Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

[Cetra]

Goku also wanted to stop Vegeta from breaking the Earrings inside of Boo and when he lost power he complained about Vegeta doing so.

Again a vauge statement made by goku because he was uncertain about buu's power levels,goku was unsure about his SSj3 form's powers and if it stood chance against buu after transforming.

I did not say it was clear or unequivocal, you asked where he wanted to fuse. I am well aware of manga dialogues or the comment of Yusuke Watanabe for Battle of Gods that he thought of a stronger transformation than Super Saiyajin 3 when he thought about Super Saiyajin God. Also, no matter how often the Inside Boo-conversation is repeated by fans, it is not uequivocal and those who think it is ignore all possible meanings, really every information given in 42 volumes and the possible meant contexts. Especially when the power dimensions are shown to make no sense once Super Boo appears, and English text will not provide the actual answer.

[Darkprince410]

Apparently you missed the part where he recommended using fusion against unfused base Super Buu.

OH PLEASE WHERE IS THIS PART?? I must have really missed this one! Because all i have seen is goku fusing to fight GOHAN absorbed Super buu.. oh wait.. unless you're thinking that SSj goten&SSJ trunks are anywhere near as strong SSj goku and stood a chance against fat buu without fusion.

Dai Kaioshin is mentioned to have weakened Buu down into Fat Buu. Super Buu is stated to be stronger than both Fat Buu and SS3 Goku, who was equal to if not slightly stronger than Pure Buu.

Dude i don't care who said what! i refer to direct fights as evidence not vague statements made by characters.

By your unrealistic power scaling Gohan is like 1000 times stronger than SSJ3 goku which i don't think is the case at all.

there's absolutely no reason to believe Super Buu is weaker.

Yeah there is like fat buu weakening Super buu?

I'm not sure what else you want.

ACTUAL FIGHTS as evidence,thank you.

I'd also like to note that Goku said Gotenks was

Actual fights please.

When Goku and Vegeta are inside Buu, after having removed Gohan and the others, and Goku commented that Buu's power had dropped considerably, but he was still more than a match for them (as in normal Evil Buu, not Gohan Buu or Gotenks Buu or anything like that, being stronger than Goku and Vegeta), he goes on to berate Vegeta for having destroyed the Potara earrings, and then suggests they use the Fusion Dance. Vegeta chides him for suggesting such a thing because he didn't want to merge with Goku again (especially using such a silly looking technique), and they go on to try and find a way to weaken him further to where they can do something without needing to fuse.

If you're solely going on fights that actually took place, and disregarding statements that are made and not contradicted, then there's no way to settle this. In the manga, which is far more accurate than the anime because the anime incorporates content that blatantly contradicts the manga, Goku fought only two forms of Buu, the Fat Buu and Pure Buu. He didn't fight Gohan Buu, and he didn't fight Evil Buu while he and Vegeta were inside Buu's body. The closest he came to fighting Evil Buu in any of his forms was he quickly transformed to Ssj3 when Gotenks Buu charged him (as Gohan was looking for the thrown Potara earring), but unlike what is shown in the anime, in the manga Gotenks' fusion wears off before Buu even reaches Goku, resulting in him reverting to Piccolo Buu.

When actual fights don't occur, you need to supplement other information given to flesh out where characters are in terms of strength. Statements made establishing one person's strength over another, with no information to suggest any kind of error or lie ever given, should be taken at face value. For example, do you believe that Full Power Super Saiya-jin Gohan was stronger than Goku after the two left the Room of Spirit and Time in the Cell Saga? If so, why? Goku and Gohan never fought eachother, and Goku arguably did better in his fight against Cell than Gohan did up until he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 2, so why would anyone believe Gohan was stronger? Because on multiple accounts, by three different individuals, it's established verbally that Gohan is stronger. Goku states it, Piccolo expresses that he believes it, and even Cell comments that Goku wasn't lying when he said Gohan was stronger, so there lies evidence to support Gohan being stronger without the two actually needing to fight.

In the same situation, we have multiple cases of it being suggested or established that Evil Buu is more powerful than Pure Buu. We have the statement by Goku that Ssj Gotenks, before his time in the Room of Spirit and Time, is strong enough to do what he (Goku), as a Super Saiya-jin 3 couldn't. Granted, we know later on that Goku would have been able to kill Fat Buu, but that doesn't contradict the level of power that he establishes Ssj Gotenks should have. Likewise, he wouldn't leave the fate of the world in the hands of the boys if their Ssj fusion was weaker than Ssj2 Ma-jin Vegeta. He knew it'd be stronger than Ma-jin Vegeta, and therefore stronger than Ssj2 Goku since it's established the two are equal.

