Out of Character Moments in the series

[ABED]

* Goku giving Cell a Senzu Bean.

I'd say that's perfectly in line with Goku's character. Goku likes to fight opponents when they're a their fullest, surely his son would too, right? He's his son after all. Goku's not the most rational individual. He doesn't seem to be the kind of person to understand through his own critical reasoning skills that not everyone gets off on fighting a life or death battle for the fate of the universe. Let alone his own child who should be just like him, right?

I don't think it really mattered or it had anything to do with Gohan enjoying fighting. It had to do with Cell already being at a disadvantage against Gohan's true power. It was kind of a mind game.

[Zephyr]

I don't think it really mattered or it had anything to do with Gohan enjoying fighting. It had to do with Cell already being at a disadvantage against Gohan's true power. It was kind of a mind game.

I always felt it was both. He wanted to give his son as true of a fight as he could, and also wanted to show everyone that Cell at his fullest was no match.

And then they proceeded to get responses from other users that completely destroyed their arguments.

I've yet to see anyone refute the point that every other point where Gohan fought, killed, and unleashed his power were entirely different situations when compared to the Cell Games, and thus different behavior is entirely excusable. Care to comment on that at all?

[ABED]

I don't think it really mattered or it had anything to do with Gohan enjoying fighting. It had to do with Cell already being at a disadvantage against Gohan's true power. It was kind of a mind game.

I always felt it was both. He wanted to give his son as true of a fight as he could, and also wanted to show everyone that Cell at his fullest was no match.

I wouldn't rule it out, but my point of contention is when people point to that moment to knock Goku, and conveniently forget that Cell was no match for Gohan, so the senzu was essentially useless.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm going to retread Gohan from the Cell Games. It's like Toriyama completely forgot about the way he wrote Gohan in the Saiyan, Freeza, and android arcs. All of that development, right down the drain with one scene. Contrast how he acts at the beginning of this arc, where he's eager to help out and voluntarily trains with his father and Piccolo, fully knowing he's walking into a life or death battle, to the Cell Games, where he tries to talk Cell down (even though he should know that isn't going to work), because he doesn't want to fight or kill, and sees it as pointless. It's also hilariously hypocritical, since he quickly and remorselessly killed a thug on Namek who, to our knowledge, was nowhere near as evil as Cell.

Oh, and what finally gets him to cut loose? The destruction of a piece of machinery that he'd never seen before, one specifically designed to murder his father. Sorry all of Gohan's friends and family, apparently he doesn't care enough about you to do anything when you're being beaten to death. Nor does he care about you, hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were killed by Cell, because he doesn't think he needs to fight Cell, and doesn't want to.

Aside from that, I'd also like to bring up Piccolo at the Cell Games. Him knowing that Gohan doesn't want to fight is completely contrived and dumb, because Gohan has so far shown no indication he won't fight when it necessary, and even outright requested to be taken to fight the androids. It's a case of the story bending over backwards to make a character look better than they are.

[ABED]

I think the Gohan thing was contrived for the sake of drama, and the Piccolo thing is a case of showing his connection and care for Gohan.

[MediaFanGirl93]

Aside from that, I'd also like to bring up Piccolo at the Cell Games. Him knowing that Gohan doesn't want to fight is completely contrived and dumb, because Gohan has so far shown no indication he won't fight when it necessary, and even outright requested to be taken to fight the androids. It's a case of the story bending over backwards to make a character look better than they are.

I remember reading in the manga when Gohan told Piccolo something like "But I don't want to be a fighter...I want to be a great scholar." Gohan only agreed to train because he wanted to protect others.

[RandomGuy96]

Aside from that, I'd also like to bring up Piccolo at the Cell Games. Him knowing that Gohan doesn't want to fight is completely contrived and dumb, because Gohan has so far shown no indication he won't fight when it necessary, and even outright requested to be taken to fight the androids. It's a case of the story bending over backwards to make a character look better than they are.

