The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Zephyr » Fri May 02, 2014 2:11 pm

Herms wrote:Toriyama's explanation here doesn't match what Elder Kaioshin says in the manga very well either. In the manga, EK says he got sealed away by a super strong, super evil dude (that was still weaker than Buu), because the guy was afraid of EK's power-up ability. Here, Toriyama says it was because EK got into an argument with Beerus (a not all that evil guy who's way stronger than Buu) over some piddling little thing.
I'm thinking that what Toriyama said here is what actually happened, and possibly EK was taking some liberties with the backstory of his power-up ability in order to make it seem more desirable?

As for the 3 Kaioshin thing....maybe he was referring to each of the 5 Kaioshin would rotate in groups of three every so often? Like there are 3 East Kaioshin that all take shifts, 3 West Kaioshin, etc. Only, there aren't anymore to take up shifts at the moment.

I'm seeing his lifespan for the Kaioshin being him mistaking the lifespan for the regular Shinjin, like "oh well I mentioned at some point in some way before that these god people live for X amount of time, so...I'll just use that again!"

I kind of wish that instead of having Toriyama just say things like this, he'd have some lore expert on the series sit there to let him know when the shit he plans to say is totally contradictory or conflicting so he can revise it until it's not anymore. But then, I feel like that would be too much work in his eyes.
Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:He said that Beerus got annoyed at a meeting and that caused him to seal the Old Kaioshin away. It definitely sounds like something Beerus would do.
I'm not sure, it seems like he would have just tried destroying things.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by coola » Fri May 02, 2014 2:20 pm

Herms wrote:Initial thoughts:

--The Satan and his master vs Tao Pai Pai thing is a tad odd when considering official ages and the timeline and whatnot. Satan's supposed to be the same age as Kuririn, so he'd still be a kid when Tao Pai Pai got beaten by Goku. Meaning either the barroom brawl happened with cyborg TPP (would they really casually make fun of a cyborg dude?), or Satan became world champion while still in his early teens.
Well, we seen Mr.Satan mocking Cell and Buu before fight, before he "fight" with them, he was very cocky. Story kinda remind me of Dan from Street Fighter series (Both lost father, and both are comedy fighters)
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Low Tone G » Fri May 02, 2014 2:34 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Herms wrote:Toriyama's explanation here doesn't match what Elder Kaioshin says in the manga very well either. In the manga, EK says he got sealed away by a super strong, super evil dude (that was still weaker than Buu), because the guy was afraid of EK's power-up ability. Here, Toriyama says it was because EK got into an argument with Beerus (a not all that evil guy who's way stronger than Buu) over some piddling little thing.
I'm thinking that what Toriyama said here is what actually happened, and possibly EK was taking some liberties with the backstory of his power-up ability in order to make it seem more desirable?

As for the 3 Kaioshin thing....maybe he was referring to each of the 5 Kaioshin would rotate in groups of three every so often? Like there are 3 East Kaioshin that all take shifts, 3 West Kaioshin, etc. Only, there aren't anymore to take up shifts at the moment.

I'm seeing his lifespan for the Kaioshin being him mistaking the lifespan for the regular Shinjin, like "oh well I mentioned at some point in some way before that these god people live for X amount of time, so...I'll just use that again!"
It couldn't be that the Dai Kaioshins are the ones who change themselves? I mean the Dai Kaioshin is supposed be the one who creates new planets, as the East Kaioshin doesn't really do anything other than whatching the planets :) As for ability unlock to be more desirable.... I like it this explanation, as Old Kai seems to be very vain. :P
Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:
He said that Beerus got annoyed at a meeting and that caused him to seal the Old Kaioshin away. It definitely sounds like something Beerus would do.


