Watching DB series Japanese (1st time) COMPLETE

[obiwan23s]

Nearly every Dragon Ball fan started on Z if they were introduced to it in North America. It doesn't surprise me one bit if someone wants to revisit the anime and starts with the Z series. I would only impress on someone to start with DB if they truly have not experienced the story in any way whatsoever and want to get into it. I can't tell you how much I wish I could erase my memories of Dragon Ball and start over so that when Piccolo dies, I could get to properly experience the picking up of my jaw off the floor.

[ABED]

If you watch them in that order, it spoils Anakin turning to Vader, which is one of the most shocking plot-twists I've ever seen, if not the most shocking. Especially if you watch The Clone Wars between II and III.

Plus, George Lucas said that they are meant to be seen in order, and even if he had never said that, there is a reason he has labeled them with episode numbers.

But it's common knowledge that Vader is luke's father. That reveal in Empire already doesn't have the same resonance when it was first came out, so why would it be a huge shocker that Anakin turns to the dark side, especially since everything is moving in that direction? The prequels are constantly making call backs that work only if you know what came before. Another plot twist that doesn't work nearly as well if you watch the prequels first is Luke and Leia being siblings. The prequels aren't designed to make you wonder what's going to happen, it's to answer how a sweet innocent kid could become a Sith Lord, they aren't predicated on a bunch of plot twists.

I don't care what Lucas thinks, Han shot first.

I mean, you don't watch Episode 291 of DBZ first, and then go to Episode 1 of DBZ.

Your analogy falls to bits because it's not like starting at Return of the Jedi first. DBZ and DB aren't two different shows.

With Dragon Ball, many of the main characters in the Dragon Ball anime are put aside or, in the case of characters like Piccolo, are totally characterised in Z; barely resembling a shadow of their former self.

Z also introduces the major defining (and exclusive) themes and characters of the show - Vegeta, Trunks, the notion of the Super Saiyan, power leveling and extreme end of the world situations. It feels like a very different show.

I agree though, advocating the skipping of Dragon Ball to a total newcomer is pretty silly. However, I don't think it's a cardinal sin to let someone be if they have a decent enough idea of what happened in the first anime. Like I said, Z caters to that experience entirely.

But that happens gradually. It's like most long running series where new characters get added and old characters leave the show. Piccolo isn't totally characterized in Z. He's introduced in DB as his original self, has a son who changes over time. Him giving his life to save Gohan isn't nearly as meaningful when you don't see how big a deal it is that he gave up his life to save the son of his mortal enemy. It's a gradual change that happens over 50 episodes. I don't understand the notion of it seeming like a different show. To me, it's like growing up. You notice a few big changes here and there, but for the most part changes happen rather gradually so you aren't cognizant of them until you take a step back and realize that you've changed a lot over the years.

[Ajay]

But that happens gradually. It's like most long running series where new characters get added and old characters leave the show. Piccolo isn't totally characterized in Z. He's introduced in DB as his original self, has a son who changes over time. Him giving his life to save Gohan isn't nearly as meaningful when you don't see how big a deal it is that he gave up his life to save the son of his mortal enemy. It's a gradual change that happens over 50 episodes. I don't understand the notion of it seeming like a different show. To me, it's like growing up. You notice a few big changes here and there, but for the most part changes happen rather gradually so you aren't cognizant of them until you take a step back and realize that you've changed a lot over the years.

Yeah, for sure. I'm not arguing that you should skip it if you have no idea about the story whatsoever. I'm just saying that if you're aware of who these characters are and what vaguely went on, Z is fine place to revisit the series. I'm totally on board with 100% newcomers starting from the beginning. It makes no sense not to.

I still feel the Z portion is entirely different in tone but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[ABED]

But that happens gradually. It's like most long running series where new characters get added and old characters leave the show. Piccolo isn't totally characterized in Z. He's introduced in DB as his original self, has a son who changes over time. Him giving his life to save Gohan isn't nearly as meaningful when you don't see how big a deal it is that he gave up his life to save the son of his mortal enemy. It's a gradual change that happens over 50 episodes. I don't understand the notion of it seeming like a different show. To me, it's like growing up. You notice a few big changes here and there, but for the most part changes happen rather gradually so you aren't cognizant of them until you take a step back and realize that you've changed a lot over the years.