Ssj Gotenks > Ssj2 Ma-jin Vegeta = Ssj2 Goku

We have the boys going into the Room of Spirit and Time, training, reaching Ssj2 and Ssj3, and thus putting themselves on a a near equal pedestal to Evil Buu. Going by established Ssj multipliers, even if Ssj Gotenks didn't get stronger on his own, reaching Ssj2 and Ssj3 would still put Ssj3 Gotenks, at the very least, over twice as strong as Ssj3 Goku. In truth though, given a possible interpretation of a Daizenshuu entry regarding Gotenks, the boys trained hard enough to where base Gotenks was stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, which would put Ssj3 Gotenks over a hundred times stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

Then, during the situation with Vegeta and Goku inside Buu's body, after they had removed Gohan and the others from their cocoons, Goku makes the comment that they're "almost there", and later tells Vegeta that while they've weakened Buu considerably, he's still too strong for them, that they'd lose if they fought, and that fusion was the only way for them to beat him without weakening him further.

Lastly, when Goku sees and senses Pure Buu, he makes the comment that they "did it" and that he's now in a state to where they can actually do something about him. Goku's "We did it!" ties back into the previous statement about he and Vegeta almost having Buu weak enough to fight on their own, that in becoming Pure Buu, he had become weak enough that Goku felt they could manage something on their own, and wouldn't need to fuse to win.

As for a comment made about Goku being uncertain about his Ssj3 strength, there is not one single line ever said or suggested that he was uncertain about him doubting whether or not the form would be strong enough. Even to the very end, right up to when he fell out of Ssj3 because his body couldn't hold the ki anymore, he was confident that he knew the abilities and strength of the form. If anything, he was overconfident about his abilities in the form, which further establishes just how big of a gap there was between him and Evil Buu if he wasn't even wanting to try and fight him.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

Son Goku's reactions on strength of Super Boo, Kid Boo and even Buff Boo's power is quite clear. Son Goku (even Super Saiyan 3) cannot defeat Super Buu and his absorption forms individually and needed fusion to able to have chance to stand up to him. Then Super Boo became Buff Boo and his power is stated to have increased, and then into fearsome and terrifying Kid Boo, which their confident in their power to able to stand a change against.

[Rockman X]

Son Goku's reactions on strength of Super Boo, Kid Boo and even Buff Boo's power is quite clear. Son Goku (even Super Saiyan 3) cannot defeat Super Buu and his absorption forms individually and needed fusion to able to have chance to stand up to him. Then Super Boo became Buff Boo and his power is stated to have increased, and then into fearsome and terrifying Kid Boo, which their confident in their power to able to stand a change against.

Stand a chance against?? i think its pretty clear that Kid buu wiped the floor with SSj3 Goku and SSj2 Vegeta.

I just can't believe the level of fanboyism over superbuu.

but he was still more than a match for them (as in normal Evil Buu, not Gohan Buu or Gotenks Buu or anything like that, being stronger than Goku and Vegeta)

Except that doesn't mean kid buu is any weaker than super buu as he demonstrably beat Goku SSj3 fair&square.. so i don't see how kid buu is any weaker than super buu.

If you're solely going on fights that actually took place.

Yes Because people continuously disregard the context of the situation when the statement was being made.

When actual fights don't occur, you need to supplement other information given to flesh out where characters are in terms of strength.

No i've got a better idea.. why not compare other characters who beat super buu like gohan with Goku and see where he stands?

I don't see SSJ3 goku being really that weaker compared to Gohan so i'd say super buu is at best as strong as kid buu.

so why would anyone believe Gohan was stronger?

Because Gohan beat cell.. that's a fair demonstration of his power.

which would put Ssj3 Gotenks over a hundred times stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

That's not least bit logical but whatever they merely had 5 minutes in SSj3 form so they never stood a chance against super buu with sloppy attitude and skills.

there is not one single line ever said or suggested that he was uncertain about him doubting whether or not the form would be strong enough.

He clearly states that he doesn't have experience with that form and didn't know the drawbacks it had until he fought kid buu to exhaustion.

[chaospunishment]

Fat Buu could destroy SS2 Vegeta. It's not something to put as an accomplishment for Pure Buu...

