Which Saiyans are Middle Class?

[Bullza]

No, Toriyama said that the only ones with insane power and abnormal cruelty were Cold & Freeza.

Why are you saying no when that's what I also said...

So Chilled isn't cruel? The guy who planned to kill people, killed his own guy just because he stood infront of him, attacked a village full of innocents, who was a space pirate, who made threats of death? That doesn't count as being cruel?

Chilled bled from base Bardock's punch, meaning that he was a weakling. Probably weaker than even First Form Freeza.

That doesn't mean squat as Bardock does have abnormal power when compared to an average joe and Chilled beat the tar out of him after. He also survived SSJ Bardock's attack and has enough power to blow up a planet, regardless if he's weaker than Frieza or not he still obviously has abnormal power.

Plus, it barely has any references to the TV Special, meaning that it can fit in Toriyama's continuity.

No it can't with what Toriyama has said. If King Cold is a mutant and it's why he and his son are so powerful then why is there this other powerful being named Chilled that looks like those two around before King Cold? What's this about Chilled having a family when apparently King Cold and Frieza are two of a kind?

Why is Bardock a Super Saiyan who is only at the high end of the low class but not a middle class? SSJ Bardock is weaker than Nappa?

It's not canon. It being made to look like the old manga doesn't mean squat either, it's just a design choice.

[FoolsGil]

Going back to second class warriors, I'm glad AT changed things. We've gone back and forth on what's Nappa true power level, and a part of that is due to talk saying he was an elite. But with him as an elite with a pl of only 4000, made no sense, and I was saying Nappa had to be at least 6000. with AT confirming now that Nappa is middle class, perhaps even low class with Raditz, I have no issue with Nappa being low as he is.

[Saiga]

Going back to second class warriors, I'm glad AT changed things. We've gone back and forth on what's Nappa true power level, and a part of that is due to talk saying he was an elite. But with him as an elite with a pl of only 4000, made no sense, and I was saying Nappa had to be at least 6000. with AT confirming now that Nappa is middle class, perhaps even low class with Raditz, I have no issue with Nappa being low as he is.

I don't see it as making any difference. Both manga and the interview present us with a 3 class structure that's identical except for naming. Just because the middle class call themselves elite doesn't change that they're between the top class and the low class.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why are you saying no when that's what I also said...

So Chilled isn't cruel? The guy who planned to kill people, killed his own guy just because he stood infront of him, attacked a village full of innocents, who was a space pirate, who made threats of death? That doesn't count as being cruel?

He is cruel, but not insanely strong. Hence why Toriyama never mentioned him.

That doesn't mean squat as Bardock does have abnormal power when compared to an average joe and Chilled beat the tar out of him after. He also survived SSJ Bardock's attack and has enough power to blow up a planet, regardless if he's weaker than Freeza or not he still obviously has abnormal power.

Bardock is weaker than Nappa.

No it can't with what Toriyama has said. If King Cold is a mutant and it's why he and his son are so powerful then why is there this other powerful being named Chilled that looks like those two around before King Cold? What's this about Chilled having a family when apparently King Cold and Freeza are two of a kind?

Again, they are the only two of their kind that have both an abnormal battle power and cruelty. Chilled cruel, but not as powerful as them.

Why is Bardock a Super Saiyan who is only at the high end of the low class but not a middle class? SSJ Bardock is weaker than Nappa?

Checking the interview again, it seems that base Bardock in EoB is indeed weaker than Nappa. But SS Bardock isn't weaker than Nappa.

[Low Tone G]

Checking the interview again, it seems that base Bardock in EoB is indeed weaker than Nappa. But SS Bardock isn't weaker than Nappa.

