Should Toriyama Have Even Bothered With Cell?

[orbweaver]

The part that bugged me with Cell is just that the whole arc was too freaking long.

And it was a bit anticlimactic after Frieza - who to me was nearly a perfect villain. I will be honest and say I'm totally Team Frieza so I'm biased. Frieza was so menacing, creepy, and dark. Everyone had a personal stake with Frieza whereas by comparison Cell was kind of a generic villain.

What *was* great about Cell was the way that Cell somehow managed to get everyone's basic traits to work against that person. We saw a lot of character development with the major characters. But it could've been better and more intense.

[Retan]

I agree Android/Cell Saga was pretty boring, but the more DBZ the better from my point of view.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Again, I disagree here, I find Cell saga the most engaging and retained the most depth in the story line next to Freeza. Its easy to argue that Cell was the second most compelling villain in the series. I don't see how he can be any worse than Majin Buu when he actually had a backstory, personality, ambition, realistic creation and balanced abilities. The only point where cell disappoints was in his second form where all he did was whine and boast; but imperfect and Perfect cell were excellent characters. They were the only villains that actually paralleled the Z-senshi and actually forced them to strategize. Cell was also unpredictable as opposed to being stupidly overpowered like Kid Buu was especially after his reform and major zenkai boost.

If anything ruined the saga, it was Gohan being OP, contradictory and static, the Kid Buu of the Arc. Did the least yet is the strongest.

[Retan]

I think it has more to do with 17 and 18 sucking so bad, that they came up with Cell on the spot who wasn't much better, type feel to it.

[ABED]

I think it has more to do with 17 and 18 sucking so bad, that they came up with Cell on the spot who wasn't much better, type feel to it.

Cell was leagues better than 17 and 18. For one, cooler design, wasn't some dumb kid, and at least in the beginning wasn't the typical "I'm the strongest there is!"

[Kid Buu]

Again, I disagree here, I find Cell saga the most engaging and retained the most depth in the story line next to Freeza. Its easy to argue that Cell was the second most compelling villain in the series. I don't see how he can be any worse than Majin Buu when he actually had a backstory, personality, ambition, realistic creation and balanced abilities. The only point where cell disappoints was in his second form where all he did was whine and boast; but imperfect and Perfect cell were excellent characters. They were the only villains that actually paralleled the Z-senshi and actually forced them to strategize. Cell was also unpredictable as opposed to being stupidly overpowered like Kid Buu was especially after his reform and major zenkai boost.

If anything ruined the saga, it was Gohan being OP, contradictory and static, the Kid Buu of the Arc. Did the least yet is the strongest.

Despite my username, I agree that Kid Buu's overpoweredness was annoying. Vegeta is my favourite big bad in the Z era because he didn't just shrug off injuries; he registered pain. Even though the wounds kept making things more difficult for him he still kept coming for you, giving a feel of progression during the fight. With Majin Buu and to a lesser extent Cell, it never really seemed that they were suffering due to their constant regeneration.

[Retan]

I was just responding to the cell has a 'great backstory' crap people keep talking about which was nothing all that interesting to me.

I think it has more to do with 17 and 18 sucking so bad, that they came up with Cell on the spot who wasn't much better, type feel to it.

Cell was leagues better than 17 and 18. For one, cooler design, wasn't some dumb kid, and at least in the beginning wasn't the typical "I'm the strongest there is!"

No Cell was the "I'll show you... someday."


Look Cell was a great horror show, and looked cool, but as for a DBZ bad guy, he didn't do it for me. And like some people said the saga was was too long, with it not really going anywhere, a lot like the Buu saga, but I like the buu saga, because it didn't take itself so seriously, but maybe that's what you like about the Cell Saga and that's fine too. Your probably right I shouldn't have said that Cell wasn't a lot better the 17 and 18 cause he was, but those two ruined it for me so badly that I can't see a difference between the Android and Cell sagas and I don't think I'm supposed to honestly.

[Kid Buu]

16/17/18 are my least favourite villains in the entire manga actually.

[ABED]

No Cell was the "I'll show you... someday."
Look Cell was a great horror show, and looked cool, but as for a DBZ bad guy, he didn't do it for me. And like some people said the saga was was too long, with it not really going anywhere, a lot like the Buu saga, but I like the buu saga, because it didn't take itself so seriously, but maybe that's what you like about the Cell Saga and that's fine too. Your probably right I shouldn't have said that Cell wasn't a lot better the 17 and 18 cause he was, but those two ruined it for me so badly that I can't see a difference between the Android and Cell sagas and I don't think I'm supposed to honestly.

Not sure what the first part means.

