Is Mystic Gohan essentially Full Power Super Saiyan 2?

[Low Tone G]

The boys, even before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, were fairly close to their fathers in terms of strength, given how close it was stated they were in relation to Gohan. With the training in the Room, and the significant increase attested to by Piccolo, the gap between the boys and their fathers was even lower. As such, Gogeta and Gotenks aren't going to be that different in terms of strength in the same form, so there's no way that Ssj Gogeta is above Gohan. Ssj3 is the only form Gogeta has that would put him in the same range as Gohan, but even then, it's uncertain whether he'd be stronger than him.

Pretty much. People just hate the idea of a Goku & Vegeta fusion not being that special. Gogeta is arguably even more overrated than Broly.

No way. Gohan was stated to be SSJ3 Goku's and SSJ3 Gotenks' superior, so there's no way to guess that Mystic Gohan is stronger than movie 12 SSJ Gogeta or weaker. As I think about Gotenks I'd say the fusion dance is very effective on its own as Gotenks was able to push himself to SSJ3, a form which Goten and Trunks can not display. I personally can't belive that Mystic Gohan would be that powerful as the fusion made Goten and Trunks so incomparably more powerful. I think about Janemba to be roughly the same strength like Super Buu, who was humiliated by Ultimate Gohan, but Gogeta was able to destroy Janemba with only two moves. I think in the worst case SSJ Gogeta is on par with Mystic/Ultimate Gohan.

[ChahikoDBZ]

Wouldn't Super Vegetto and SSJ Gogeta be basically the same power? Everyone knows Vegetto far outclasses Buuhan. So Gohan being anywhere near on par with him is pretty much out of the question. The same should go for Gogeta compared with Mystic Gohan.

[RandomGuy96]

Wouldn't Super Vegetto and SSJ Gogeta be basically the same power? Everyone knows Vegetto far outclasses Buuhan. So Gohan being anywhere near on par with him is pretty much out of the question. The same should go for Gogeta compared with Mystic Gohan.

No, Vegetto is stated to be stronger. Elder Kaioshin says that the effects of Potara are greater than the effects of the dance. Buuhan also states that Gogeta can't beat him, which Goku seems to agree with, since he says Potara is the only way to stop Buu.

I concur. Gogeta is the most overrated DB character aside from maybe Broly. They're definitely competing for the spot of the most overrated. Logically, he should be superior to Gotenks by the same amount that Goku is superior to Goten in equal forms. Which is really not that much, given that Goten and Trunks were able to spar on somewhat even terms with Gohan and Vegeta, indicating a less than x2 gap between them. SS3 Gogeta would get his ass beat by Super Buu with Gohan absorbed, and SS Gogeta would get one-shotted by base Super Buu. Killing Janemba, a weakling who had trouble with SS3 Goku, is not at all impressive by the Fusion arc standards.

[Darkprince410]

Wouldn't Super Vegetto and SSJ Gogeta be basically the same power? Everyone knows Vegetto far outclasses Buuhan. So Gohan being anywhere near on par with him is pretty much out of the question. The same should go for Gogeta compared with Mystic Gohan.

Though the wording is left intentionally vague, the effect of the Potara earrings are stated to be even greater than that of the Fusion Dance. While some believe that to be related to the lack of time limit, the statement of them being greater was mentioned in addition to the mention of them being permanent, suggesting that it's something else entirely.

Given though that we see that it takes Ssj3 for Gotenks to be able to match Evil Buu in terms of power, and that even though their fathers are stronger, it's not to a staggering degree, that basically suggests that Gogeta would be relatively close to Gotenks in terms of power for their respective forms. For Ssj Gogeta to be in the same range as Ssj3 Gotenks, it'd require Goku and Vegeta to be 8x that of their sons AFTER the boys trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, when everything in the manga and guide books suggest that the boys weren't that much weaker than their dads.

Given what we've seen and what reasonably can be inferred, Ssj Vegetto is significantly stronger than his Fusion Dance counterpart.

[Low Tone G]

Wouldn't Super Vegetto and SSJ Gogeta be basically the same power? Everyone knows Vegetto far outclasses Buuhan. So Gohan being anywhere near on par with him is pretty much out of the question. The same should go for Gogeta compared with Mystic Gohan.