Yeah, for sure. I'm not arguing that you should skip it if you have no idea about the story whatsoever. I'm just saying that if you're aware of who these characters are and what vaguely went on, Z is fine place to revisit the series. I'm totally on board with 100% newcomers starting from the beginning. It makes no sense not to.

I still feel the Z portion is entirely different in tone but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Sure, but it it's not like DB is all the same tone, it changes over time as well. Even Z does. That was my point.

[Ajay]

Sure, but it it's not like DB is all the same tone, it changes over time as well. Even Z does. That was my point.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply it was. I just mean that there's nothing in Dragon Ball that's really comparable to Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo. Piccolo works with Cell to some extent but that's about as far as I personally see it.

[Gaffer Tape]

If you watch them in that order, it spoils Anakin turning to Vader, which is one of the most shocking plot-twists I've ever seen, if not the most shocking. Especially if you watch The Clone Wars between II and III.

And here I always thought Anakin turning the dark side in the prequels was supposed to be presented as a tragedy, ie. something you already knew about with the emotion coming from watching the unavoidable play out. It was certainly marketed to that audience, with posters of Darth Vader everywhere. Hell, even Episode I's teaser posters had Darth Vader in Anakin's shadow. Clearly meant to be viewed by people who'd already seen the originals... just like prequels, by definition, are supposed to do.

Plus, George Lucas said that they are meant to be seen in order, and even if he had never said that, there is a reason he has labeled them with episode numbers. I mean, you don't watch Episode 291 of DBZ first, and then go to Episode 1 of DBZ.

Yeah, but George Lucas has absolutely no concept of how narrative works. He just thought it'd be a cool idea to see Star Wars with a new perspective. And I agree with that. But he clearly wrote them and presented to tug at the memories of those who've seen the originals. There's no pertinent exposition as to what Jedi or the force is because it was already in the original film. You're already supposed to know all this stuff because episode I is a sequel. So if you've seen them as they're "supposed" to be seen, you have to wait until the "fourth" film to get any explanation as to what the hell the last three films were centered around. And if you've already figured it out by context, which you probably have, it makes Ben's scene entirely pointless and redundant. It just doesn't work, just like The Chronicles of Narnia don't work when you take the build-up to Narnia from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and supersede it with the tepid, "This is where Narnia came from," introduction from The Magician's Nephew. I just don't get the idea of taking mystery and suspense and feeling compelled to rearrange it all in chronological order. It's supposed to be telling a story, not listing facts in an encyclopedia. It's the same reason opening Kai with Bardock doesn't work.

As for your example, it's not even remotely the same thing. What would be closer to the mark is if Toei decided to number the final episode of DBZ "episode 0".

[ABED]

I would compare the Piccolos to what came afterwards, he was the first world threatening big bad.

[ABED]

If you watch them in that order, it spoils Anakin turning to Vader, which is one of the most shocking plot-twists I've ever seen, if not the most shocking. Especially if you watch The Clone Wars between II and III.

And here I always thought Anakin turning the dark side in the prequels was supposed to be presented as a tragedy, ie. something you already knew about with the emotion coming from watching the unavoidable play out. It was certainly marketed to that audience, with posters of Darth Vader everywhere. Hell, even Episode I's teaser posters had Darth Vader in Anakin's shadow. Clearly meant to be viewed by people who'd already seen the originals... just like prequels, by definition, are supposed to do.

Plus, George Lucas said that they are meant to be seen in order, and even if he had never said that, there is a reason he has labeled them with episode numbers. I mean, you don't watch Episode 291 of DBZ first, and then go to Episode 1 of DBZ.

