Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[rereboy]

Bulma, Chichi, Lunch, Baba, #18, Videl, Pan. 6

Also Mai, Marron, & Ran Fan but they are pretty minor, yes even compared to Lunch minor.

There's not many main characters though.

[garnetjester]

But if you compare it would be Goku, Gohan, Gohan Sr., Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, Yamucha, Kururin, Chaotzu, Tenshinhan, Puar, Oolong, Umigame (has more appearances than Lunch in the manga, so he should count), Muten Roshi, #17, #16 , and all the bad guys except for 18 and that RR general who was a woman whose name I can't remember. So three times as many men as there are women. Maybe even 4x counting the bad guys (the red ribbon had a lot of people in it haha).

ETA: I don't think this is a bad fact in itself, and I love DB for what it is, and think that however few female characters we have they are all awesome and none of them are damsels in distress, which is a breath of fresh air in this type of story, but the fact is that by the time Z comes around it's pretty much a sausage fest the whole time.

[Kendamu]

The Bechdel Test was never meant to be an actual test in which to judge the quality of something. It came from a comic strip in which the author (last name Bechdel) was giving funny commentary on the state of Hollywood while joking that the lesbian main character, who uses the test literally, is unable to enjoy anything. Somehow, it became this weird recent fad and people treat it as if it's gospel meant to be taken literally. While I think the commentary from its originating comic strip is valid, I don't support its literal usage because many quality works, some with strong female characters in them, don't pass and therefore they are suddenly "bad" despite any other merits.

Also, it shows that people are willing to try to squeeze complex human social interactions across a multitude of cultures into some overly splified three-question test that comes from an Indie comic strip.

There's a lot more to it. You can learn about it in this video on the Escapist.

[Kid Buu]

None of my own works pass this test. Sigh, I'm no better than Toriyama.

I don't think Toriyama handles females characters that well, but I also acknowledge that its a comic book for little boys so I do expect more male screentime than female screentime.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Thanks to the people pointing out the fact that discussion of the test isn't necessarily discussion against the series' quality or anything like it.

I made the topic because I thought the "test" was an interesting concept, and I thought a discussion of that in regards to my favourite franchise would be worth having. My intentions were not negative.

Basically, most my knowledge of it stemmed from Dumbing of Age. I've never read the initial strips, but it partly stayed in my mind because I had previously read Bechdel's book Fun Home.

[Fizzer]

The lack of female characters is one of the problems in Dragon Ball. If Dragon Ball were to be made now, things would be very different and we'd get many of the male fighters replaced with female ones, and they'd have rivalries between each other and things like that. There'd be a major risk of the thing going all gurrrrrl powaaaaa and making a ridiculous mockery of itself, but I've never seen anything wrong with the idea of female super warriors who go through the same training as the men and thus are on the same level as those men in battle.

This test clearly wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but the fact that many do take it seriously is an interesting reflection on today's world. It's likely that many take it seriously as a measuring tool precisely because so many things fail it, which then enables these people point fingers at a hell of a lot of stuff and say it's objectively bad.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Honestly, I'm more concerned with how often the female characters in Dragon Ball are used just to make more characters by having babies during timeskips than I am their lack of involvement in the main story (though I do wish Videl and 18 had been used more properly past their introductions) or whether or not they talk about men when they meet up.

My point - Dragon Ball does have some pretty big (unintended though) problems around it's use of female characters...but this Bechdel "test" doesn't highlight them, and instead just highlights an over-the-top sensitivity that a lot of people have towards fiction. I'm seriously considering making 'the Kaliba test'. It will judge the use of men in shows, and you automatically fail if the guys A) sit around drinking beer, having no interest in their children, and get into hilarious hijinks that would be grounds for divorce in real life, or B) are so over the top handsome that sunshine pours from their sweat glands and attempts to blind viewers from the fact that they're actually pretty big jerks if you examine their personalities. Cuz it's totally not like that ever happens to men in media, right?

[Rocketman]

just highlights an over-the-top sensitivity that a lot of people have towards fiction.

Being irritated at culture ignoring the majority of humanity = "over-the-top sensitivity".

[Kendamu]

Thanks to the people pointing out the fact that discussion of the test isn't necessarily discussion against the series' quality or anything like it.

I made the topic because I thought the "test" was an interesting concept, and I thought a discussion of that in regards to my favourite franchise would be worth having. My intentions were not negative.