It's not two sagas/arc. It's all one arc leading to Cell. Regardless of whether Toriyama meant for it to lead to him at the outset, it was leading to him. Not sure what you mean by "it not really going anywhere", it went to Cell who wanted to have the greatest power in the universe. My problem with the Buu arc is the comedy. It's fine to have comedy, but you don't undercut the villain, it's one of the reasons IM3 is disappointing, comedy in inappropriate places. What about the cyborgs ruined the arc so badly?

16/17/18 are my least favourite villains in the entire manga actually.

Not sure they qualify as villains.

[Retan]

OMG!!

I know it's not a two saga arc. And yes the cyborgs were the worst 'Villians' in the series, and the only reason your not sure if they were Villians is because they weren't very good villians, taking a car, stopping to get better clothes, one wearing a gun, and the one most set on killing Goku is a pacifist??! And it took forever, it felt like I was watching a wild goose chase for some forty episodes and not a fun one at that!! I wish toriyama's editor hadn't spoken up, as I actually prefered 19 and 20 to these three. Cell lead nowhere sorry if you felt differently. The Buu saga was much better IMHO then the android/Cell Saga, because of the comedy.

[ABED]

OMG!!

I know it's not a two saga arc. And yes the cyborgs were the worst 'Villians' in the series, and the only reason your not sure if they were Villians is because they weren't very good villians, taking a car, stopping to get better clothes, one wearing a gun, and the one most set on killing Goku is a pacifist??! And it took forever, it felt like I was watching a wild goose chase for some forty episodes and not a fun one at that!! I wish toriyama's editor hadn't spoken up, as I actually prefered 19 and 20 to these three. Cell lead nowhere sorry if you felt differently. The Buu saga was much better IMHO then the android/Cell Saga, because of the comedy.

You seem really upset. Not my intention.

They weren't villains, and that was the point. The only one they were out to get was Goku, and only fought the Z Team when they were attacked. 16 isn't a pacifist, he was going to kill Goku, and is willing to fight to protect people and things he cared about. I think you missed the entire point of those three. They were there to show that the timeline had drastically changed things.

The Buu arc is far larger than the Cell arc.

You still haven't explained why you feel Cell went nowhere.

[Retan]

Well can you tell me were Cell led the series?

And yes they were to villians, wanting to kill the protector of the world is what villians do, is Lex Luthor not a villian just because he only want's Superman dead?


But sorry I gotta little testy, was not my intention.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not sure. On one hand, Cell is a fucking awful and boring villain. On the other, the androids were even worse. I think the best thing to do would be to keep Cell more like his Imperfect form in both personality and appearance throughout the arc.

I gotta agree with the Cell arc really ruining the logical progression and flow of the series. First the enemies are regular criminals and wild animals, then super human martial artists, then a private army, then said private army's personal team of super villains, then demons led by Earth's local Satan, then an even stronger reincarnation of said demon king, then ruthless alien planetary conquerors, the strongest of which can destroy a planet, then even more ruthless galactic alien conquerors to whom the last guys were just henchmen, the strongest of which can casually destroy planets, then for some reason we go back to Earth and get a local story where they just fight robots/cyborgs (like in the pre-Raditz arcs), then more appropriately they fight an ancient god eating demon who ravaged the universe and has the Lord of Worlds scared, and whose second weakest form is still strong enough to output enough energy to destroy the Earth 416,666 times over in one blast without even using full strength.

[Kid Buu]

Honestly I don't think the 23rd Budokai really advances the series either too be honest, unless you count Goku marrying Chichi as something special. In the arc Goku's win the tournament (despite basically winning the 22nd Budokai anyway) and beats Piccolo (he beat a Piccolo last arc). If anything, Goku killing Piccolo Daimao felt like DB's climax, where as the whole 23rd Budokai just felt like the falling action of being just a bunch of cool fights.

[Insertclevername]

It definitely gave closure to that era of the story, which I feel is needed in progressing it. It allowed it to start somewhere fresh in the Saiyan arc.

[TheGmGoken]

I mean with Gero's revenge it should of came before Saiyan arc or should had been a Toei filler arc instead of Garlic. I mean honestly Cyborg arc sounds fillerish and would had been good filler or even a movie. But after Freeza and only knowledge of Saiyan arc I don't see how Cyborgs could compete with SSJ. But it made great development for Goku and Vegeta. So yea I'm glad Toriyama made it. Just he executed it wrong. I would had liked an arc with Freeza family battling Zetto Senshi. Wound be perfect and you can basically usr the same plot elements from Cyborg arc.

Trunks warn bout Freexa clan taking over universe
Everyone train
Vegeta saves Goku from death(virus or too many attackers. )
Vegeta get beaten in SSJ
Piccolo merges.
Piccolo meets Cold
Cold kicks ass
Room of Time
Gohan does he rage
Goku dies
Gohan feels he failed
Gohan turns SSJ2
Goku pass the torch
Same thing happens with Gohan slacking off.

