Did Goku Need More Development?

[Basaku]

He's a child at heart in a lot of ways, and the very selfishness that makes him a real asshole if you think about it by real world standards, usually just makes you shake your head and go 'Oh that Goku'.

Key word - usually. But especially when it comes to being a father people are more often than not raising eyebrows on Goku and the notion that he's suppousedly 100.00% good pure hearted. Honestly, most would probably pick Vegeta for better father...

[thatdbzguy]

Mind actually posting a link to this panel? Time in the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuAWFaxlfdk

I'm on a computer without sound right now, so I can't pinpoint the exact time, but I think I remember it being one of the first questions asked, if not the first.

[ABED]

He's a child at heart in a lot of ways, and the very selfishness that makes him a real asshole if you think about it by real world standards, usually just makes you shake your head and go 'Oh that Goku'.

Key word - usually. But especially when it comes to being a father people are more often than not raising eyebrows on Goku and the notion that he's suppousedly 100.00% good pure hearted. Honestly, most would probably pick Vegeta for better father...

I wouldn't. Goku's not the best, but Vegeta is cold and distant, and he's also a mass murderer.

That said, while I don't think it's necessary that he needed more development, I would've liked if he realized how much he truly loved his family and decided to stay with them. It would've been more heartwarming than the actual ending, and I don't think it would've gone against his character. Maybe have a Rocky III ending between he and Vegeta for good measure.

[superfunk]

[quote="ABED]Goku's not the best, but Vegeta is cold and distant, and he's also a mass murderer.[/quote]

Yeah but it doesn't seem like main timeline Trunks minds at all, and Goku doesn't even love his kids in a traditional sense, while Vegeta does. Although it doesn't seem like gohan or goten resent Goku at all either.

I don't know if I could see Goku with any major development, he just wouldn't be "him".

[Basaku]

I wouldn't. Goku's not the best, but Vegeta is cold and distant, and he's also a mass murderer.

Vegeta will take you to park and shopping. Better father canon. I didn't notice any parks and shopping malls in Uub training area miles away or King Kai's planet in different dimesion.

[Kamiccolo9]

He's a child at heart in a lot of ways, and the very selfishness that makes him a real asshole if you think about it by real world standards, usually just makes you shake your head and go 'Oh that Goku'.

Key word - usually. But especially when it comes to being a father people are more often than not raising eyebrows on Goku and the notion that he's suppousedly 100.00% good pure hearted. Honestly, most would probably pick Vegeta for better father...

You can be a bad parent and still be a good person, as any number of doctors, lawyers, or teachers' kids could vouch for. Parenting ability is a skill, not a sign of moral character.

[ABED]

I wouldn't. Goku's not the best, but Vegeta is cold and distant, and he's also a mass murderer.

Vegeta will take you to park and shopping. Better father canon. I didn't notice any parks and shopping malls in Uub training area miles away or King Kai's planet in different dimesion.

Because that's what kids need, not security and comfort, and a responsible human being who hasn't butchered entire races.

Goku clearly loves his children, it's a complete stretch to claim Vegeta is in any way better. We see one moment of connection between Trunks and his dad - ONE.

[Basaku]

You can be a bad parent and still be a good person, as any number of doctors, lawyers, or teachers' kids could vouch for. Parenting ability is a skill, not a sign of moral character.

What you're talking about (I assume) is people going into demanding careers to provide best for their families, having little free time for playing etc with kids as a consequence. Rather different than not being with family because there's a chance for a good fight, or training someone thousands miles away for no reason, as if the training couldn't be done at Son residence...

Because that's what kids need, not security and comfort, and a responsible human being who hasn't butchered entire races.

joke <------

you ------>

Kid also needs the father to actually be in his life you know, not heading out with new pupil far away for anyone's guss how long

[ABED]

You can be a bad parent and still be a good person, as any number of doctors, lawyers, or teachers' kids could vouch for. Parenting ability is a skill, not a sign of moral character.