Basically, most my knowledge of it stemmed from Dumbing of Age. I've never read the initial strips, but it partly stayed in my mind because I had previously read Bechdel's book Fun Home.

I'm not judging you for making this thread at all. You wanted to have this discussion and I had something useful to contribute to said discussion. What I said isn't some be-all end-all discussion-stopping powerhouse of infallible logic. I wasn't really aiming what I said directly at a specific person, either. I was more or less putting my two cents in regarding the fad and how I've seen people use the Bechdel Test as some sort of professional mechanism of evaluation that not only determines the quality of a work, but also the character of the author and whether he should be spat upon because his work doesn't pass this "test."

My above post and this one are aimed at people who take this as gospel thinking that "Bechdel" is the name of some Eurpoean sociologist who had some groundbreaking academic papers published that proved that all males of every species are evil and that the Patriarchy(TM), the final boss against Lesbian Separatism and creators of the unnatural act of heterosexual reproduction, are holding these papers back from reaching the outside world; save for the holy Bechdel Test that happened to slip through the cracks.

As far as I know, nobody here is that crazy about any of those things. Instead, we're crazy about Dragonball. Also, if Bulma and her mom have ever spoken about anything other than men, then it passes. It doesn't matter how dirty the perverted jokes are, how many times Bulma's flashed something at someone as a teenager, or how lowly Vegeta treated Bulma during the Freeza and Android/Cell Arcs. It passes.

See? That's why I get all serious about disliking how seriously some people take the literal test rather than overall observation Bechdel was trying to impart on us. I think the only thing I seriously dislike more is serious calculation of Battle Powers beyond the Freeza Arc. I'm kidding.

[Gyt Kaliba]

just highlights an over-the-top sensitivity that a lot of people have towards fiction.

Being irritated at culture ignoring the majority of humanity = "over-the-top sensitivity".

You're missing my point. I'm not trying to say that there's not an overt sexism in media, because there is - and yes, a lot of it is aimed at women. But there's an awful lot of it aimed at men too, and oddly enough you almost never hear that brought up. And again, Dragon Ball definitely has problems with it's use of female characters...but nothing that this "test" brings up in my opinion.

[Rocketman]

You're missing my point. I'm not trying to say that there's not an overt sexism in media, because there is - and yes, a lot of it is aimed at women. But there's an awful lot of it aimed at men too, and oddly enough you almost never hear that brought up.

You can't see how never allowing women to even talk to each other is just a bit more important that whatever minor complaints men have?

[Gyt Kaliba]

Compared to what I see is an actual issue - the fact that female characters are used just to make more characters by timeskip babies - I do not, no. I also fail to see how having them talk to each other more often would alleviate any issues if said talking was just there to go 'see, we did let it happen' rather than it contributing to the plot at all.

[Kendamu]

Has anybody thought about the fact that maybe why the women aren't talking to each other in DBZ is because the target audience (young boys) is probably more interested in watching Goku punch things? Has anyone ever thought that the businesses that invest in the Dragonball manga and anime franchises would rather capitalize on the hard data they have on their target consumers' wants rather than risking their investments trying to impart lessons on what women talk about when they're alone?

Art only gets to far when a business wants to get a return on their investment by getting kids' parents to shell out money on the DBZ STADY DESKU.

It's not an ideal scenario, but corporations who get these stories published aren't actually all that interested in fighting the Patriarchy(TM).

[Gyt Kaliba]

I totally get that, Kendamu, which is why my complaints about how female Dragon Ball characters are used, are mostly made in jest. At the end of the day, it's all about making money, which is why stuff like Heroes exists in the first place. The only reason I bring up my point at all is to say that I find that to be a much bigger problem than what the Bechdel test brings to the table.

[Fizzer]

Honestly, I'm more concerned with how often the female characters in Dragon Ball are used just to make more characters by having babies during timeskips than I am their lack of involvement in the main story (though I do wish Videl and 18 had been used more properly past their introductions) or whether or not they talk about men when they meet up.

My point - Dragon Ball does have some pretty big (unintended though) problems around it's use of female characters...but this Bechdel "test" doesn't highlight them, and instead just highlights an over-the-top sensitivity that a lot of people have towards fiction. I'm seriously considering making 'the Kaliba test'. It will judge the use of men in shows, and you automatically fail if the guys A) sit around drinking beer, having no interest in their children, and get into hilarious hijinks that would be grounds for divorce in real life, or B) are so over the top handsome that sunshine pours from their sweat glands and attempts to blind viewers from the fact that they're actually pretty big jerks if you examine their personalities. Cuz it's totally not like that ever happens to men in media, right?