But for my it's hard to accept a low-class warrior can become a Super Saiyan, when Goku was in base stronger than SSJ Bardock, if Bardock was really that weak before. I've always thought that a saiyan should have a critical base power to have the potential to become Super Saiyan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But for my it's hard to accept a low-class warrior can become a Super Saiyan, when Goku was in base stronger than SSJ Bardock, if Bardock was really that weak before. I've always thought that a saiyan should have a critical base power to have the potential to become Super Saiyan.

The conditions to transform into a Super Saiyan are these according to the guidebooks:

• High battle power above the standard level.
• Tranquil heart.
• A dangerous situation.
• Extreme anger.

Bardock had a tranquil heart, thanks to Gine who softened him. He was born as a low-class warrior, and his battle power was high for a low-class. Bardock's fight with the much stronger Chilled was the dangerous situation. He was very angry with Freeza and with himself for being so weak that he couldn't protect his comrades before, and he can't even do the same again. BOOM, Super Saiyan Bardock.

[Low Tone G]

But for my it's hard to accept a low-class warrior can become a Super Saiyan, when Goku was in base stronger than SSJ Bardock, if Bardock was really that weak before. I've always thought that a saiyan should have a critical base power to have the potential to become Super Saiyan.

The conditions to transform into a Super Saiyan are these according to the guidebooks:

• High battle power above the standard level.
• Tranquil heart.
• A dangerous situation.
• Extreme anger.

Bardock had a tranquil heart, thanks to Gine who softened him. He was born as a low-class warrior, and his battle power was high for a low-class. Bardock's fight with the much stronger Chilled was the dangerous situation. He was very angry with Freeza and with himself for being so weak that he couldn't protect his comrades before, and he can't even do the same again. BOOM, Super Saiyan Bardock.

So that's why you assume Toriyama spoke about Bardock's power prior the the destruction of Vegeta? Could it be that he was implying Bardock's power level in Dragon Ball Minus in that interview?

[Bullza]

He is cruel, but not insanely strong. Hence why Toriyama never mentioned him.

Toriyama said abnormally strong and that's what Chilled is. Mr Satan is someone that isn't abnormally strong but someone who can blow up a planet is abnormally strong. Whether he's as strong as some others doesn't stop that fact.

Bardock is weaker than Nappa.

In base most likely if we assume that Nappa is middle class which he may not be going by him having equal status to Raditz. However as a Super Saiyan he is vastly more powerful and obviously not at the high end of the low class and don't think that Toriyama is specially talking about base Bardock because you know that wouldn't be true.

Again, they are the only two of their kind that have both an abnormal battle power and cruelty. Chilled cruel, but not as powerful as them.

He doesn't have to be he still obviously has an abnormal battle power if he can blow up a planet.

As I said if King Cold was some mutant which was the reason why he had so much power and he gave birth to Frieza and it's why he also has so much power. Then why are there people (apparently a whole family of them) from before King Cold was born that resemble him who are also really vicious and powerful.

Chilled didn't get mentioned just like Cooler also didn't get mentioned because neither are canon.

[Low Tone G]

The strory tends to be more and more weird for me. The interview was right about Episode of Bardock, and Toriyama never mentioned anytime that he doesn't treat Bardock's adventure in the past real, but never really confirmed it was.

[Pantalones]

Toriyama said abnormally strong and that's what Chilled is. Mr Satan is someone that isn't abnormally strong but someone who can blow up a planet is abnormally strong. Whether he's as strong as some others doesn't stop that fact.

The problem is, you can't be "abnormally strong" without a "normal" to compare to. We don't know how strong an ordinary member of Freeza/Cold/Chilled's species is. Maybe they're all in the range of planet-destroying power (which only takes 24,000 or so if you assume Vegeta really could've destroyed Earth with the Gallic Gun blast that was clashing with Goku's Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha during their fight), and King Cold and Freeza were so abnormal because their power levels were in the millions without even needing to train like crazy to get there.