No, Vegetto is stated to be stronger. Elder Kaioshin says that the effects of Potara are greater than the effects of the dance. Buuhan also states that Gogeta can't beat him, which Goku seems to agree with, since he says Potara is the only way to stop Buu.

I concur. Gogeta is the most overrated DB character aside from maybe Broly. They're definitely competing for the spot of the most overrated. Logically, he should be superior to Gotenks by the same amount that Goku is superior to Goten in equal forms. Which is really not that much, given that Goten and Trunks were able to spar on somewhat even terms with Gohan and Vegeta, indicating a less than x2 gap between them. SS3 Gogeta would get his ass beat by Super Buu with Gohan absorbed, and SS Gogeta would get one-shotted by base Super Buu. Killing Janemba, a weakling who had trouble with SS3 Goku, is not at all impressive by the Fusion arc standards.

Yeah? Janemba a weakling? I don't know what is your base for a comparison? SSj3 Goku could handle Base Janemba just like he did with Fat Buu. We did not see a SSJ3 Goku vs. Evil(Super) Buu fight, so according to Goku he couldn't have won against Super Buu, that's the only infromation about Super Buu's strength. But contrary, we saw a SSJ3 Goku vs. Super Janemba clash, and that pretty much showed Goku couldn't have won against him. So I think a Super Buu vs Goku pretty much would have been the same (with Goku's dead body). So I think SSJ3 Goku wasn't a one-shot material for Super Buu, just like he wasn't for Super Janemba. I can not argue as Super Gogeta being on par with Super Vegetto, because Super Vegetto is obviously stronger than him, but I think in the worst case Super Gogeta is on par with Mystic Gohan, especially when the events from the Movie 12 and the Super Buu saga took place in a roughly same time.

[GogesusSSG]

Wouldn't Super Vegetto and SSJ Gogeta be basically the same power? Everyone knows Vegetto far outclasses Buuhan. So Gohan being anywhere near on par with him is pretty much out of the question. The same should go for Gogeta compared with Mystic Gohan.

No, Vegetto is stated to be stronger. Elder Kaioshin says that the effects of Potara are greater than the effects of the dance. Buuhan also states that Gogeta can't beat him, which Goku seems to agree with, since he says Potara is the only way to stop Buu.

I concur. Gogeta is the most overrated DB character aside from maybe Broly. They're definitely competing for the spot of the most overrated. Logically, he should be superior to Gotenks by the same amount that Goku is superior to Goten in equal forms. Which is really not that much, given that Goten and Trunks were able to spar on somewhat even terms with Gohan and Vegeta, indicating a less than x2 gap between them. SS3 Gogeta would get his ass beat by Super Buu with Gohan absorbed, and SS Gogeta would get one-shotted by base Super Buu. Killing Janemba, a weakling who had trouble with SS3 Goku, is not at all impressive by the Fusion arc standards.

Yeah? Janemba a weakling? I don't know what is your base for a comparison? SSj3 Goku could handle Base Janemba just like he did with Fat Buu. We did not see a SSJ3 Goku vs. Evil(Super) Buu fight, so according to Goku he couldn't have won against Super Buu, that's the only infromation about Super Buu's strength. But contrary, we saw a SSJ3 Goku vs. Super Janemba clash, and that pretty much showed Goku couldn't have won against him. So I think a Super Buu vs Goku pretty much would have been the same (with Goku's dead body). So I think SSJ3 Goku wasn't a one-shot material for Super Buu, just like he wasn't for Super Janemba. I can not argue as Super Gogeta being on par with Super Vegetto, because Super Vegetto is obviously stronger than him, but I think in the worst case Super Gogeta is on par with Mystic Gohan, especially when the events from the Movie 12 and the Super Buu saga took place in a roughly same time.

What he's saying is that with SSJ Gogeta beating Janemba, Gotenks should capable of the same thing in that form; which the same can't be said for defeating Super Buu. As others have pointed out unless you have Goku/Vegeta way ahead of Trunks/Goten then Gogeta shouldn't be that much stronger than Gotenks in the same form as they're both formed via the dance, hence they get the boost.

