Why do some people want to make DB Dark and Gritty?

[Bullza]

^^^
Oh you live in Birmingham, you mustn't live that far from me then.

[thatdbzguy]

I agree that Fat Buu wasn't really that good a villain, but I actually enjoyed Super Buu (pre-Z fighter absorptions) quite a bit.

[Kid Buu]

I agree, vanilla Super Buu is really creepy, especially the scene where he's waiting for Gotenks at Kami's lookout.

^^^
Oh you live in Birmingham, you mustn't live that far from me then.

I used to live there, now I live in America.

[DonZ]

I agree that Fat Buu wasn't really that good a villain, but I actually enjoyed Super Buu (pre-Z fighter absorptions) quite a bit.

Wow!
i'm really surprised you didn't mention Cell in your post. good.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Fat Buu is actually a pretty effective villain, because he has the whole "psychopathic manchild" personality.

[Cipher]

I love the uneven tone in the Buu saga; it's one of the aspects of that particular arc that I've grown to appreciate the more I look back at it. It really was a fitting send off to the series in that sense.

Agreeeeeeeeed. Pairing the most dire, climactic plot with an absolutely whimsical tone was on point. The Boo arc is fantastic, and it does indeed shift between genuine hilarity and true horror on a dime.

On topic, there really was an era in which Toei, at least, seemed to be keen to push the series as a very serious action property, if you look at a lot of the merchandise and promotional material (even the movies) released around the original airing of the Cell arc. But that shouldn't be the enduring image of the series, nor was it really even true to what the series was at the time (still pretty silly).

[hleV]

I personally prefer the more serious and less for-children side of DB, so while I wouldn't say I want DB to be dark (as in, for really bad things to happen, like mass genocide/permanent damage), but I don't want it very silly neither. But then some silliness is always good, which puts Boo arc somewhat above Cell arc in my book.

[Mystic Buu]

I agree that Fat Buu wasn't really that good a villain, but I actually enjoyed Super Buu (pre-Z fighter absorptions) quite a bit.

Yeah,me too.When he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo,he was too smart and I didn't like it.Especially when he absorbed Gohan.And Kid Buu was a maniacal beast.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I really couldn't sit through the corniness BoG was for most of the movie, and that excluding the "God" transformation that just didnt feel like Dragonball at all let alone Z. I don't know what they were thinking.... Personally I prefer the more serious, struggling moments in DBZ as opposed to its rather hackneyed goofy moments. DBZ doesnt need to get Elfen-Lied dark, it just needs to take itself more seriously when a villain appears. The casual bits are for when they die or before they show.

Writting wise, I feel like the only time the plot gets anywhere in this series is when the story is dark and gritty. Its identified and presented as the "mature" version of the original dragonball. As I said before the innocent humour style of Dragonball doesnt translate over because of the deeper characterizations and deeper expositions established in the story. It isnt a happy go-lucky adventure anymore, its a test-your-limits action/thriller show now. The audience in the fanbase are also older and expect more expansion of the characters they like. Thats why the comedy style in BoG failed so many people who saw it. It felt out of place and dragging, DBZ prior to it was gotten edgier and unpredictable, the immaturity in the larger part of BoG was just patronizing to those expecting specific the depth we had in the last arcs. We expected to see Beerus terrorizing the Earth people were waiting for what Goku would do about it. We were expecting Goku to get the beating of his life in this film. We wanted to see an incarnation of the series that reflects our interests now. This though could also be because of Naruto and Bleach introducing darker and edgier themes to DBZ fans at a more consistant level.

In order for the humour to properly mesh with the series direction now, it has to be relevant to what we already expect of the characters. Vegeta's funnier when his personality is exaggerated, when he argues with Goku its funny. Its part of his characterization. Gotenks is arguably funny because its a reflection of his character that also simultaiously pushes the plot through it. The problem with BoG was that the humour felt forced and a lot of characters were behaving out of their roles, it felt like they were either mocking themselves rather. The reason why Beerus was funny was because it was an aspect of his character NOT his situation thus the consistancy is what makes it a gag.

I agree that Fat Buu wasn't really that good a villain, but I actually enjoyed Super Buu (pre-Z fighter absorptions) quite a bit. Yeah,me too.When he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo,he was too smart and I didn't like it.Kid Buu was a maniacal beast.

You preferred it when he was whining and screaming the entire time about how much he was losing? He was at his worst in his fight with Vwgito because that was all he did as I saw it. He fought exactly like Vegeta. Talks big first then loses his mind when it doesnt work. It was terrible. I really don't see what the appeal is to people regardong 0.5 dimentional screaming, mindless villains who act like toddlers that dont get their way. Or the OP ones that just like to destroy because they can. On in this franchise do people actually like that drivel.

Gohan getting drunk and shooting his girlfriend isnt funny. The subject itself isnt even funny.
DBZ's humour doesnt not come from the plot, it comes from how the characters interact within the plot. The complete opposite of Dragonball.

Because those people don't know what DB really is... a lighthearted show.

In shows like DBZ when the plot is too laid back and casual a lot of lazy plotholes usually follow.

[ABED]

I really don't see what the appeal is to people regardong 0.5 dimentional screaming, mindless villains who act like toddlers that dont get their way.

It's better than having the villain be cooler and smarter than the hero.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I really don't see what the appeal is to people regardong 0.5 dimentional screaming, mindless villains who act like toddlers that dont get their way.

It's better than having the villain be cooler and smarter than the hero.

