doesn't say a thing. I don't think Raditz would either, nor would he care if Goku's was read at 924 with the Kamehameha and just stayed there for the rest of the fight.

I doubt he'd care, honestly. Goku and his new huge Battle Power was the main focus at that point. The only one who'd be well above their last power rating is Piccolo, since Gohan was calm and Krillin was incapacitated.

So you're saying he just made a random lucky guess that they could freely alter their battle powers? I don't think that fits, in or out of universe. He's under the impression that the Earthlings hide their ki whenever they want. Why would he think this if no one has demonstrated that ability yet? Remember, Vegeta the super-elite space thug still has no concept of suppressing his power. He shouldn't be impressed by being able to amplify it with special attacks either, because both he and Nappa appear to be able to do that.

What else does he have to go on? Everything he'd be hearing would be from Raditz, who makes note of Goku and Piccolo's power being concentrated into one point. Not really a guess--just going off of Raditz's analysis of what was taking place. Well, unless they were able to get readings from the battle on their own scouters, which I doubt. Vegeta and Nappa pretty much came to the conclusion that the scouter isn't reliable because Raditz placed too much emphasis on it and lost for that reason.

Actually, when you think about it, Vegeta is aware of their ability to manipulate their power, but he only becomes fully aware when Gohan uses his Masenko.

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

981 to 2,800 is pretty damn drastic.

[RandomGuy96]

And would Vegeta really consider an attack over 1,500 to be "a little over 1,000 at most"? Or even a power level of 1,307?

No attack during the Raditz battle was confirmed higher than 1,330, so I don't know where you get over 1,500 from.
We can't say for sure if it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to consider it as such and I don't have a problem with him thinking like that. To him it would be pointless anyway.

That said I really do see where you're coming from with regards to rest of your post, as I used to think the same.

The attack killed Raditz and he was 1,500. Though the highest level in that fight demonstrated by the heroes was the anime saying Piccolo's attack reached 1,440. But would Vegeta consider THAT to only be a little above 1,000? I don't know of many who would. And more to the point, Vegeta is referring to a system where a x1.33 difference means total stompage. Enraged Gohan was 1,307. I doubt that'd only be a little over 1,000 to someone like him.

Vegeta thinks that they're a little over a thousand at the absolute most also. If he is just judging this attacks, he should know that they're at the absolute MINIMUM well over 1,000.

[RandomGuy96]

And would Vegeta really consider an attack over 1,500 to be "a little over 1,000 at most"? Or even a power level of 1,307?

No attack during the Raditz battle was confirmed higher than 1,330, so I don't know where you get over 1,500 from.
We can't say for sure if it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to consider it as such and I don't have a problem with him thinking like that. To him it would be pointless anyway.

That said I really do see where you're coming from with regards to rest of your post, as I used to think the same.

The attack killed Raditz and he was 1,500. Though the highest level in that fight demonstrated by the heroes was the anime saying Piccolo's attack reached 1,440. But would Vegeta consider THAT to only be a little above 1,000? I don't know of many who would. And more to the point, Vegeta is referring to a system where a x1.33 difference means total stompage. Enraged Gohan was 1,307. I doubt that'd only be a little over 1,000 to someone like him.

Vegeta thinks that they're a little over a thousand at the absolute most also. If he is just judging this attacks, he should know that they're at the absolute MINIMUM well over 1,000.

@Turlast: I don't think you understand. Vegeta, if Goku and Piccolo really were only 408 and 416, saw nothing new in that fight. He can amplify his ki, and even he can't, no one would get "they can freely change their battle powers to look lower than they are" from what Raditz specifically calls concentrating ki into a single point. Yet when Vegeta arrives on Earth, he's fully expecting everyone to be suppressed to a lower battle power than this max. Remember, Vegeta has never seen this ability from anyone outside of Earth. Why would he even think it is possible if he has never seen it?