[Darkprince410]

Yeah? Janemba a weakling? I don't know what is your base for a comparison? SSj3 Goku could handle Base Janemba just like he did with Fat Buu. We did not see a SSJ3 Goku vs. Evil(Super) Buu fight, so according to Goku he couldn't have won against Super Buu, that's the only infromation about Super Buu's strength. But contrary, we saw a SSJ3 Goku vs. Super Janemba clash, and that pretty much showed Goku couldn't have won against him. So I think a Super Buu vs Goku pretty much would have been the same (with Goku's dead body). So I think SSJ3 Goku wasn't a one-shot material for Super Buu, just like he wasn't for Super Janemba. I can not argue as Super Gogeta being on par with Super Vegetto, because Super Vegetto is obviously stronger than him, but I think in the worst case Super Gogeta is on par with Mystic Gohan, especially when the events from the Movie 12 and the Super Buu saga took place in a roughly same time.

Well, for starters, the difference between Evil Buu and Ssj3 Goku was seemingly so great that Goku didn't want to even entertain the notion of him and Vegeta fighting him separated, and that they'd outright lose if they even tried. With Janemba, while we know he was more than a match for Goku, it didn't seem that the difference was so big that Goku wasn't going to give it a shot. Likewise, while brief, Goku could seemingly do some slight damage to Janemba on his own, suggesting the gap wasn't all that great between the two.

Then there's just the fact of the Fusion Dance itself. Nothing has ever been stated or suggested that the Fusion Dance works any differently for Gogeta than it does Gotenks, and that Gogeta received any special kind of bonus or boost that Gotenks didn't. As such, and the relative closeness the boys were to their fathers, that'd leave Ssj Gogeta not that much stronger than Ssj Gotenks, and if Gogeta could throttle Janemba with such ease, that'd put him essentially between whatever gap you have between Ssj3 Goku and post RoSaT Ssj Gotenks, which is a far, far cry from being around Evil Buu's level.

[Cursed Lemon]

The boys, even before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, were fairly close to their fathers in terms of strength, given how close it was stated they were in relation to Gohan. With the training in the Room, and the significant increase attested to by Piccolo, the gap between the boys and their fathers was even lower. As such, Gogeta and Gotenks aren't going to be that different in terms of strength in the same form, so there's no way that Ssj Gogeta is above Gohan. Ssj3 is the only form Gogeta has that would put him in the same range as Gohan, but even then, it's uncertain whether he'd be stronger than him.

Okay, I really have to know exactly what precedent we're going by to come to this conclusion.

Gotenks hit SSJ3 but neither Goten nor Trunks ever gave any indication that they were even nearing SSJ2 individually, which I think proves that training in the fused state does not necessarily make the individual stronger, or at least not that much.

Goku and Vegeta were both SSJ2 by the time shit started hitting the fan in the Buu arc. So are we saying that Gotenks is equal to Gogeta merely because Goten and Trunks did so much fused training? We're making a lot of assumptions on how fusion works.

[dbzfan7]

The boys, even before their training in the Room of Spirit and Time, were fairly close to their fathers in terms of strength, given how close it was stated they were in relation to Gohan. With the training in the Room, and the significant increase attested to by Piccolo, the gap between the boys and their fathers was even lower. As such, Gogeta and Gotenks aren't going to be that different in terms of strength in the same form, so there's no way that Ssj Gogeta is above Gohan. Ssj3 is the only form Gogeta has that would put him in the same range as Gohan, but even then, it's uncertain whether he'd be stronger than him.

Pretty much. People just hate the idea of a Goku & Vegeta fusion not being that special. Gogeta is arguably even more overrated than Broly.

No way. Gohan was stated to be SSJ3 Goku's and SSJ3 Gotenks' superior, so there's no way to guess that Mystic Gohan is stronger than movie 12 SSJ Gogeta or weaker. As I think about Gotenks I'd say the fusion dance is very effective on its own as Gotenks was able to push himself to SSJ3, a form which Goten and Trunks can not display. I personally can't belive that Mystic Gohan would be that powerful as the fusion made Goten and Trunks so incomparably more powerful. I think about Janemba to be roughly the same strength like Super Buu, who was humiliated by Ultimate Gohan, but Gogeta was able to destroy Janemba with only two moves. I think in the worst case SSJ Gogeta is on par with Mystic/Ultimate Gohan.