I'm not sure, it seems like he would have just tried destroying things.
But he doesn't have the right to destroy in the Kai's realm, so he better sealed the the Old guy, I suppose for a dumb reason. :P
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri May 02, 2014 3:06 pm

Good God, what a clusterfuck of crap. I mean, if Toriyama can't even keep straight random shit he made up 5 years ago with random shit he's making up now, then he has no business trying to fill in non-gaps in a story he wrote 20-30 years ago! I can't see a single good thing in here aside from the Kuririn/#18 thing, which, as Herms pointed out, isn't new information. There are the blatant contradictions, the prequelitis-suffering, universe-shrinking tidbits (like Tao Pai Pai being involved in Mr. Satan's backstory and Beerus being involved in every damn thing), and the ones that just make you go, "Um... why? What's the point?" (Bibidi NOT creating Boo)

Sigh. Toriyama. Please stop. Ooishi. Stop asking him questions. Your track record with this franchise is already bad enough.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Makaioshin » Fri May 02, 2014 3:16 pm

Nuwemwittsimwawaay.

Mr. Satan now has the same backstory as many classic martial arts movie protagonists. Not too sure how I feel about this tidbit. It gives Satan a connection to DB's martial world(which is something that I've always felt he lacked despite being champion) but it also makes things feel a bit too connected. I hope that makes sense.

I'm sure many people will be upset by his comments regarding Super Saiyan 2 & 3 but it makes sense given Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan God. I have also never been a fan of 3's design and 2 didn't really stand out. He also totally ignores her mentioning Super Saiyan 4 because.

I'm indifferent to most of the other stuff. I guess the new Boo origin is supposed to make him feel like a bigger player in the DB cosmos...but he was already a god killer? At least we finally know that Vegeta never actually went to a bargain sale.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri May 02, 2014 3:23 pm

So, let's get my 5,000 post out of the way on a positive note! The interview wasn't all bad, here's the stuff I'm totally fine with.

Mr. Satan getting his name from the dojo he trained at. No issue here, and it adds some to his backstory without contradicting anything. And confirming that he and Videl are the only living members of his family was good for settling that.

The reincarnation thing was interesting, and the Buu not needing energy and just really liking candy was a nice touch.

The sealing spell was pointless, but whatever. It doesn't hurt anything.

I like the idea of occasional meetings between the Kaioshin and the Hakaioshin.

The Krillin and 18 stuff was ok.

The explanation for Vegeta's bargain bin sale quote made me laugh. Best part of the entire interview. I find the idea of Vegeta lounging around watching TV hilarious for some reason.

And the origin of the Tenkaichi Budokai was cool.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 02, 2014 3:28 pm

The Kaioshin stuff contradicts the manga, but how exactly does it contradict SEG again? :eh:
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Kakarot88 » Fri May 02, 2014 3:48 pm

I think Boo being an immortal evil force that Bibidi summons makes the story better, because it enforces the Jinn aspects of Boo!

My personal favorite is Goku likely only going Super Saiyan now...AWESOME! Friggen love that so much more and makes a lot of sense especially with the whole full powered Super Saiyan thing.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by mAcChaos » Fri May 02, 2014 4:20 pm

That Buu sealing spell has to be a pun or something. There's no way Toriyama would be so specific and just throw out random letters.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri May 02, 2014 4:26 pm

Dear Mr. Toriyama:

Stop. Just stop. I was pretty excited today when I saw that yet another Q and A had been translated. And even better, it was about my favorite arc, which focuses on my favorite character. Then I read it.

The stuff about Mr. Satan is... not good, but not bad. I like knowing some more about him, but I don't appreciate [Toriyama] having to have everyone know each other. Makes the universe feel tiny. I always assumed Satan had no other relatives anyway, so that last tidbit wasn't a surprise for me.

The part about the Tenkaichi Budokai was a nice little world building factoid. The bits about Vegeta and Krillin were boring but harmless.

The problem comes with the big stuff, the Kaioshin and Buu. First of all, only three questions were asked about Buu, which is kinda disappointing (then again, there's still more Q and A sessions). But more importantly...
Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bidid, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.
That sentence right there is this Q and A and a lot of Toriyama's more recent involvement in general in a nutshell. "The actual damn manga said this, but what really happened was...". Goku's mission, Old Kai's old enemy, Commander Red's position, Buu's origin... all of it is getting retconned away by poorly thought out BS that did not need to exist.