20,000 or so is abnormally strong compared to ordinary humans or even Saiyans, but maybe that's average for whatever species Chilled/Cold/Freeza are. Just like how a power level of 139 was abnormally strong on Earth prior to Goku and Piccolo showing up, because the ordinary citizen is more like 5. And how Broly's 10,000 at birth was abnormally strong for a Saiyan because normally only the highest elites reach those kinds of levels (as adults.) And how Nail's 42,000 was amazing to the other Namekians because the strongest warriors aside from him were only in the 3000-to-10,000 range. And so on.

"Abnormally strong" isn't a set level that's constant across all species, it depends on what "normal" is for the species in question.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama said abnormally strong and that's what Chilled is. Mr Satan is someone that isn't abnormally strong but someone who can blow up a planet is abnormally strong. Whether he's as strong as some others doesn't stop that fact.

No, abnormally strong are Goku & Vegeta while fighting Freeza, the Ginyu Tokusentai, Freeza, etc. We've seen having a battle power of, say, 20.000 wasn't very uncommon.

In base most likely if we assume that Nappa is middle class which he may not be going by him having equal status to Raditz. However as a Super Saiyan he is vastly more powerful and obviously not at the high end of the low class and don't think that Toriyama is specially talking about base Bardock because you know that wouldn't be true.

Toriyama was talking about base Bardock. He says nothing about Super Saiyan.

As I said if King Cold was some mutant which was the reason why he had so much power and he gave birth to Freeza and it's why he also has so much power. Then why are there people (apparently a whole family of them) from before King Cold was born that resemble him who are also really vicious and powerful.

King Cold's ancestors (including Chilled) weren't abnormally strong, while Cold & Freeza were. That's all that Toriyama says. Cold is the mutant of the race according to Toriyama, and Freeza is also one because his is his son.

The strory tends to be more and more weird for me. The interview was right about Episode of Bardock, and Toriyama never mentioned anytime that he doesn't treat Bardock's adventure in the past real, but never really confirmed it was.

Well, almost none of the questions were about EoB. The only think that he was asked about it was Bardock's BP during EoB, and he said that he was one of the strongest low-class warrior that couldn't become a mid-class warrior. So, he was either talking about base Bardock in EoB, or about Bardock in DB-, or maybe even both, if Bardock didn't get a near-death power-up. The reason he didn't mention Super Saiyan could be because Super Saiyan can't be classified in the ranking system of the Saiyans.

Or, he doesn't consider EoB canon.

[Bullza]

We don't know how strong an ordinary member of Freeza/Cold/Chilled's species is.

His comment doesn't have to be in comparison to other members of his race. Surely he'd say Buu had abnormal power because he does but he is one a kind.

[Bullza]

No, abnormally strong are Goku & Vegeta while fighting Freeza, the Ginyu Tokusentai, Freeza, etc. We've seen having a battle power of, say, 20.000 wasn't very uncommon.

Who said Chilled' power level was anywhere near that low. Assuming Nappa was a mid class saiyan then Bardock's power level as a Super Saiyan could be as high as 150,000. Chilled would have never have survived with a small power level.

If Nappa was just a low class saiyan then SSJ Bardock's power level could have been several hundred thousand.

That is abnormal.

Toriyama was talking about base Bardock. He says nothing about Super Saiyan.

That's because as far as he's concerned there is no Super Saiyan Bardock it never happened. He never said "base" anything though.

He said if their power level rose greatly then they could be promoted. In the special Bardock became Super Saiyan and his power level obviously rose greatly and despite that he still said that he was only a low class.

King Cold's ancestors (including Chilled) weren't abnormally strong, while Cold & Freeza were. That's all that Toriyama says. Cold is the mutant of the race according to Toriyama, and Freeza is also one because his is his son.

That assumes he even had any ancestors, Toriyama put an emphasis on their race. He said Frieza was a mutated life form and King Cold a mutant, they may have been nothing like them before, King Cold could be some experiment that was created.

Any character who can blow up planets and survive attacks from Super Saiyans are abnormally strong and it still doesn't excuse them about being cruel.