Yeah, but George Lucas has absolutely no concept of how narrative works. He just thought it'd be a cool idea to see Star Wars with a new perspective. And I agree with that. But he clearly wrote them and presented to tug at the memories of those who've seen the originals. There's no pertinent exposition as to what Jedi or the force is because it was already in the original film. So if you've seen them as they're "supposed" to be seen, you have to wait until the "fourth" film to get any explanation as to what the hell the last three films were centered around. And if you've already figured it out by context, which you probably have, it makes Ben's scene entirely pointless and redundant.

As for your example, it's not even remotely the same thing. What would be closer to the mark is if Toei decided to number the final episode of DBZ "episode 0".

Damn you Gaffer Tappe for writing what I thought better than I can

[Gaffer Tape]

Aw, darn it. You beat me before I edited my post to include a few more examples (including a DB example, since this is a DB forum). But thank you.

[Valerius Dover]

Ok, somebody remind me to keep my mouth shut next time something like this comes up again.

[ABED]

Yeah, you've got reoccurring characters and references but it's filled to the brim with flashbacks and explanations. Yeah, it's better to watch part 1 and 2 but 3 still stands alone absolutely fine.

It absolutely does sound like whining though. OP clearly mentions he's seen Dragon Ball just not in a while and so would like to watch that with 100% concentration another time. Rather than accepting that, there has to be someone chiming in with a "No offense, but I seriously can't believe there are people who actually skip the first series".

It's the same bullshit that went on back when I made that thread about my partner watching Dragon Ball Z in Japanese for the first time too. She had the general gist of the first anime, she'd just not seen it in a while and preferred to watch Z and come back to Dragon Ball another time.

It's incessant self-important whining because someone feels like doing something different to what you feel your ideal way is. It's tiring and irritating. I'd understand if it were someone entirely new to the franchise looking for a place to start. Of course, I'd totally be on board with you if that were the case. It's not though. It's someone wanting to experience the show in another language.

It's not different, it's treated different by many, but it's the same show. The Z is completely arbitrary and artificial.

Again, the general gist isn't the same thing as experiencing the show. You can jump in on a lot of series halfway through and get the idea, but that doesn't mean you aren't missing something. it's not merely about plot and destination, it's about the journey. DB is criminally overlooked because Z is more popular. It's seen as less action packed, which not really the case. Just because we bring up the same point doesn't make it whining or invalid. It's a valid argument that people shouldn't skip DB because it's ALL DB.

It's like watching Angel without having seen Buffy, or Frasier without watching Cheers. Sure those shows will bring you up to speed on what happened in the past, but it's not the same experience as seeing the other shows. My argument works even better with DB because Z isn't a spinoff. It's not a standalone series, either. When I first watched Buffy and Angel, I saw Buffy Season 1, then Angel seasons 1 and 2. I got the general idea of Buffy and Angel's history, but it wasn't the same experience as if I had seen everything before the spinoff. It wasn't nearly as emotionally rich an experience.

What does experiencing it in another language have to do with anything?

[Ajay]

What does experiencing it in another language have to do with anything?

Because that's what this entire thread is about? It's what started this discussion.

As much as I love the show, let's not pretend for a second that it has any emotional depth worth enough to bring up things like an 'emotionally rich experience'. But regardless, you miss my point; it's not that the Z anime is a spin off, a prequel, a standalone, whatever. It's that it's presented independently. It caters to being watched alone. As I said, every reference is backed up with context through a flashback or explanatory dialogue. It can be watched alone absolutely perfectly with the viewer knowing way more than enough to get by.

Piccolo was once bad, Kuririn is Goku's best friend, Roshi trained Goku, Bulma went on a journey with Goku. It's all very basic plot points and relationships that are easily established throughout the series. You are absolutely not losing anything significant by not knowing each and every specific detail. As I said, Dragon Ball is a very simple show, there's very little in the way of extremely complex characters. The most you get is probably Vegeta's constant struggle with Goku and that's entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

I've reiterated my point so much at this point that it's starting to become mindnumbing. No, of course a total newcomer shouldn't start with Z. No, DB and Z aren't separate entities but they're different enough in tone and content to be seen as such by some. There's a reason Z worked so well independently.