[RandomGuy96]

Honestly I don't think the 23rd Budokai really advances the series either too be honest, unless you count Goku marrying Chichi as something special. In the arc Goku's win the tournament (despite basically winning the 22nd Budokai anyway) and beats Piccolo (he beat a Piccolo last arc). If anything, Goku killing Piccolo Daimao felt like DB's climax, where as the whole 23rd Budokai just felt like the falling action of being just a bunch of cool fights.

Can DB, as a series, even be said to have a climax? It's arc based, and there are no real overarching plot points that are solved. Defeating Majin Buu was technically the ultimate end of Dragon Ball, but I don't think it can be called a "climax" because defeating Buu wasn't built up more than defeating any other villain. Well... actually it was, significantly so, but only in the one story arc, and only because that arc was really long. Oh, and because Majin Buu is like three different villains.

[Kid Buu]

Overall my main change of this arc is that I'd have Cell stick to Gero's idea of gaining revenge of Goku, and have Goku be the hero of the arc. It wouldn't be Cell holding back, that power he used against Goku in the Cell Games would be his full power. Cell would have the slight advantage until Goku uses the Warp Kamehameha, which gives Goku the the slight advantage. Finally I'd keep the Imperfect Cell self-destruct, mainly because I want Goku to die in this arc.

I guess my only problem with this is that it would remove Vegeta's character arc of acknowledging his son. I suppose we could have Semi Cell return without a Zenkai, kill Trunks with a surprise Kienzen, and then Vegeta kills him.

Oh, and I'd make Gohan beat Gotenks Buu in the Buu arc for those complaining I shafted Gohan here.

[Cipher]

Honestly I don't think the 23rd Budokai really advances the series either too be honest, unless you count Goku marrying Chichi as something special. In the arc Goku's win the tournament (despite basically winning the 22nd Budokai anyway) and beats Piccolo (he beat a Piccolo last arc). If anything, Goku killing Piccolo Daimao felt like DB's climax, where as the whole 23rd Budokai just felt like the falling action of being just a bunch of cool fights.

Woah. Do not agree at all. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai was an incredibly clever cap to everything that had come before, not only visibly upping the abilities of everyone in the series, but pitting Goku in his third attempt at the championship (after losing once and drawing/losing the second time) against the biggest threat the series had yet seen, which also tied into the previous arc and Goku's reason for his latest round of training in the first place. He gets to save the world and win the tournament (which, hilariously, has ceased to mean anything to anyone but him, as he's still doggedly going after this little title he's far outgrown) at the same time. That reveal that, after Piccolo has blown up the ring and is outright trying to kill Goku, Goku's still trying to not get a ring-out?

It's great. Its seriously great. It's super-duper good. It would have been a fine ending for the series, though it would have been a much different, less memorable series for it.

Can DB, as a series, even be said to have a climax? It's arc based, and there are no real overarching plot points that are solved. Defeating Majin Buu was technically the ultimate end of Dragon Ball, but I don't think it can be called a "climax" because defeating Buu wasn't built up more than defeating any other villain. Well... actually it was, significantly so, but only in the one story arc, and only because that arc was really long. Oh, and because Majin Buu is like three different villains.

I'd say it can have, or could have had, a climax (or what you're really getting at, which is a climax that treats everything before it as rising action). The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and the Namek arcs were both effectively that. There was a steady build-up to each, and each spanned enough of the series thematically to have been an effective cap to everything that came before. And, actually, had the Cell arc not come in between, the Boo arc could have done this more effectively as well. As it is, the Cell arc is quite stand-alone, making the Boo arc, for all its escalation and nice end-game feelings, feel more stand-alone as well. After that, the best you're going to get is something like the Boo arc went for, or like the Evil Dragons arc in GT, which also felt self-contained despite its homages and excellent ending.

[Kid Buu]

Woah. Do not agree at all. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai was an incredibly clever cap to everything that had come before, not only visibly upping the abilities of everyone in the series, but pitting Goku in his third attempt at the championship (after losing once and drawing/losing the second time) against the biggest threat the series had yet seen, which also tied into the previous arc and Goku's reason for his latest round of training in the first place. He gets to save the world and win the tournament (which, hilariously, has ceased to mean anything to him, as he's still doggedly after this little title he's far outgrown) at the same time. That reveal that, after Piccolo has blown up the ring and is outright trying to kill Goku, Goku's still trying to not get a ring-out?

It's great. Its seriously great. It's super-duper good. It would have been a fine ending for the series, though it would have been a much different, less memorable series for it.

Well you can't spell "Whoa" right so you're wrong.

Just kidding, that's an interesting perspective on things. I've actually been re-reading this arc quite a bit in the past few days (did the entire first round, hence the new avatar), and it's been more enjoyable then when I read it last time. So I'll get back to you on this when I finish reading. I'll keep what you said in mind.