Toriyama didn't even write that special to begin with so I don't know why you'd think it'd be anymore canon than the Cooler movies. His comments make sense assuming it isn't canon and don't otherwise.

Bardock said the planet looked like Vegeta but it looked nothing like that in Minus.

[TKA]

I don't see why this is causing confusion. The classes we had before were: Low-class, elite and super elite. Three classes. Here Toriyama gives us: Low-class, mid-class and elite. Occam's Razor dictates we just slap them on the corresponding tiers from the previous classes we got. It's also the most logical course of action, unless we get something that outright contradicts (in which case we go with the manga).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Who said Chilled' power level was anywhere near that low. Assuming Nappa was a mid class saiyan then Bardock's power level as a Super Saiyan could be as high as 150,000. Chilled would have never have survived with a small power level.

If Nappa was just a low class saiyan then SSJ Bardock's power level could have been several hundred thousand.

That is abnormal.

The weaker abnormal guys (abnormal enough to be considered mutants) we know are the Ginyu Tokusentai (Reacoom, Butta, Jheese), who have BP somewhere between 30.000 and 60.000. Chilled could have been above 60.000, even at 500.000, but compared to Freeza (120.000.000, even stronger as Mecha Freeza) & Cold (around 3.000.000?), he is not abnormally strong.

That's because as far as he's concerned there is no Super Saiyan Bardock it never happened. He never said "base" anything though.

Or, he is only talking about his Bardock, who appears in DB-, and isn't a Super Saiyan yet.

He said if their power level rose greatly then they could be promoted. In the special Bardock became Super Saiyan and his power level obviously rose greatly and despite that he still said that he was only a low class.

Bardock can't be promoted when there are no Saiyans around.

That assumes he even had any ancestors, Toriyama put an emphasis on their race. He said Freeza was a mutated life form and King Cold a mutant, they may have been nothing like them before, King Cold could be some experiment that was created.

Going by EoB, there are ancestors. And going by Toriyama, these ancestors are not even close to as powerful as Freeza & Cold.

[Bullza]

That wasn't the question though he was asked how strong Bardock would have gotten.

The interviewer is the same person who wrote EoB, if it were canon and her story then why is she asking how powerful Bardock would have become if he wasn't defeated by Frieza and if he had continued his growth? She just wrote the story where he survived and became a Super Saiyan she should know the answer.

She's asking this going by the knowledge that Bardock did in fact die against Frieza. Toriyama's answer that he was only a low class Saiyan who isn't able to become a middle class Saiyan (he didn't say he couldn't be promoted due to their being no other saiyans, presumably he just wouldn't have grown strong enough) goes perfectly in line with EoB not happening.

Toriyama said nothing that even acknowledged EoB as happening.

If Cooler obviously isn't canon and he actually makes more sense being King Cold's son which explains why he's powerful then why is it hard to believe that another story also not by Toriyama isn't canon?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Bardock said the planet looked like Vegeta but it looked nothing like that in Minus.

Does every single place on Earth look the same? Just because nature was lazy with Namek doesn't mean that this goes for every planet.

That wasn't the question though he was asked how strong Bardock would have gotten.

And Toriyama used present sentence to describe Bardock's power. Checking again (yep, for a millionth time :Ρ), Toriyama is using present sentence. And he was asked about Bardock's power in EoB. So, it seems that, if Toriyama was talking about EoB Bardock, he is still weaker than a mid-class warrior, in base obviously, since Oozaru & Super Saiyan aren't ranked. If not, he is talking about DB-/manga Bardock.

The interviewer is the same person who wrote EoB, if it were canon and her story then why is she asking how powerful Bardock would have become if he wasn't defeated by Freeza and if he had continued his growth? She just wrote the story where he survived and became a Super Saiyan she should know the answer.

She's asking this going by the knowledge that Bardock did in fact die against Freeza.