What you're talking about (I assume) is people going into demanding careers to provide best for their families, having little free time for playing etc with kids as a consequence. Rather different than not being with family because there's a chance for a good fight, or training someone thousands miles away for no reason, as if the training couldn't be done at Son residence...

Being a good provider isn't the same thing as being a parent. Parenting takes time and commitment. So what if Vegeta is in closer proximity? It's showed that he's emotionally distant. Plus, Goku was there for Gohan a lot, he was there for the first four years, the three year training period, and for that long stretch after the Buu arc. In fact, he didn't so much as visit his friends. I'm not claiming his the best parent, but you could do a lot worse. At least Goku left when his kids could take care of themselves.

Kid also needs the father to actually be in his life you know, not heading out with new pupil far away for anyone's guss how long

Not sure what the directional thing means. I was being facitious. In any case, Goku was in his kids' lives. Vegeta was barely in Trunks. Being in close proximity to a child isn't being a parent.

If we disregard GT, Goku can teleport to his family.

[Basaku]

If we disregard GT

[ABED]

If we disregard GT

I don't know what you're getting at.

[superfunk]

I wouldn't. Goku's not the best, but Vegeta is cold and distant, and he's also a mass murderer.

Vegeta will take you to park and shopping. Better father canon. I didn't notice any parks and shopping malls in Uub training area miles away or King Kai's planet in different dimesion.

Because that's what kids need, not security and comfort, and a responsible human being who hasn't butchered entire races.

Goku clearly loves his children, it's a complete stretch to claim Vegeta is in any way better. We see one moment of connection between Trunks and his dad - ONE.

That's why Goku saved Dende and mr.Satan instead of his own sons and didn't seem to care about it afterwards, while Vegeta berated him for not saving their sons. And why do you think vegeta didn't provide comfort and security, and you think Goku is a responsible person? Just because there is probably only one face to face "touching" moment between Vegeta and Trunks doesn't mean it's the only one, for example vegeta shows pride and concern over trunks when he fights goten, and there is his rage over future trunks. Toriyama himself says that Goku sees his kids as companions rather than family and that Vegeta is on the contrary. Post cell, it is definitely not a stretch to claim Vegeta is a better father, Goku is just the better person.

[ABED]

That's why Goku saved Dende and mr.Satan instead of his own sons and didn't seem to care about it afterwards, while Vegeta berated him for not saving their sons. And why do you think vegeta didn't provide comfort and security, and you think Goku is a responsible person? Just because there is probably only one face to face "touching" moment between Vegeta and Trunks doesn't mean it's the only one, for example vegeta shows pride and concern over trunks when he fights goten, and there is his rage over future trunks. Toriyama himself says that Goku sees his kids as companions rather than family and that Vegeta is on the contrary. Post cell, it is definitely not a stretch to claim Vegeta is a better father, Goku is just the better person.

Because Goku saw his kids and went "Screw em"? I find that to be a stretch. I don't see Vegeta getting Trunks either, and Goku was saddened by it, but he had work to do. Goku saving Dende and Satan seemed more a matter of plot convenience than anything character driven.

Vegeta didn't provide Trunks comfort because he's a mass murdering psychopath. Vegeta admits that him hugging Trunks had never happened before.

All of this doesn't matter because I don't care how good a father Mao or Stalin were, they were still Mao and Stalin. When does Vegeta show concern when Trunks is fighting Goten? How does that make him a better father than Goku? Where did Toriyama say Vegeta is a better family man?

[Basaku]

I don't know what you're getting at.

Your humor detector needs major fixing lol

[superfunk]

That's why Goku saved Dende and mr.Satan instead of his own sons and didn't seem to care about it afterwards, while Vegeta berated him for not saving their sons. And why do you think vegeta didn't provide comfort and security, and you think Goku is a responsible person? Just because there is probably only one face to face "touching" moment between Vegeta and Trunks doesn't mean it's the only one, for example vegeta shows pride and concern over trunks when he fights goten, and there is his rage over future trunks. Toriyama himself says that Goku sees his kids as companions rather than family and that Vegeta is on the contrary. Post cell, it is definitely not a stretch to claim Vegeta is a better father, Goku is just the better person.