I remember reading in the manga when Gohan told Piccolo something like "But I don't want to be a fighter...I want to be a great scholar." Gohan only agreed to train because he wanted to protect others.

There is a difference between "I don't want my whole career to be fighting" and "I don't want to fight ever, even though I told and showed you I did and if I don't we all die".

[MediaFanGirl93]

There is a difference between "I don't want my whole career to be fighting" and "I don't want to fight ever, even though I told and showed you I did and if I don't we all die".

Fair enough, but I was just responding to what you said about how Piccolo knew that Gohan didn't want to fight.

[RandomGuy96]

There is a difference between "I don't want my whole career to be fighting" and "I don't want to fight ever, even though I told and showed you I did and if I don't we all die".

Fair enough, but I was just responding to what you said about how Piccolo knew that Gohan didn't want to fight.

What I said was that it makes no sense for him to know that Gohan doesn't want to fight in this instance, not that he doesn't want to spend his life as a fighter.

[MediaFanGirl93]

There is a difference between "I don't want my whole career to be fighting" and "I don't want to fight ever, even though I told and showed you I did and if I don't we all die".

Fair enough, but I was just responding to what you said about how Piccolo knew that Gohan didn't want to fight.

What I said was that it makes no sense for him to know that Gohan doesn't want to fight in this instance, not that he doesn't want to spend his life as a fighter.

I think Piccolo may have only said that because he was just reprimanding Goku for feeding his son to Cell. He sounded pretty upset doing that, so it's understandable that he would say something like that.

[ABED]

There is a difference between "I don't want my whole career to be fighting" and "I don't want to fight ever, even though I told and showed you I did and if I don't we all die".

Fair enough, but I was just responding to what you said about how Piccolo knew that Gohan didn't want to fight.

What I said was that it makes no sense for him to know that Gohan doesn't want to fight in this instance, not that he doesn't want to spend his life as a fighter.

I never took it that he actually knew. It was his way of pleading with Goku.

[penguintruth]

Gohan at the Cell Games. Completely irrational OOC behavior.

I swear to Kaioshin, the first person to retread "Gohan during the Cell Games" is going to get a living room full of napalm.

Why? They're not wrong.

We've been over this ad nauseam, and you've failed at every turn.

None of your or anybody else's attempts to paint Gohan's behavior during his fight with Cell as "out of character" has been the least bit convincing to anyone with even the simplest comprehension skills.

Gohan was fighting Cell. He just was acknowledging that unlike his father, he doesn't enjoy fighting, and he doesn't want to lose control the way he tends to. He is not, at any point, refusing to fight. He is merely struggling to bring forward his inner power.

If you read anything else in the manga, you'd understand this.

It's really like some of you just skipped entire story arcs. The bile rises in my throat from this continuing "debate".

[rereboy]

He is not, at any point, refusing to fight.

Yes, he is. When the Cell jrs are out and torturing his friends and family, he NEVER actually TRIES to attack Cell or the Cells Jrs. He just stands there, he doesn't TRY to stop it. And even before Cell spawned the Cell Jrs, in the manga, Gohan only actually tried to hit Cell ONE SINGLE TIME with a kick. That's ALL he actually tried to do before going SSJ2.

Not believing that he could beat Cell is irrelevant because Gohan has never actually believed he could beat any of the major villains by himself, but that has never stopped him from actually trying and attacking those major villains when the lives of his friends and family were on the line. A perfect example is when Third Form Freeza is about to kill Piccolo and Gohan, not hesitating or caring about how much stronger Freeza was than him and that he had virtually no chance to beat Freeza, attacked Freeza with all he had and managed to pull off a rage boost that saved Piccolo's life. If Gohan had the Cell games' mindset at that time, he would just stand there and Piccolo would die.