She wanted to know Toriyama's thoughts on it, and probably considered the possibility that Toriyama doesn't consider EoB as part of the story.

Toriyama said nothing that even acknowledged EoB as happening.

He didn't do the opposite either, because he barely talked about it. The only EoB-related question in the whole interview was about his battle power in EoB.

If Cooler obviously isn't canon and he actually makes more sense being King Cold's son which explains why he's powerful then why is it hard to believe that another story also not by Toriyama isn't canon?

Coola comes from an anime movie. Chilled comes from a manga covered in a manga guidebook, that doesn't really follow the anime.

[Bullza]

Does every single place on Earth look the same? Just because nature was lazy with Namek doesn't mean that this goes for every planet.

Well it seemed that way with the Kaioshin planet at least. It could be two different areas but it's just another thing that can be said to separate the two whereas there's nothing that proves Toriyama acknowledges EoB as happening.

And Toriyama used present sentence to describe Bardock's power.

That's because to him Bardock has no future. He talked about King Cold and Frieza in present tense aswell so that doesn't really mean anything. The point here is that the writer of EoB is asking Toriyama how strong Bardock would have gotten if he wasn't defeated by Frieza as if her story was just some what if side story.

And he was asked about Bardock's power in EoB.

Which makes no sense why the creator of that work is asking someone else a question about her own work. That's like Toriyama asking Ooshi how strong Beerus is in Battle of Gods. The EoB part was put in brackets aswell so who knows how that was all asked.

Still it's absurd to believe that Bardock became the real legendary Super Saiyan yet he's not able to become a middle class.

She wanted to know Toriyama's thoughts on it, and probably considered the possibility that Toriyama doesn't consider EoB as part of the story.

If it really were canon then should be no possibility about it. You think Ooshi wrote a canon storyline without clearing it by Toriyama first? She knows her story is just a what if story and she was asking because she wanted to know what the true version of that question is.

He didn't do the opposite either, because he barely talked about it.

Exactly he didn't acknowledge anything about it. Everything he said was as if EoB didn't exist, no mention of Bardock becoming Super Saiyan or surviving or Chilled or how Planet Vegeta was really Planet Plant or anything.

All you're left with is trying to somehow fit these answers in like Super Saiyan doesn't count in the rankings or Chilled wasn't as strong as Frieza even though he obviously is abnormally powerful and cruel or assuming he's talking about certain things as of certain points in the story.

Coola comes from an anime movie. Chilled comes from a manga covered in a manga guidebook, that doesn't really follow the anime.

Well if it's manga of course it'd be in a manga guidebook. Aren't the anime movie covered in anime guidebooks? Where else can it be.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

there's nothing that proves Toriyama acknowledges EoB as happening.

And there is nothing that proves Toriyama not acknowledging EoB as happening as well.

That's because to him Bardock has no future.

Of course he has no future, he's been dead for a thousand years.

The point here is that the writer of EoB is asking Toriyama how strong Bardock would have gotten if he wasn't defeated by Freeza as if her story was just some what if side story.

Or, she is asking it like that because she doesn't know if Toriyama acknowledges her story.

Which makes no sense why the creator of that work is asking someone else a question about her own work.

But that's not her character. It's like when we ask battle powers in the forum. I would say "So, I have this character at 1 million, what's his battle power in your opinion?". She wants to know Toriyama's opinion in the subject.

Still it's absurd to believe that Bardock became the real legendary Super Saiyan yet he's not able to become a middle class.

For you, yes.

If it really were canon then should be no possibility about it.

When an official canon doesn't exists, there are many possibilities. Toriyama doesn't go and say "the manga and my works are the canon". Others just write their stories (Toei, Ooishi, Toyotaro, etc), and if he wants to, he refers them in his works. If he doesn't want to, he contradicts them. He may do both if he wants.

You think Ooshi wrote a canon storyline without clearing it by Toriyama first?