This reminds me of an interesting video about the stereotyping and objectification of men and women in the media in general. It pointed out that everyone is objectified, whether it be athletes for their sporting talents, science teachers for their ability to teach science or men/women for their sexuality, and that women in the media or portrayed as desirable or elevated and unattainable objects, while men are portrayed as unwanted and disposable objects. Men are always portrayed as stupid, inelegant, or trying to attain the glorious god-like woman who looks down at him as a silly little man. Either that or they're just sexually objectified in exactly the same way as women, which is of course, the better of the two for the creating a positive image of men in society.

[Rocketman]

Compared to what I see is an actual issue - the fact that female characters are used just to make more characters by timeskip babies - I do not, no.

I was talking more generally, not just about Dragonball.

I also fail to see how having them talk to each other more often would alleviate any issues if said talking was just there to go 'see, we did let it happen' rather than it contributing to the plot at all.

Why is the plot written so that women never talk to each other?

[Kid Buu]

Its just amazing how much media doesn't have two females speaking to each other. I mean, that test seems so simple in theory....

[Gyt Kaliba]

Compared to what I see is an actual issue - the fact that female characters are used just to make more characters by timeskip babies - I do not, no.

I was talking more generally, not just about Dragonball.

Ah, my bad in that case. I thought we were still talking about Dragon Ball alone on that particular point.

I also fail to see how having them talk to each other more often would alleviate any issues if said talking was just there to go 'see, we did let it happen' rather than it contributing to the plot at all.

Why is the plot written so that women never talk to each other?

Again, a fair point, but I still don't see it as an issue that's worth treating as such a huge deal. Sometimes a story is just a story, it doesn't inherently mean that it's creator(s) were sexist just because one gender is used more than the other. It's as Kendamu said, Dragon Ball at it's core was written for little boys, an age group that would mostly be going 'eww, girls' or being strangely intrigued by the occasional fan-service the series had - they'd almost certainly never be thinking about these kinds of issues. We, the older fans, are the outlier here.

This reminds me of an interesting video about the stereotyping and objectification of men and women in the media in general. It pointed out that everyone is objectified, whether it be athletes for their sporting talents, science teachers for their ability to teach science or men/women for their sexuality, and that women in the media or portrayed as desirable or elevated and unattainable objects, while men are portrayed as unwanted and disposable objects. Men are always portrayed as stupid, inelegant, or trying to attain the glorious god-like woman who looks down at him as a silly little man. Either that or they're just sexually objectified in exactly the same way as women, which is of course, the better of the two for the creating a positive image of men in society.

Do you happen to know the name of that video or have a link to it? It sounds like something I wouldn't mind seeing, because it sounds like it fits with what I'm trying to say. Again, I'm not saying that there's not sexism against women in media, but why is it that nobody ever decries when the same things are done to men? Just because it also happens to women doesn't make it okay that it happens to men, nor is the opposite true, but why is it that only one gender ever gets focused on for these debates? Do men in general just not care or notice the way we're painted in media (again it usually seems to always be the complete doofus, the Homer Simpson; the badass that nobody can live up to, the Thor; or the pretty boy that can do no wrong, the Edward Cullen)? That's what concerns me so much here.

[Rocketman]

Again, I'm not saying that there's not sexism against women in media, but why is it that nobody ever decries when the same things are done to men?

Imagine a country where by law women are not allowed to speak to each other. This country also mandates that its men exercise every day to reach a physical standard.

Which policy should be removed first?

[Gaffer Tape]

Why should one have to be removed first? Why can't they be removed at the same time? Why does focusing on one totally preclude the idea of focusing on the other?

That's the only thing I disagree with: that the fight against "isms" is now some kind of contest as to what group has it worse. And if the group you're touting has been decided by someone to not have it "as bad," then it's suddenly not allowed to even be discussed without a scoff of, "Well, how dare you talk about this when that needs attention?" What's the point? How is it relevant? How does that help? How can equality ever be reached when even our attempts to reach equality are treated as an opportunity to split us into groups and compete against each other? Where's the equality in treating sexism/racism/etcism against certain groups as more important than other groups? Doesn't that go against the very principles of such ideas?