[goku the krump dancer]

How about Veggie man in Movie 8? I know some of you believe he wasn't in character but I do.. I mean Vegeta always seemed to show some form of fear whenever he came face to face with the "Boogie Men" of his childhood. Be it Freeza"his boss", Broly "The Legend" or Beerus "The God of Destruction"..

[penguintruth]

He is not, at any point, refusing to fight.

Yes, he is. When the Cell jrs are out and torturing his friends and family, he NEVER actually TRIES to attack Cell or the Cells Jrs. He just stands there, he doesn't TRY to stop it. And even before Cell spawned the Cell Jrs, in the manga, Gohan only actually tried to hit Cell ONE SINGLE TIME with a kick. That's ALL he actually tried to do before going SSJ2.

Not believing that he could beat Cell is irrelevant because Gohan has never actually believed he could beat any of the major villains by himself, but that has never stopped him from actually trying and attacking those major villains when the lives of his friends and family were on the line. A perfect example is when Third Form Freeza is about to kill Piccolo and Gohan, not hesitating or caring about how much stronger Freeza was than him and that he had virtually no chance to beat Freeza, attacked Freeza with all he had and managed to pull off a rage boost that saved Piccolo's life. If Gohan had the Cell games' mindset at that time, he would just stand there and Piccolo would die.

No. He is not refusing to fight. He is paralyzed with despair. That's not a conscious refusal. That's freezing.

Seriously, you didn't get that? Ahahaha, oh wow.

I think I also read somewhere in this thread that "Gohan shouldn't care about some android he just met being killed", too. Like people don't understand what "the straw that broke the camel's back" is.

Seriously. This is just bizarre, guys. It's Dragon Ball. It's not tough to comprehend. We shouldn't be having these conversations.

[rereboy]

How about Veggie man in Movie 8? I know some of you believe he wasn't in character but I do.. I mean Vegeta always seemed to show some form of fear whenever he came face to face with the "Boogie Men" of his childhood. Be it Freeza"his boss", Broly "The Legend" or Beerus "The God of Destruction"..

Vegeta openly rebelled agaisnt Freeza, a galactic emperor WAY stronger than him and that had several warriors under his command also much stronger than Vegeta, just for the chance of being the Top Guy thanks to the Dragon Balls.

He could have lived a comfortable life as one of the higher warriors in Freeza's army, doing what he liked to do, destroy stuff and conquer planets and whatnot. But he rebelled instead. And he never even hesitated when he found out that Freeza had killed all his race himself.

Does this sound like a man who is THAT fearful of a stronger opponent, like Vegeta is in movie 8?

Vegeta knows fear, but not like he was on movie 8.

No. He is not refusing to fight. He is paralyzed with despair. That's not a conscious refusal. That's freezing.

Seriously, you didn't get that? Ahahaha, oh wow.

I think I also read somewhere in this thread that "Gohan shouldn't care about some android he just met being killed", too. Like people don't understand what "the straw that broke the camel's back" is.

Seriously. This is just bizarre, guys. It's Dragon Ball. It's not tough to comprehend. We shouldn't be having these conversations.

Tomatoes, tomatos. Sure, he WANTS to stop Cell and so he didn't flat out refuse. But, sure, he's not actually TRYING to do anything about it. And sure, that is not how he acted previously when a friend or family member was about to die, making it a different behavior, without any real build-up or proper explanation for the change. And so, sure, that seems more like it happened to create some more drama than an actual natural evolution of Gohan's behavior.

I could also add some ironic laughs in my post so that it feels more complete, but I see no reason to. What I stated is perfectly clear, and anyone logical can see my point.

[penguintruth]

There's a difference between freezing up in despair and consciously deciding, "Gee whiz, I dun wanna fight, fighting is bad, so I'm gonna stand here with my thumb up my ass!"

He's paralyzed by his inability to bring forth his hidden power and his fear of what that might mean, losing control.

You can't see the difference between that and just being suddenly pacifistic?

There is nothing out of character in any of this. This is Gohan's character.