Because Goku saw his kids and went "Screw em"? I find that to be a stretch. I don't see Vegeta getting Trunks either, and Goku was saddened by it, but he had work to do. Goku saving Dende and Satan seemed more a matter of plot convenience than anything character driven.

Vegeta didn't provide Trunks comfort because he's a mass murdering psychopath. Vegeta admits that him hugging Trunks had never happened before.

All of this doesn't matter because I don't care how good a father Mao or Stalin were, they were still Mao and Stalin. When does Vegeta show concern when Trunks is fighting Goten? How does that make him a better father than Goku? Where did Toriyama say Vegeta is a better family man?

You seem to be hung up on the fact that vegeta was a mass murderer and a bad person, I don't dispute that, I agree, I just think Vegeta is the better father, being a friendly person doesn't make you a better father, goku would hug frieza. When goten had trunks in a full nelson vegeta shows concern(I think it's anime only) when trunks wins vegeta smiles and says something about trunks having better genes(yes in the manga). They both have work to do in the buu saga when their sons die but vegeta is the one that shows far more concern( I thought vegeta was the cold one). There is an interview on this site(the one that contains information on goku's mom) where Toriyama says that vegeta has a stronger sense of family while goku sees chichi,gohan and goten as companions and not family.

[ABED]

I don't know what you're getting at.

Your humor detector needs major fixing lol

Because you're so funny?

I'm hung up on it because it's pertinent, that automatically disqualifies him from being a good father. That in combonation with his coldness with his son. Good lord, he punches his son out of frustration, that's GREAT parenting.

[VegettoEX]

Enough with the attitudes.

Furthermore, it's pretty obvious - between this and the "out of character" discussions - you folks are just sitting here refreshing waiting for a response so you can then respond again. Please don't do that. You're not going to be able to put forth the thought and time necessary for what the rest of the community expects of you, and in turn that's not going to get the best responses out of other people. It fosters a really unfortunate discussion cycle.

Take your time. Form your thoughts. Remember that you're typing responses to other, real-life human beings.

[superfunk]

I don't know what you're getting at.

Your humor detector needs major fixing lol

Because you're so funny?

I'm hung up on it because it's pertinent, that automatically disqualifies him from being a good father. That in combonation with his coldness with his son. Good lord, he punches his son out of frustration, that's GREAT parenting.

Automatically disqualifies him from being a good father? Not according to Toriyama and the DB universe it doesn't, in a fictional story that is all that counts, and even if he is a bad parent, Goku is worse.

[DoomieDoomie911]

I don't think Goku really needed character development. Goku just isn't a deep character, but that's not saying he's a bad character. Sometimes simple characters are the best.

[ABED]

Automatically disqualifies him from being a good father? Not according to Toriyama and the DB universe it doesn't, in a fictional story that is all that counts, and even if he is a bad parent, Goku is worse.

Yeah, this is a fictional universe where you can pile up a mountain of dead bodies that would make Mao say, "that's extreme!"

What would ever lead you to say Vegeta's better? What actions specifically on his part scream that to be the case? He doesn't hang around Trunks, and he punches him out of frustration. Goku isn't always around, but he was around for the first years of Gohan's life, and the 3 or 4 years after he got back from Namek. It's clear that he loves his son, and shows affection for him. He never punched Gohan out of frustration. The one time he did hit him was to protect him from rushing to his death. When he comes back to life, the first thing he does is embrace the son he didn't know he had. And he comes back to life the next day and spends the next couple years with his family. Yes, he flies off with Uub, but he can teleport. Tell me what Vegeta has over him?

Sometimes simple characters are the best.

Very true. I love Community, clearly, and Abed doesn't really change, but he's the best character on the show.