No reason for SSJ Gogeta to be that much stronger than SSJ Gotenks. Hell Janemba is weaker than Super Boo. Goku and even Vegeta managed to put up some fight to Janemba, while Super Boo can curb stomp both of them effortlessly. Gohan could do the same thing to Janemba if he really wanted to. Goku didn't even want to humour the idea of fighting Super Boo, but they both still managed to do something to Janemba.

[Hitiro]

Okay, I really have to know exactly what precedent we're going by to come to this conclusion.

Gotenks hit SSJ3 but neither Goten nor Trunks ever gave any indication that they were even nearing SSJ2 individually, which I think proves that training in the fused state does not necessarily make the individual stronger, or at least not that much.

Goku and Vegeta were both SSJ2 by the time shit started hitting the fan in the Buu arc. So are we saying that Gotenks is equal to Gogeta merely because Goten and Trunks did so much fused training? We're making a lot of assumptions on how fusion works.

He is saying the difference in strength would translate over into the fusion. Both Goten and Trunks weren't that far behind their father's or Gohan. Them entering the RoSaT closed that gap further so if both their father's and them were to fuse then in a similar form, say SSJ, they would be pretty close in strength. We aren't talking about SSJ2 now because the boys probably never attained it. But if both fusions were in SSJ or in their base forms the difference between them would be about the same amount as them un-fused.

[Cursed Lemon]

He is saying the difference in strength would translate over into the fusion. Both Goten and Trunks weren't that far behind their father's or Gohan. Them entering the RoSaT closed that gap further so if both their father's and them were to fuse then in a similar form, say SSJ, they would be pretty close in strength. We aren't talking about SSJ2 now because the boys probably never attained it. But if both fusions were in SSJ or in their base forms the difference between them would be about the same amount as them un-fused.

But this is rife with assumptions, as I've been saying. Assumptions like:

1. Goten and Trunks were roughly as strong as their fathers in the base SSJ state but just couldn't go SSJ2 for whatever reason.

2. Fusion ignores the fighters' latent strength and only recognizes the power that they show while fusing.

3. As mentioned earlier, training in the fused state strengthens the fused fighter but not the individual.

[Low Tone G]

Okay, I really have to know exactly what precedent we're going by to come to this conclusion.

Gotenks hit SSJ3 but neither Goten nor Trunks ever gave any indication that they were even nearing SSJ2 individually, which I think proves that training in the fused state does not necessarily make the individual stronger, or at least not that much.

Goku and Vegeta were both SSJ2 by the time shit started hitting the fan in the Buu arc. So are we saying that Gotenks is equal to Gogeta merely because Goten and Trunks did so much fused training? We're making a lot of assumptions on how fusion works.

He is saying the difference in strength would translate over into the fusion. Both Goten and Trunks weren't that far behind their father's or Gohan. Them entering the RoSaT closed that gap further so if both their father's and them were to fuse then in a similar form, say SSJ, they would be pretty close in strength. We aren't talking about SSJ2 now because the boys probably never attained it. But if both fusions were in SSJ or in their base forms the difference between them would be about the same amount as them un-fused.

You're forgetting one thing. The fusion dance works not like Base Trunks + Base Goten = Base Gotenks, because that would mean Base Gotenks < Super Saiyan Goten. But it's more than likely as Base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ Trunks/Goten or even SSJ Goten + SSJTrunks. How the hell could have Goku thought that Gotenks will be able to beat Fat Buu if SSJ Trunks+SSJ Goten will make SSJ Gotenks only 2 times powerful than a kid at SSJ level? When it was obviuous that Goku is stronger then them in every forms. Goku expected the base fusion to perform better than the two kids together but without fusion, and expected that they will be even more stronger as they both are capable to go SSJ. And Gotenks ended up even better as he could go SSj3 with training. So I can imagine the fusion was that made them capable to reach the high level in that short time. In that case we can not count on Base Gogeta as Base Goku + Base Vegeta, but SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta is Base Gogeta, and with SSJ they will become even stronger. For me it can make sense on if the Base fusion also counts a progress not only the SSJ.