Goku never wanted to fight Super Buu, even after ripping out Gohan and the others. Because he would lose.

He got even more scared when he turned into Buff Buu. Because he would lose

Went happy when he turned into Pure Buu. Because he could win.

It's not very hard to work it out. You're just ignoring any fact against Pure Buu because you don't want him to be weaker.

[Hugo Boss]

Went happy when he turned into Pure Buu. Because he could win.

I recall some guidebook saying "not even even a full power Goku can defeat [Pure] Boo". The only fact I'm aware of is that Goku & Vegeta understimated him, so it seems there is still room left to seek in terms of strength for Pure Boo. After the fight, Goku even says he will train so next time he won't lose.

[RandomGuy96]

Went happy when he turned into Pure Buu. Because he could win.

I recall some guidebook saying "not even even a full power Goku can defeat [Pure] Boo". The only fact I'm aware of is that Goku & Vegeta understimated him, so it seems there is still room left to seek in terms of strength for Pure Boo. After the fight, Goku even says he will train so next time he won't lose.

They don't underestimate his strength, and Goku maintains right up until he reverts that they can beat him. They overestimate themselves; namely, SS3's stamina.

Super Buu > Pure Buu is completely undebatable fact. I don't know how much clearer it can actually be, short of Toriyama himself personally walking to everyone's houses and slapping them while saying "GOKU IS WEAKER THAN GOHAN AND GOTENKS DAMMIT".

[Hugo Boss]

Went happy when he turned into Pure Buu. Because he could win.

I recall some guidebook saying "not even even a full power Goku can defeat [Pure] Boo". The only fact I'm aware of is that Goku & Vegeta understimated him, so it seems there is still room left to seek in terms of strength for Pure Boo. After the fight, Goku even says he will train so next time he won't lose.

They don't underestimate his strength, and Goku maintains right up until he reverts that they can beat him. They overestimate themselves; namely, SS3's stamina.

Super Buu > Pure Buu is completely undebatable fact. I don't know how much clearer it can actually be, short of Toriyama himself personally walking to everyone's houses and slapping them while saying "GOKU IS WEAKER THAN GOHAN AND GOTENKS DAMMIT".

Please, stop. Saying the same thing over and over won't close the debates the way they are now.

[VegettoEX]

Please, stop.

Why?

You've provided no context in this post as to what you disagree with (do you?). Furthermore, you are in absolutely no position to demand that any other community member in particular no longer participate in any discussion.

[Hugo Boss]

Please, stop.

Why?

You've provided no context in this post as to what you disagree with (do you?). Furthermore, you are in absolutely no position to demand that any other community member in particular no longer participate in any discussion.

I have provided a reason in my edited post. I didn't mean to demand @RandomGuy to no longer participate in any discussion.

[chaospunishment]

Went happy when he turned into Pure Buu. Because he could win.

I recall some guidebook saying "not even even a full power Goku can defeat [Pure] Boo". The only fact I'm aware of is that Goku & Vegeta understimated him, so it seems there is still room left to seek in terms of strength for Pure Boo. After the fight, Goku even says he will train so next time he won't lose.

They didn't underestimate him, Goku never fought as SS3 with a living body before. he never knew how long he could keep it up.

Goku had the upper hand for most of the fight.

Goku says that a full power attack will destroy Kid Buu. He also says they can't beat Super Buu, but these parts get ignored I guess.

[RandomGuy96]

Please, stop. Saying the same thing over and over won't close the debates the way they are now.

Correcting errors and misconceptions won't help close debates...? Because Goku never underestimated Buu's strength, and there really isn't any room left to seek for Pure Buu's strength.

[Hugo Boss]

Please, stop. Saying the same thing over and over won't close the debates the way they are now.

Correcting errors and misconceptions won't help close debates...? Because Goku never underestimated Buu's strength, and there really isn't any room left to seek for Pure Buu's strength.

They would, but it doesn't seem to be the case here.

Went happy when he turned into Pure Buu. Because he could win.

I recall some guidebook saying "not even even a full power Goku can defeat [Pure] Boo". The only fact I'm aware of is that Goku & Vegeta understimated him, so it seems there is still room left to seek in terms of strength for Pure Boo. After the fight, Goku even says he will train so next time he won't lose.

They didn't underestimate him, Goku never fought as SS3 with a living body before. he never knew how long he could keep it up.

Goku had the upper hand for most of the fight.

Goku says that a full power attack will destroy Kid Buu. He also says they can't beat Super Buu, but these parts get ignored I guess.