It's fairly simple. If you're aware of Dragon Ball's characters in a decent enough context, watching Z without seeing DB in its entirety is a perfectly fine way to enjoy the series. To its total and absolute fullest? No, of course not. Are you losing anything significant to actually matter outside of an extreme purist mentality? No.

EDIT: Not to mention, I don't disagree that Dragon Ball is criminally overlooked by many but I fail to see why that has anything to do with the viability of watching Z with only the basic plot points in mind.

[ABED]

Because that's what this entire thread is about? It's what started this discussion.

You're taking this out of context. I wasn't talking about this thread, I meant the point you brought up about your girlfriend watching the show in another language. I don't see how that has anything to do with not starting from the beginning.

It's that it's presented independently.

No it's not, it just has a Z at the end. It's a continuation of the show like Empire Strikes Back was to Star Wars. Terminator 2 is a great film and can be enjoyed on its own but it's still a better experience when you see them in order first.

let's not pretend for a second that it has any emotional depth worth enough to bring up things like an 'emotionally rich experience'.

I said rich, not deep. It may be surface level, but that doesn't make it not a satisfying experience.

As I said, every reference is backed up with context through a flashback or explanatory dialogue.

As I said, so does Angel when it references events from Buffy, but a reference isn't the same as seeing it.

The fact that you can get stuff in flashback or context is irrelevant. You can do the same thing if you start at most points in the show, that you draw an arbitrary line between DB and DBZ is ridiculous. You could watch the Buu arc independent of the rest of DBZ and get through flashbacks and context who is who and what happened.

I've made the point several times that even Z is different in tone over the course of the show. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line?

Are you losing anything significant to actually matter outside of an extreme purist mentality? No.

This isn't a matter of purity and completionism, it's about trying to get people to stop overlooking what many would argue is the best part of the series. So many assume that just because the 'splosions and power levels are bigger that means it's more epic and the fights are better. I wonder how many believe that simply because DBZ is the first thing they saw. And yes, you are losing something significant, you are losing the best parts of the show. Why not skip it altogether and just tell her the basic story? Or show her DB and tell her the rest.

EDIT: Not to mention, I don't disagree that Dragon Ball is criminally overlooked by many but I fail to see why that has anything to do with the viability of watching Z with only the basic plot points in mind.

Because I don't think anyone is saying you can't watch Z without watching DB, simply that they are missing out on a great show.

Piccolo was once bad, Kuririn is Goku's best friend, Roshi trained Goku, Bulma went on a journey with Goku. It's all very basic plot points and relationships that are easily established throughout the series. You are absolutely not losing anything significant by not knowing each and every specific detail. As I said, Dragon Ball is a very simple show, there's very little in the way of extremely complex characters.

Yes you are, you aren't seeing it. That someone can understand something isn't the same as watching it. You miss the humor, the fights, the acting and a number of beautiful moments like Goku finding Kuririn dead. Me saying "Goku loses to Tenshinhan, then a monster working for a being called Piccolo Daimao kills Kuririn," is not the same as seeing that episode and experience the wonderful performances.

[Ajay]

You're taking this out of context. I wasn't talking about this thread, I meant the point you brought up about your girlfriend watching the show in another language. I don't see how that has anything to do with not starting from the beginning.

Huh? I brought that up because you had this exact reaction when I mentioned she decided to watch Dragon Ball at a later date. My comment about different languages referred to the main post of this thread. You all lost your shit because someone decided to revisit DB at a later date when he could be more focused on something he'd not seen in a while.

No it's not, it just has a Z at the end. It's a continuation of the show like Empire Strikes Back was to Star Wars. Terminator 2 is a great film and can be enjoyed on its own but it's still a better experience when you see them in order first.

Anyway, by presented, I'm not referring to its name. I'm referring to the way it's directed - the choice to include explanations and flashbacks.

Blah blah, everything after this is just a romantic spiel about how much you love Dragon Ball and hate that someone may want to experience it to its fullest another time. Not worth arguing about, you're not changing that opinion so there's no point addressing it.