So I think Trunks + Goten = Base Gotenks > SSJ Trunks + SSJ Goten(separately)

Goku + Vegeta = Base Gogeta > SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta (separately), becuase If Base Goku is 1 and Base Vegeta is also 1 = 2 x 50 = 100. So SSJ Gogeta would have been only 100x stronger than Base Goku/Vegeta that would roughly equal SSJ2 Goku's strength. That is far from enough to kill Super Janemba. That wouldn't make sense, because SSJ3 Goku who is 4x more powerful than SSJ2 himself and couldn't kill Janemba.

I think Base Gogeta is at very least SSJ2 tier and the SSJ puts him 10-15x times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. I do not think Mystic Gohan is more than 10x SSJ3 Goku.

My list is this:

Base Goten < Base Trunks < Base Goten(post-rosat) < Base Trunks(post-rosat) < Base Vegeta = Base Goku << SSJ Goten < SSJ Trunks < Base Gotenks < Base Gotenks(post-rosat) < SSJ Vegeta = SSJ Goku < SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku < Base Gogeta < SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Gotenks(post-rosat) < SSJ2 Gotenks < SSJ3 Gotenks < Mystic Gohan < SSJ Gogeta

[Hitiro]

You're forgetting one thing. The fusion dance works not like Base Trunks + Base Goten = Base Gotenks, because that would mean Base Gotenks < Super Saiyan Goten. But it's more than likely as Base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ Trunks/Goten or even SSJ Goten + SSJTrunks. How the hell could have Goku thought that Gotenks will be able to beat Fat Buu if SSJ Trunks+SSJ Goten will make SSJ Gotenks only 2 times powerful than a kid at SSJ level? When it was obviuous that Goku is stronger then them in every forms. Goku expected the base fusion to perform better than the two kids together but without fusion, and expected that they will be even more stronger as they both are capable to go SSJ. And Gotenks ended up even better as he could go SSj3 with training. So I can imagine the fusion was that made them capable to reach the high level in that short time. In that case we can not count on Base Gogeta as Base Goku + Base Vegeta, but SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta is Base Gogeta, and with SSJ they will become even stronger. For me it can make sense on if the Base fusion also counts a progress not only the SSJ.

So I think Trunks + Goten = Base Gotenks > SSJ Trunks + SSJ Goten(separately)

Goku + Vegeta = Base Gogeta > SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta (separately), becuase If Base Goku is 1 and Base Vegeta is also 1 = 2 x 50 = 100. So SSJ Gogeta would have been only 100x stronger than Base Goku/Vegeta that would roughly equal SSJ2 Goku's strength. That is far from enough to kill Super Janemba. That wouldn't make sense, because SSJ3 Goku who is 4x more powerful than SSJ2 himself and couldn't kill Janemba.

I think Base Gogeta is at very least SSJ2 tier and the SSJ puts him 10-15x times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. I do not think Mystic Gohan is more than 10x SSJ3 Goku.

My list is this:

Base Goten < Base Trunks < Base Goten(post-rosat) < Base Trunks(post-rosat) < Base Vegeta = Base Goku << SSJ Goten < SSJ Trunks < Base Gotenks < Base Gotenks(post-rosat) < SSJ Vegeta = SSJ Goku < SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku < Base Gogeta < SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Gotenks(post-rosat) < SSJ2 Gotenks < SSJ3 Gotenks < Mystic Gohan < SSJ Gogeta

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that whatever the formula for the fusion dance is, it applies the same to the adults as the children. Their strengths are factored in. So it doesn't matter if it isn't Goten + Trunks = Gotenks. Because whatever makes up Gotenks will still contain Goten + Trunks. Therefore they will be a bit behind Goku and Vegeta's fusion in the same transformation. I never pertained to their fusions being weaker or stronger than their base of SSJ selves. I'm just looking at the end result here.