It's not like Toriyama didn't have any involvement in it. He designed Chilled & the Plantians, and he also acted as a supervisor. Of course, that level of involvement was the same as with the anime, but this is a new manga, not an adaptation. Plus, Toriyama was also involved with the JSAT manga by Ooishi, where he supervised & advised her, and talked as if it was new a new extra manga chapter that Ooishi made in his place.

Exactly he didn't acknowledge anything about it. Everything he said was as if EoB didn't exist, no mention of Bardock becoming Super Saiyan or surviving or Chilled or how Planet Vegeta was really Planet Plant or anything.

Bardock can be a Super Saiyan without being a mid-class, Chilled can still exist without being abnormally strong like Freeza & Cold, and Planet Plant/Vegeta doesn't have to look identical in every place. The only question related to EoB was the question about Bardock's BP. Ooishi seems to unsure if Toriyama is considering her story part of his story, most likely because he doesn't consider the anime part of his story, so her question was like if she had said "What is Bardock's BP ultimately in EoB? If you don't count it, what would have been his BP if he wasn't defeated by Freeza?".

I'm not saying that Toriyama acknowledges it as canon, I'm saying that there is not enough in the interview to make sure if Toriyama counts it or not.

Well if it's manga of course it'd be in a manga guidebook. Aren't the anime movie covered in anime guidebooks? Where else can it be.

It doesn't just have a summary of the special. It has Chilled in the family tree,

[Bullza]

And there is nothing that proves Toriyama not acknowledging EoB as happening as well.

Except for not including Chilled in his statement that about how Frieza and King Cold were the only two highly powerful and cruel characters and that Bardock was only a low class even though he was apparently a Super Saiyan.

Toriyama acknowledged Battle of Gods as happening, he's even gone out of his way to tie it in more. Has he done that with EoB? No just like he also hasn't with all the other non canon material.

Of course he has no future, he's been dead for a thousand years.

You said he was talking about the Bardock as of Dragon Ball Minus/EoB though where he wasn't killed and the character did have a future. The question was about how strong he would have gotten.

Or, she is asking it like that because she doesn't know if Toriyama acknowledges her story.

She works with him, she's wrote Dragon Ball SD and the Yo Goku manga. Why would she not know whether he acknowledges her story after like two years?

For you, yes.

That's because I'm not making any odd assumptions. It's all incredibly simple. Toriyama said Bardock is a low class, he isn't able to become a middle class however if there power level increased enough they could become a middle class.

Then there's a story where Bardock becomes a Super Saiyan his power level increasing fifty fold and yet somehow he never even mentions that and he's still just some low class warrior anyway and you say that's because Super Saiyan's don't count which you just made up.

Toriyama doesn't go and say "the manga and my works are the canon". Others just write their stories (Toei, Ooishi, Toyotaro, etc), and if he wants to, he refers them in his works. If he doesn't want to, he contradicts them. He may do both if he wants.

Most writers don't say their own work is canon. That someone else can just go write a story and it be considered canon without clearing it by the original author like this is just absurd. He's never referred to it in his work unlike Battle of Gods or Yo Goku,

It's in the same category as all the movies which he's also never referred to.

It's not like Toriyama didn't have any involvement in it.

Which only makes it harder to believe that she'd ask him a question just to see if in his answer he'd acknowledge anything from her work. She would already know.

Plus, Toriyama was also involved with the JSAT manga by Ooishi, where he supervised & advised her, and talked as if it was new a new extra manga chapter that Ooishi made in his place.

That's different. That was a anime special first which was based on a story concept by Toriyama. In Battle of Gods which was bt Toriyama they mention Tarble so he acknowledged that as actually happening. The manga was just an adaptation of the special.

With EoB it's Ooishi's story that Bardock has never referred to and contradicted depending on your view of his answers.

It doesn't just have a summary of the special. It has Chilled in the family tree,

Where can I see this?