They undestimated Pure Boo as well, I assume by doing the rock-paper-scizzors-thing. Goku also overstimated his own abilities, like sustaining SS3 as you said.

What do you mean by having the upper hand? Boo was not getting any damage at all, unlike Son Goku. He thinks he can defeat Boo with his 100% power (full power ki blast, maybe), but the situation is completely unpredictable, we don't know if he is truly capable of doing this. Apparently, Gotenks was about to do the same thing against Evil Boo, but well he reverted to his regular form before having the opportunity.

I'm not saying Evil Boo is equal or weaker than Pure Boo, but it doesn't seem to me a completely undebatable fact that he is far stronger.

[Darkprince410]

Son Goku's reactions on strength of Super Boo, Kid Boo and even Buff Boo's power is quite clear. Son Goku (even Super Saiyan 3) cannot defeat Super Buu and his absorption forms individually and needed fusion to able to have chance to stand up to him. Then Super Boo became Buff Boo and his power is stated to have increased, and then into fearsome and terrifying Kid Boo, which their confident in their power to able to stand a change against.

Stand a chance against?? i think its pretty clear that Kid buu wiped the floor with SSj3 Goku and SSj2 Vegeta.

I just can't believe the level of fanboyism over superbuu.

but he was still more than a match for them (as in normal Evil Buu, not Gohan Buu or Gotenks Buu or anything like that, being stronger than Goku and Vegeta)

Except that doesn't mean kid buu is any weaker than super buu as he demonstrably beat Goku SSj3 fair&square.. so i don't see how kid buu is any weaker than super buu.

If you're solely going on fights that actually took place.

Yes Because people continuously disregard the context of the situation when the statement was being made.

When actual fights don't occur, you need to supplement other information given to flesh out where characters are in terms of strength.

No i've got a better idea.. why not compare other characters who beat super buu like gohan with Goku and see where he stands?

I don't see SSJ3 goku being really that weaker compared to Gohan so i'd say super buu is at best as strong as kid buu.

so why would anyone believe Gohan was stronger?

Because Gohan beat cell.. that's a fair demonstration of his power.

which would put Ssj3 Gotenks over a hundred times stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

That's not least bit logical but whatever they merely had 5 minutes in SSj3 form so they never stood a chance against super buu with sloppy attitude and skills.

there is not one single line ever said or suggested that he was uncertain about him doubting whether or not the form would be strong enough.

He clearly states that he doesn't have experience with that form and didn't know the drawbacks it had until he fought kid buu to exhaustion.

1) He never "fair and square" beat Goku at all. The two were essentially at a standstill in terms of damage being dealt to one another. It all came down to the stamina of the two, and even then Goku was still confident in his ability to destroy Pure Buu if he had a minute to gather his ki up for another attempt.

2) What context discounts the statement? If you're referring to the fact that Goku was small at the time that he said it, he specifically makes note that they wouldn't be able to beat him upon leaving his body (thus regaining their normal size) and furthermore wasn't aware of the power loss in being small until Buu pointed it out.

3) Why? There's no information to compare those two without incorporating what is established about Evil Buu, and in turn what is established about Pure Buu. Gohan could beat Evil Buu, Goku couldn't (by his own admission). Gohan is stronger than Goku. Goku couldn't beat Evil Buu (and wasn't even willing to try). Goku believed up to the very end he could beat Pure Buu. Evil Buu then must be stronger than Pure Buu.

4) Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan defeat Cell, not Full Power Super Saiya-jin Gohan. However, Goku, Cell, and Piccolo all state or suggest that Gohan is still more powerful than his father even before the transformation, so why should we accept that as a fact and disregard other statements in terms of strength.

5) Why isn't it logical? It's established that Gotenks is many times stronger than Goten and Trunks are, and the Daizenshuu establishes that Goten is every bit as powerful as his brother, who in turn, while weaker than Goku and Vegeta, isn't by some huge degree. This would in turn mean that Goten and Trunks are very close to their fathers in terms of power, and with Gotenks being many times stronger than the boys are, that would in turn mean that Gotenks is many times stronger than Goku and Vegeta are.

Furthermore, the Daizenshuu makes reference to the fact that after the boys trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others in terms of power. Given that it's clear that Ssj Gotenks, before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, is already stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta (otherwise why would Goku even suggest the boys had a chance in beating Fat Buu if Vegeta couldn't), the only way for that statement to make sense is if Gotenks had become stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta in his base form, thus surpassing everyone in his base form but Goku (who would still be stronger in his Ssj3 form).