If you want to then you can look at it like this:

(Fusee1 + Fusee2) * 5(example fusion multiplier) = Fusion

So if you plug either the kids or the adults into this then it results in the same distance away.

But this is rife with assumptions, as I've been saying. Assumptions like:

1. Goten and Trunks were roughly as strong as their fathers in the base SSJ state but just couldn't go SSJ2 for whatever reason.

Goku and Vegeta said that they had to go through arduous amounts of training to attain SSJ2. I don't think it is ever said by the characters that the strength of themselves had anything to do with attaining the SSJ2 transformation. If Goten and Trunks had trained as hard as their fathers for 7 years(or less) they would probably get the SSJ2 form too. But Goten and Trunks were naturally this strong, they didn't have to put that much effort into being behind their dads and Gohan. So they have literally no amount of arduous amounts of training. Therefore they can't achieve SSJ2. Right?

2. Fusion ignores the fighters' latent strength and only recognizes the power that they show while fusing.

Wouldn't it have to ignore latent strength? Otherwise how would they get any stronger than they already were? If it factored in latent strength then they would never be able to get any stronger because their latent strength would pull out their maximum in the fusion. Right?

3. As mentioned earlier, training in the fused state strengthens the fused fighter but not the individual.

Is it said anywhere in the manga that they trained in the fused form? Obviously they tried to get SSJ3 and learnt how to access the transformation. And they also experimented with attacks. But to actually strengthened them as the fusion? I find it weird that this would be the case seeing as how would fusing back into the fusion would cause it to remember all the training on the body and thus make it stronger. How can this information be stored in the universe. If you think of it in terms of a computer program then if you close the program down and then open the program again you start with a clean slate. The fusion is a result of the two fusion materials. That makes sense. But with the information you are pertaining to then the fusion also is something that is remembered by the universe and when they perform it the universe gives it this template? Or something like that? I don't really understand how you can quantify this. It's like saying:

1 + 1 * 2(pretend fusion multiplier) = 5(4 + 1 from training in the fused form)

instead of:

1 + 1 * 2 = 4.

Which is how I see it. Where does this extra 1 come from? Do you see what I mean? I don't know if I'm being clear but new information can't be added to the end result unless it is stored somewhere in the fabric of the universe.

[Cursed Lemon]

Goku and Vegeta said that they had to go through arduous amounts of training to attain SSJ2. I don't think it is ever said by the characters that the strength of themselves had anything to do with attaining the SSJ2 transformation. If Goten and Trunks had trained as hard as their fathers for 7 years(or less) they would probably get the SSJ2 form too. But Goten and Trunks were naturally this strong, they didn't have to put that much effort into being behind their dads and Gohan. So they have literally no amount of arduous amounts of training. Therefore they can't achieve SSJ2. Right?

Well there aren't any concrete rules of how saiyans achieve different SSJ levels aside from the vague descriptions that the guidebooks give us, which have proven to not be universal to all fighters. I've tried exploring the discrepancies of how each level is achieved but there didn't seem to be too much interest in discussing it.

I, personally, have never accepted the idea that the kids were as strong as their dads, but even beyond that, it's almost literally impossible that Goku and Vegeta would train for X amount of years as intensely as they did after having already mastered the SSJ state, and still only be as strong as their prepubescent sons in the first SSJ form. I cannot buy that.

Wouldn't it have to ignore latent strength? Otherwise how would they get any stronger than they already were? If it factored in latent strength then they would never be able to get any stronger because their latent strength would pull out their maximum in the fusion. Right?

A fused form can suppress its power level just like unfused fights. Any way you look at it, a saiyan has a base power and a series of power "unlocks" via super saiyan and the fusion multiplier, whatever it is, is likely static. So even IF Goten and Trunks were their dads' equals in SSJ, Goku and Vegeta would still completely outclass them with Gogeta by hitting SSJ2...and this isn't even taking Goku's ability to hit SSJ3 into account.