Why does Toriyama have to retroactively contradict his own manga? How does this in any way improve the story? In fact, contrary to the whole purpose of a Q and A, all this did was create more questions and gut the story. "Remember that clearly spelled out origin for Buu? Yeah that's wrong now. New origin? There is no new origin, he's just a guy that existed". What was wrong with Buu just being a freak accident created by a powerful magical wizard?

And before anyone says "he didn't contradict anything, I mean Kaioshin could've been wrong...". Technically, that's true, but... I'll just quote Gaffer here:
Well, that's exactly what I said in my post. None of these things have to be plot holes if you squint hard enough. But Raditz's initial monologue has been retconned so many times that, if you go back and watch/read it now, rather than being shocking information, it's worthless, because he's apparently wrong about everything! I'm just saying that, the difference up until now, was that at least they'd been changes for the sake of something. With DB Minus, given that it actually damages the story AND is just one more thing to add to the list of things Raditz got wrong, it's a lot harder to justify. It's getting to the point where it's no longer worth expelling the effort to suspend my disbelief. It's not about whether we CAN make the plot holes work because of course we can. It's about whether it's WORTH IT to do so, if what's being told DESERVES it.
The part about Buu not needing energy is nothing new, and the spell Bibidi uses is just... why did we need to know that?
No one can [become a Kaioshin]. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their lifespans are about 75,000 years.
This is just a whole big pile of nonsense. It completely contradicts Toriyama's own words from 2008. What's with Kaioshin's age? Isn't a young one said to be 5 million? What's this about there being three of them? There were clearly five. Maybe he's talking about there being, for example, three West Kaioshins, but if that's the case where have the other two been for the last 5 million years, and why does our East Kaioshin never mention them?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaioshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus
Probably my least favorite part of the whole interview. Old Kai established his old enemy as someone weaker than Majin Buu, so why say it was Beerus, who is stronger than Buu? What is gained out of erasing that information? Most importantly, why does Toriyama keep trying to insert concepts from that shitty movie into EVERYTHING? It rarely if ever makes any sense.

I hope he can provide actually meaningful and interesting information in the next Q and A, but at the moment my stance is pretty much "someone get this man as far away from the franchise as possible".
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Fri May 02, 2014 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri May 02, 2014 4:28 pm

So...do we say Toriyama is George Lucasing Dragon ball yet?
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by The Tori-bot » Fri May 02, 2014 4:31 pm

Count me as someone who can actually get behind the new Buu info. He's always been a little "Cell... IN SPAAAAACE!", so this added dimension to his origins is very welcome and interesting to me. Eternal being of chaos just seems to fit him better and gives him some more mystery.

Mr Satan and Taopaipai was... cool, I guess? The rest was meh.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri May 02, 2014 4:32 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:So...do we say Toriyama is George Lucasing Dragon ball yet?
I'm surprised that the newer manga releases weren't modified to make it look like Nappa shot a ki blast at Vegeta first.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri May 02, 2014 4:34 pm

Decent interview. Good to know who steal up the Elder Kaioshin, but his statement is now retcon for good now. I won't call Toriyama the new George Lucas unless he chooses to remake everything in the manga.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri May 02, 2014 4:34 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:So...do we say Toriyama is George Lucasing Dragon ball yet?
I'm surprised that the newer manga releases weren't modified to make it look like Nappa shot a ki blast at Vegeta first.
I knew Vegeta wasn't heartless. Also that whole story about Freeza making Vegeta evil is true as well. After all the past Saiyans are starting to seem less evil now a days. :roll:
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Marco Polo » Fri May 02, 2014 4:38 pm

The Q&A only says that Buu is older than Bibidi, it doesn't say he is an eternal force or anything. As far as we know he's just a (very) powerful being with a (very) long lifespan.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by Cold Skin » Fri May 02, 2014 4:38 pm

Ah! If the Ancestral Kaio Shin mentionned someone sealing him away cause he was scared of him, it had to be a lie! A kid would guess that coming from that old guy.
So yeah, reading Toriyama's explanation, of course it happened that way! :thumbup:
Beerus is indeed a force that has a certain reputation among the universe's high instances, and you can understand more and more why.