Why? When the villain shows hes competant it gives the hero a harder time and forces them to change their strategy. When the villain is an idiot character with OP powers and nothing else, it just makes every feat they take feel one-sided and implausable. Thats how I felt with Fat Buu.

[ABED]

I really don't see what the appeal is to people regardong 0.5 dimentional screaming, mindless villains who act like toddlers that dont get their way.

It's better than having the villain be cooler and smarter than the hero.

Why? When the villain shows hes competant it gives the hero a harder time and forces them to change their strategy. When the villain is an idiot character with OP powers and nothing else, it just makes every feat they take feel one-sided and implausable. Thats how I felt with Fat Buu.

Didn't say the villain can't be strong, but the hero has to overcome the villain because of their virtues. Very often not only is the villain written better, it seems the hero is made to look worse in comparison. Look at the Dark Knight, The Joker is damn near omniscient in that flick. Batman kind of has a thumb up his butt. At least in Dragon Ball, Goku is constantly pushing himself and has a personality, unlike some heroes. "The Devil plays the best tunes." Yeah, it's easy when you don't care to write good stuff for the hero.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Didn't say the villain can't be strong, but the hero has to overcome the villain because of their virtues. Very often not only is the villain written better, it seems the hero is made to look worse in comparison. Look at the Dark Knight, The Joker is damn near omniscient in that flick. Batman kind of has a thumb up his butt. At least in Dragon Ball, Goku is constantly pushing himself and has a personality, unlike some heroes. "The Devil plays the best tunes." Yeah, it's easy when you don't care to write good stuff for the hero.

The tension is usually a lot thicker when the main villain is intellectually superior with the hero opposing him, thats what makes him a villain. The back and forth thing is what builds up the reason why defeating that villain is important, the hopeless moments when the villain proves that he has the intellectual advantages is what makes these fights memorable and increases the value of trumph and brings out the hero's character and moral development. Its what Freeza did for Goku. Majin Buu was just a stock forgettable character because he didnt really expand anything for the heroes. He was just mindless. Okay, great.

[ABED]

Didn't say the villain can't be strong, but the hero has to overcome the villain because of their virtues. Very often not only is the villain written better, it seems the hero is made to look worse in comparison. Look at the Dark Knight, The Joker is damn near omniscient in that flick. Batman kind of has a thumb up his butt. At least in Dragon Ball, Goku is constantly pushing himself and has a personality, unlike some heroes. "The Devil plays the best tunes." Yeah, it's easy when you don't care to write good stuff for the hero.

The tension is usually a lot thicker when the main villain is intellectually superior with the hero opposing him, thats what makes him a villain. The back and forth thing is what builds up the reason why defeating that villain is important, the hopeless moments when the villain proves that he has the intellectual advantages is what makes these fights memorable and increases the value of trumph and brings out the hero's character and moral development. Its what Freeza did for Goku. Majin Buu was just a stock forgettable character because he didnt really expand anything for the heroes. He was just mindless. Okay, great.

Not necessarily. The villain is usually the instigator, so the good guy is already playing catch up. What makes that person the villain is doing evil stuff. Back and forth is great, but that requires a hero to be at least equal to the villain. Kid Buu was great because he was in fact mindless and just wanted chaos. Sherlock is a great hero because of his intellect, but it takes him time to get ahead of the villain. I can't help but wonder how much better The Dark Knight would've been had Batman been an intellectual equal to the Joker. Goku is great because of his strength and no quit attitude, but either he has help, or he becomes stronger than the villain. All too often the villain is just a wrecking machine and better than every other character, and it's no wonder people respond to them more than heroes. Whatever advantage the villain has, should be temporary.

One of things I loved about Die Hard so much was that Hans Gruber is a great villain, and the hero is equally great. Neither are stupid.

[Duo]

Other posters are right to say the show has dark and gritty elements, but it's always had a strong presence of silliness as well - a necessary contrast that needs to be maintained. We go from Majin Buu playing with a puppy to watching Mr. Satan get shot in a very small time frame.

[KentalSSJ6]

I'd be fine with this provided it strikes a balance like say, FMA Brotherhood did. Theres tons of dark and gritty moments but for each one theres something to balance it out.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

DBZ needs to get progressively more serious for the necessary moments when the villains need to shine, DBZ before BoG used to be approprately dark enough to create that tension. Most of DBZ movies were a lot darker then the series itself was which was pretty cool. Some were even near post-apocalyptic feeling. Those were dark and very interesting because it gave the villains a way to express themselves a lot more. BoG felt very constricting with how too laid-back it was, I didnt find it really worthy of a theatre film.

[Duo]

I'd be fine with this provided it strikes a balance like say, FMA Brotherhood did. Theres tons of dark and gritty moments but for each one theres something to balance it out.

Awesome example and I strongly agree.

That said, I ask folks who wanted Battle of Gods to be gritty to just go watch Movie 3 again - there's your apocalypse right there.

[ABED]

I like a good mix. Not every episode has to have the same tone, and not every arc needs the same tone. A dark arc can follow a lighthearted arc, and vice versa.

[B]

I'm not against a "serious" villain, but in no way do I feel it is mandatory to have one, or to take the villain "seriously." This is a series where monkey men punch each other. And I definitely prefer antagonists that aren't simply out for world domination or power. Piccolo Daimao, Freeza, and Cell did that, and they were the best at it. It's why most of the movies are snoozefests; they're just trying to reinvent the wheel and do what the manga already perfected.