[rereboy]

There's a difference between freezing up in despair and consciously deciding, "Gee whiz, I dun wanna fight, so I'm gonna stand here with my thumb up my ass!"

He's paralyzed by his inability to bring forth his hidden power and his fear of what that might mean, losing control.

If you can't see the difference between that and just being suddenly pacifistic, it's pretty sad.

Maybe you didn't actually read my post due to some sort of reading difficulty, so I'll repeat: tomatoes, tomatos.

If Gohan won't actually try to stop him, no matter how little chances he believes he has, its the same thing as flat out refusing and has the same consequences. And that would actually be fine if Gohan actually wasn't portrayed differently earlier in the story. You see, I understood right from the start what was the reason provided by the story for Gohan's hesitation in the Cell Games, but that reason (Gohan not liking fights and not believing in himself, in his power and in that he could actually beat the villain), is nothing that didn't already existed earlier in the story. Gohan never liked fighting and he never believed that he could actually beat Freeza, for example. Did that stop him from trying his all and not hesitating agaisnt Freeza when his friends/family were in danger? NO. So, why is it suddenly different in the Cell Games? Because its useful to create some more drama. That's all.

Also, I could, once again, imitate you by throwing your "sad" comment back at you, but, once again, there is no reason to. Logical arguments speak for themselves. Attempts at being irritating are just trivial at best.

[penguintruth]

There's a difference between freezing up in despair and consciously deciding, "Gee whiz, I dun wanna fight, so I'm gonna stand here with my thumb up my ass!"

He's paralyzed by his inability to bring forth his hidden power and his fear of what that might mean, losing control.

If you can't see the difference between that and just being suddenly pacifistic, it's pretty sad.

Maybe you didn't actually read my post due to some sort of reading difficulty, so I'll repeat: tomatoes, tomatos.

If Gohan won't actually try to stop him, no matter how little chances he believes he has, its the same thing as flat out refusing and has the same consequences. And that would actually be fine if Gohan actually wasn't portrayed differently earlier in the story. You see, I understood right from the start what was the reason provided by the story for Gohan's hesitation in the Cell Games, but that reason (Gohan not liking fights and not believing in himself, in his power and in that he could actually beat the villain), is nothing that didn't already existed earlier in the story. Gohan never liked fighting and he never believed that he could actually beat Freeza, for example. Did that stop him from trying his all and not hesitating agaisnt Freeza when his friends/family were in danger? NO. So, why is it suddenly different in the Cell Games? Because its useful to create some more drama. That's all.

Also, I could, once again, imitate you by throwing your "sad" comment back at you, but, once again, there is no reason to. Logical arguments speak for themselves. Attempts at being irritating are just trivial at best.

Maybe you didn't actually read my post due to some sort of reading difficulty, so I'll repeat: There's a difference between freezing up in despair and consciously deciding, "Gee whiz, I dun wanna fight, so I'm gonna stand here with my thumb up my ass!"

It's not the same as him refusing to fight, even if it has the same consequences. It's the reasoning behind it that makes it in character for Gohan, regardless of the consequences. Gohan wasn't put on the spot in any of those earlier story arcs to unleash a power beyond his father's to save everybody. He just did it as it came, spontaneously, without any real expectation. Whenever he was put on the spot, he froze up, just like he did in the Cell Games until 16's death was the last straw. The DESIRE to do something and the ABILITY to do it at a moment's notice are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. And it's the gulf between them that makes Gohan's actions COMPLETELY IN CHARACTER. THAT IS PRACTICALLY HIS ENTIRE CHARACTER.

Once again, logical arguments speak for themselves, for those of us with reading comprehension skills. The question at hand is whether the actions were OUT OF CHARACTER, that is, unusual for Gohan, not whether they were smart or right. And the answer is NO, they aren't out of character. At all. They are the actual basis of the entire character of Gohan.

[ABED]

We aren't talking about when Cell is beating up Gohan's loved ones.