All the rest is great info as always, making sense and making the story deeper in a clever way.
It changes the vision of the original story for something cleverer.
Majin Boo is a much better as a natural force of the universe rather than as a creation by some little wizard scum.

Mr. Satan's new info gives him more humanity, as you understand his attitude of absolutely not wanting to fight extraordinary opponents.
He proves his heroic side at the end of the Boo arc, but the guy is just not a coward for the sake of being a coward, he did live something serious back then, and it gives his comical personnality all the more charm.

Vegeta not going to a bargain sale would be logical as Toriyama explained, and the anime got something right with Movie 9: Vegeta can watch TV sometimes. But I'm thinking it might have been during lunch or something that the family might watch TV, not really a choice on Vegeta's part, more like it happened to be at a moment where he has to watch TV with the rest like at dinner during the news or something.

The rest seems logical too, sometimes it's things we could have guessed on our own.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 02, 2014 4:41 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:So...do we say Toriyama is George Lucasing Dragon ball yet?
You can't say that when the events of these interviews only affect these interviews. Reality hasn't warped, that's evident by our memories remaining in tact. Just because Vegeta tells Freeza that Zarbon revealed Freeza could transform it doesn't mean the scene in which Vegeta learns of this is actually in the Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball Kai cartoons. Everything happens where everything happens...these interviews just so happen to only happen in these interviews, lest a future work adapts these texts.

Anyhoo, I can't bring myself to care about contradictions willing or not. That takes too much physical and mental stamina. Nevertheless, I think Toriyama's works here are interesting enough premises. Mister Satan's would be a nice gag story to see unfold as a comic or cartoon. The new origin for Majin Buu would be interesting to see in story-form, too. An even that has always been? Surely there's a way that can be turned into a indirect foe for Son Gokuu and friends to combat? I also like the idea that Gokuu 'probably won't' use Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 anymore. I would like to see how that is dealt with between the characters and as part of the story. Perhaps a line like "Wow, Gokuu is so powerful even without being a Super Saiyan!" It would also streamline the battles. In terms of main points a fight really only needs one transformation, although having a 'Super' form and an 'Ultimate' form like Super Saiyan God for final bosses would be neat.
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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 02, 2014 4:43 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Probably my least favorite part of the whole interview. Old Kai established his old enemy as someone weaker than Majin Buu, so why say it was Beerus, who is stronger than Buu?
Beerus is stronger than Boo in the present. This was 75 million years ago.

Personally, I find this very interesting, because it shows that Beerus isn't so strong because he is a god, but because he trained for dozens of millions of years.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri May 02, 2014 4:50 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Probably my least favorite part of the whole interview. Old Kai established his old enemy as someone weaker than Majin Buu, so why say it was Beerus, who is stronger than Buu?
Beerus is stronger than Boo in the present. This was 75 million years ago.

Personally, I find this very interesting, because it shows that Beerus isn't so strong because he is a god, but because he trained for dozens of millions of years.
Still doesn't change the fact that he said the enemy sealed him because of fear or his abilities. Sure, if you want you can start warping the manga and saying "Old Kai lied, this scene exists to confuse us", but... well, see the quoted post from Gaffer.

If that was the case, it should have been made explicit, yet it wasn't. I bet you ten bucks that wasn't what Toriyama had in mind. I'm just extremely annoyed in general by Toriyama continually attempting to tie in this piece of shit to the manga that ended 20 years before it was made. Especially with all the retcons in an attempt to disguise the fact that Beerus comes out of absolutely nowhere.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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