6) His only comments about being unaccustomed to the form was during his initial transformation and fight with Fat Buu. When it came to the fight with Pure Buu, we see him actually comment about being overconfident in his abilities (which, while still showing his lack of experience with the form, further proves how much stronger Evil Buu was to him) but still maintained that he could beat Pure Buu.

[RandomGuy96]

. They would, but it doesn't seem to be the case here.

Then that's the fault of people in denial. I will not "stop" correcting errors where I see them.

[Hugo Boss]

They would, but it doesn't seem to be the case here.

Then that's the fault of people in denial. I will not "stop" correcting errors where I see them.

Actually, I mean these two entries from Daizenshuu. How [in]accurate are they? What context?

• "Not even a full power Goku can defeat Boo".
• "Goku always seeks out the strongest, and waited for Boo's reincarnation above all else."

[chaospunishment]

They undestimated Pure Boo as well, I assume by doing the rock-paper-scizzors-thing. Goku also overstimated his own abilities, like sustaining SS3 as you said.

They never say anything about Buu's strength. Just that Goku's living body can't take the strain of SS3.

What do you mean by having the upper hand? Boo was not getting any damage at all, unlike Son Goku. He thinks he can defeat Boo with his 100% power (full power ki blast, maybe), but the situation is completely unpredictable, we don't know if he is truly capable of doing this. Apparently, Gotenks was about to do the same thing against Evil Boo, but well he reverted to his regular form before having the opportunity.

Vegeta thinks the same thing will work too. This is after he blew himself up trying to do the same thing,
Gotenks was playing around the entire time, same with Gohan. There's no reason to believe they couldn't have done it.

I'm not saying Evil Boo is equal or weaker than Pure Boo, but it doesn't seem to me a completely undebatable fact that he is far stronger.

I'm pretty sure Goku saying that Buu would basically murder them if they stepped outside at that moment, then feeling relieved when he gets smaller is a big indicator.

I like Pure Buu a lot more than Evil Buu. But that's like saying I want Yamcha to be the stronger because he's my favourite.

[Hugo Boss]

They never say anything about Buu's strength. Just that Goku's living body can't take the strain of SS3.

Yeah, but they did underestimate him before in two moments. Couldn't they make the same mistake again? Are they proven to be correct in their assumption of SS3 Goku being able to defeat Pure Boo?

Vegeta thinks the same thing will work too. This is after he blew himself up trying to do the same thing,
Gotenks was playing around the entire time, same with Gohan. There's no reason to believe they couldn't have done it.

Like Goku, Vegeta is also making an assumption. I have my doubts about Gotenks being truly capable of destroying Evil Boo with that attack. About Gohan I'm 99% sure he could do it.

I'm pretty sure Goku saying that Buu would basically murder them if they stepped outside at that moment, then feeling relieved when he gets smaller is a big indicator.

I don't disregard what Goku said about Evil Boo, but I'm not safe about what he said referring to Pure Boo. I see "Ki sensing" as something inconsistent in that arc, the characters made a lot of wrong assumptions based on that, as well as they made some accurate observations also. It's pretty confusing.

I like Pure Buu a lot more than Evil Buu. But that's like saying I want Yamcha to be the stronger because he's my favourite.

Well, Evil Boo is my favorite above all Boo's forms. Not that I think that matters.

[RandomGuy96]

They would, but it doesn't seem to be the case here.

Then that's the fault of people in denial. I will not "stop" correcting errors where I see them.

Actually, I mean these two entries from Daizenshuu. How [in]accurate are they? What context?

• "Not even a full power Goku can defeat Boo".
• "Goku always seeks out the strongest, and waited for Boo's reincarnation above all else."

They seem like generic statements about Goku's nature rather than specific power comparisons. The first jus says SS3 Goku can't beat Buu, which is true, he needed to concentrate a blast. The second is just again a statement on Goku's nature. If you really want to interpret it as Pure Buu being stronger than everyone else, then it's simply wrong.

[Gokuden]

I'm pretty sure Ultimate Gohan Buu would curbstomp SSJ3 Goku. But we'll never know, as Goku SSJ3 was fighting Kid Buu on equal terms, and if it wasn't for limited ki when using the form on terra firma...

Some people say that kid buu was toying with him, others say that they were matched.
But if Vegeta can hold his own for one minute... By generally getting his ass kicked...