So he cares about a jump from 981 to 2,800 but not 1,220 to 3,500? And that's proof of what exactly? Yeah, I don't buy it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

@Turlast: I don't think you understand. Vegeta, if Goku and Piccolo really were only 408 and 416, saw nothing new in that fight. He can amplify his ki, and even he can't, no one would get "they can freely change their battle powers to look lower than they are" from what Raditz specifically calls concentrating ki into a single point. Yet when Vegeta arrives on Earth, he's fully expecting everyone to be suppressed to a lower battle power than this max. Remember, Vegeta has never seen this ability from anyone outside of Earth. Why would he even think it is possible if he has never seen it?

No, I do understand. The problem is what Vegeta's suggesting the earthlings are capable of isn't made clear within the story itself. Goku and Piccolo's power changed a good amount when they took their weights off, but Vegeta wouldn't have any idea their weighted clothes would be why their levels increased. That's something new and he could be referring to that. Goku and Piccolo naturally being way above 408/416 requires us to throw in something like Raditz ignoring it or the power surge not being recognized by the scouter just because. If Gohan's 710 Battle Power can alert the scouter, there's no reason why both Goku and Piccolo fighting couldn't at least get some reaction from it.

Also, Gohan's Masenko is an extension of Raditz's analysis about concentrated attacks increasing the users power--which Vegeta confirms when Gohan uses the Masenko and after his power seemingly drops from using it.

There's no getting around the fact that these huge power-up's were never noted until they started using Chi-attacks. Obviously what Vegeta is referring to directly conflicts with what we're shown, but that's an inconsistency. Furthermore, the only ones over 1,000 would be Piccolo and Gohan, since Goku's obviously less than that.

So he cares about a jump from 981 to 2,800 but not 1,220 to 3,500? And that's proof of what exactly? Yeah, I don't buy it.

He never measured Piccolo's power. There was never a situation for him to distinguish the difference between Piccolo's powers at that point. He specifically used the scouter to measure Goku.

[Bussani]

What does it have to do with anything?

Uh, nothing, I guess...? I was just agreeing with him. Sorry if I said something useless.

[miguelnuva1]

Raditz was 1200 wasn't he? Been seeing people say he was 1500?

[Bussani]

Raditz was 1200 wasn't he? Been seeing people say he was 1500?

People used to think so because the Saibaimen had battle powers of 1'200 and were said to rival Raditz. However, Toriyama came out and said that Raditz's battle power was higher than theirs, and the seventh Daizenshuu pegs him at 1'500.

[RandomGuy96]

No, I do understand. The problem is what Vegeta's suggesting the earthlings are capable of isn't made clear within the story itself. Goku and Piccolo's power changed a good amount when they took their weights off, but Vegeta wouldn't have any idea their weighted clothes would be why their levels increased. That's something new and he could be referring to that. Goku and Piccolo naturally being way above 408/416 requires us to throw in something like Raditz ignoring it or the power surge not being recognized by the scouter just because. If Gohan's 710 Battle Power can alert the scouter, there's no reason why both Goku and Piccolo fighting couldn't at least get some reaction from it.

Yeah, it is. They can hide their battle powers, so scouters don't matter.

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Vegeta here is aware that Goku could very well be higher than 5,000. It does not sound like he's referring to Goku just being able to launch attacks that are strong. If that was what he was saying, why not say "What's more, everyone can increase their battle powers with especially powerful attacks..."? He refers to whatever Goku is doing as something "the people here" and they alone are capable of doing.

Another fun little fact: Raditz is surprised when Gohan shoots to 1,307.

Chapter: 203 (DBZ , P4.1, P8.3, P9.4
Context: Gohan gets extremely mad as Raditz torments Goku, powering up, but this power goes away quickly
Raditz: “Ba…ba…battle power 1,307?! [ ] N... now his battle power is only 1. It... it completely changes with his em... emotions…[ ] Only a child?! You’re joking! The brat has a higher battle power than you!"

He at first doesn't believe that the battle power of Gohan is higher than Goku's (you're joking!) and treats it as a shock. Yet he read the kid at 710 earlier...

Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P6.4
Raditz: “It can't be... there absolutely has to be some mistake! It's impossible for him to have a battle power of 710 at such a young age...!!"

Probably doesn't mean anything, just thought it should be noted.

Again, do you think the story makes more sense that way? Vegeta was completely wrong and unaware of their abilities to suppress ki, and just got that right by luck? Because that doesn't match what he says about the ability in the Namek arc. If he was monitoring the Raditz fight, he should also be aware that they were wearing weighted clothing, and shows no surprise when Piccolo shoots from 1,220 to waaaaaay over that when he kills a Saibaman despite him not changing clothes.

Also, Gohan's Masenko is an extension of Raditz's analysis about concentrated attacks increasing the users power--which Vegeta confirms when Gohan uses the Masenko and after his power seemingly drops from using it.

Irrelevant. Vegeta knew that the Earthlings could make their power lower than it would appear to be, which he didn't know about previously. This is not related to their ability to fire blasts stronger than their regular power, which he is aware of and can do himself.

He never measured Piccolo's power. There was never a situation for him to distinguish the difference between Piccolo's powers at that point. He specifically used the scouter to measure Goku.

But why wouldn't he? He said himself that they can change their battle powers. Why wouldn't he be interested in scanning him? It would take one push of a button and confirm his supsiscions.

There's no getting around the fact that these huge power-up's were never noted until they started using Chi-attacks. Obviously what Vegeta is referring to directly conflicts with what we're shown, but that's an inconsistency. Furthermore, the only ones over 1,000 would be Piccolo and Gohan, since Goku's obviously less than that.

I'm not saying my theory is completely without holes, but I just think it makes more sense than the alternative, since for that to work you have to discard Weekly Jump, Vegeta's statement after Raditz dies, the power levels everyone has when not fighting, Vegeta immediately knowing about suppression when he arrives, almost every single power statement or feat in the King Piccolo and 23rd Budokai arcs... there's probably still more that I'm missing.

So are you just admitting that Vegeta's statement after Raditz dies completely contradicts Goku and Piccolo's levels? Because it seems like you're still trying to defend it in that last sentence. Anyway, why would 1,307 and 1,440 be "a little over a thousand at most" for Vegeta? Someone with one of those power levels could immediately stomp someone with a power level of 1,000. Do you think he'd describe himself as "a little stronger than Cui at most" after his zenkai on Earth? The statement makes absolutely no sense if he's just referring to Gohan and Piccolo, since they wouldn't be "a little over a thousand at most", they'd be far over a thousand at a minimum. Finally, Vegeta should know better than to say those are their actual battle powers if he's just talking about attacks.

[dbgtFO]

The attack killed Raditz and he was 1,500. Though the highest level in that fight demonstrated by the heroes was the anime saying Piccolo's attack reached 1,440. But would Vegeta consider THAT to only be a little above 1,000? I don't know of many who would. And more to the point, Vegeta is referring to a system where a x1.33 difference means total stompage. Enraged Gohan was 1,307. I doubt that'd only be a little over 1,000 to someone like him.

Vegeta thinks that they're a little over a thousand at the absolute most also. If he is just judging this attacks, he should know that they're at the absolute MINIMUM well over 1,000.

Yes going by normal logic, slightly over 1,000 gives the impression, they shouldn't be over 1,300, but still I just don't see the problem with Vegeta taking that stance, as to him it's nothing and he's saying it to mock Raditz anyway.
I just don't think, I should take that as evidence of their powers without ki blasts actually being about 1,000.

[kuartus4]

Raditz was 1200 wasn't he? Been seeing people say he was 1500?

People used to think so because the Saibaimen had battle powers of 1'200 and were said to rival Raditz. However, Toriyama came out and said that Raditz's battle power was higher than theirs, and the seventh Daizenshuu pegs him at 1'500.

1500 for Raditz makes no sense. He dodged Piccolo's SBC which had a PL of 1330, and was even damaged by it:

Spoiler:

1260 is probably a more reasonable PL for Raditz.