I'm not saying that knowing the plot points is the same as watching it, I'm saying that you're getting enough info to get by when watching Z. Knowing plot points isn't a replacement. I've not implied that at all. You do still get the emotional impact of all the key scenes though.

[DarkPrince_92]

*skims through argument* ...so anyway. I'm really enjoying it so far, it feels really fresh. Especially since the subtitles are different from the Funimation dub's actual lines. I just got to where Yamcha dies.

I'm loving the cast. People always told me even though Goku and Gohan have the same actor and have two different tones, I can definitely see it now. Goku is obnoxious sounding in compared to Gohan's mild mannered self. I never thought much of the Saiyan Arc filler until now, I actually like it in Japanese. Gohan is adorable lol, the robot episode was too funny. Mr. Popo's dialogue...is questionable, he comes across very simple to be blunt. And of course Vegeta, badass.

The music, awesome as always. There are tracks that played in Dragon Ball that I'm glad made a return. I just wish the Japanese audio wasn't so muffled, can't do much about that though.

Pretty awesome so far, still have a long way to go.


EDIT: I've been binge watching for a while, hardly got any 3D work done lol. I'm hooked.

[ABED]

We didn't lose our shit, we simply tried to convince someone to start at the beginning. If someone is going to try a whole new experience, why not start completely new and try the original language from the beginning?

Blah blah, everything after this is just a romantic spiel about how much you love Dragon Ball and hate that someone may want to experience it to its fullest another time. Not worth arguing about, you're not changing that opinion so there's no point addressing it.

I'm not saying that knowing the plot points are the same as watching it, I'm saying that you're getting enough to get by when watching Z. Knowing plot points isn't a replacement. I've not implied that at all.

I think you have the wrong idea about how strongly we feel about this. I don't hate, I find it odd, "hate" would imply I have strong feelings towards a person I've never interacted with. Just because I'm carrying on a dialog with you doesn't mean I have super strong feelings about this.

You seem to think we're saying you can't understand the show without watching it from the beginning. Most of us started with Z because it was the show that was the most visible and easily accessible, so yes, we did start with Z and it didn't affect our ability to understand the story. That isn't at all what we are saying to you and the original poster.

Did you really have to write "blah blah?" It's disrespectful.

It's not at issue that you get enough by watching DBZ, but there's no good reason to start with Z. Why that point, and explain what happens in DBZ, or why not just show her the whole thing from the beginning? Why not show that person the better show, unless you think DBZ is better?

[Valerius Dover]

Oh, thank goodness, back on topic. Let's try to put down this argument that I am in no way responsible for.

They use a lot of tracks from the original series? Well, that's interesting. I knew DBZ recycled a little bit, but didn't know it was a whole lot. Good to know.

[DarkPrince_92]

They use a lot of tracks from the original series? Well, that's interesting. I knew DBZ recycled a little bit, but didn't know it was a whole lot. Good to know.

Yeah, it was mostly tracks from I'd say midway in the King Piccolo Arc towards the end of DB. Newer tracks flood in by time the Saiyans come.

[ABED]

Oh, thank goodness, back on topic. Let's try to put down this argument that I am in no way responsible for.

They use a lot of tracks from the original series? Well, that's interesting. I knew DBZ recycled a little bit, but didn't know it was a whole lot. Good to know.

You mean recycled from DB? Or itself? DBZ uses a lot of DB's tracks. See, it's not a different show, why would it use a different score? It makes sense to continue using old cues while adding new ones.

[theoriginalbilis]

They use a lot of tracks from the original series? Well, that's interesting. I knew DBZ recycled a little bit, but didn't know it was a whole lot. Good to know.

Yeah, it was mostly tracks from I'd say midway in the King Piccolo Arc towards the end of DB. Newer tracks flood in by time the Saiyans come.

By the time the Freeza arc is underway, they barely use any original-DB BGM anymore, they've built up enough of a library of newer compositions from the Saiyan arc and the 3 DBZ movies under their belt.