Is it said anywhere in the manga that they trained in the fused form? Obviously they tried to get SSJ3 and learnt how to access the transformation. And they also experimented with attacks. But to actually strengthened them as the fusion? I find it weird that this would be the case seeing as how would fusing back into the fusion would cause it to remember all the training on the body and thus make it stronger. How can this information be stored in the universe. If you think of it in terms of a computer program then if you close the program down and then open the program again you start with a clean slate. The fusion is a result of the two fusion materials. That makes sense. But with the information you are pertaining to then the fusion also is something that is remembered by the universe and when they perform it the universe gives it this template? Or something like that? I don't really understand how you can quantify this. It's like saying:

1 + 1 * 2(pretend fusion multiplier) = 5(4 + 1 from training in the fused form)

instead of:

1 + 1 * 2 = 4.

Which is how I see it. Where does this extra 1 come from? Do you see what I mean? I don't know if I'm being clear but new information can't be added to the end result unless it is stored somewhere in the fabric of the universe.

I don't think this issue is addressed anywhere.

And it's clear that Goten and Trunks did not have the ability to go SSJ2 or SSJ3 separately, so it would only make sense that the fusion's training applies solely or overwhelmingly to the fused form itself. Otherwise, Goku and Vegeta with SSJ2 potential fusing would've been able to hit SSJ3 with zero issue and probably hit the equivalent of SSJ4 (if we're assuming that SSJ4 needs all those stupid special conditions to work).

[Galan007]

Wasn't it also stated that Vegetto was an even more powerful amalgam because Goku and Vegeta were rivals? I'd always assumed that this 'rival-boost' was exclusive to Potara fusion, and thus made Vegetto's power>Gogeta's. /shrug

[Hitiro]

I, personally, have never accepted the idea that the kids were as strong as their dads, but even beyond that, it's almost literally impossible that Goku and Vegeta would train for X amount of years as intensely as they did after having already mastered the SSJ state, and still only be as strong as their prepubescent sons in the first SSJ form. I cannot buy that.

You say that but Goku had 10+ years of training on Gohan prior to the start of the Saiyan arc and Gohan without training was over twice as strong as his dad. In comparison Goten and Trunks have at least had some training. So it isn't that hard to believe.

A fused form can suppress its power level just like unfused fights. Any way you look at it, a saiyan has a base power and a series of power "unlocks" via super saiyan and the fusion multiplier, whatever it is, is likely static. So even IF Goten and Trunks were their dads' equals in SSJ, Goku and Vegeta would still completely outclass them with Gogeta by hitting SSJ2...and this isn't even taking Goku's ability to hit SSJ3 into account.

Well I'm not talking about them becoming a stronger transformation here. I'm just talking about them being as strong as their dads in equal transformations. Of course Gogeta is going to be superior if he whips out SSJ2.

I don't think this issue is addressed anywhere.

And it's clear that Goten and Trunks did not have the ability to go SSJ2 or SSJ3 separately, so it would only make sense that the fusion's training applies solely or overwhelmingly to the fused form itself. Otherwise, Goku and Vegeta with SSJ2 potential fusing would've been able to hit SSJ3 with zero issue and probably hit the equivalent of SSJ4 (if we're assuming that SSJ4 needs all those stupid special conditions to work).

Well it is understandable to work in the fused form to find out what the body can do. It is a new body after all so they have to re-discover triggers to transformations and how to do Ki attacks. It's a prime example of Goku fighting in Ginyu's body. Goku couldn't utilize all of Ginyu's power because it was a new body. And like that Ginyu couldn't utilize Goku's body because he couldn't use the Kaioken. He also couldn't use his maximum power of 90,000. So experimenting with the fused body is really a necessity. Goten and Trunks learnt how to trigger the SSJ transformation in that body. They also learnt how to trigger the SSJ3 transformation in that body. But with their own bodies they would have to learn how to trigger the SSJ3 transformation all over again because it's a different body. But I don't believe that training in the fused form would provide a permanent strength increase to the fused form unless the strength either divides up between the two fusion characters or somewhere in the universe there is some sort of cosmic memory system that keeps track of the fused forms strength. Because the fused forms strength comes directly from the two fusees from whatever formula the fusion uses. Therefore any strength they have accumulated in the fused form has to be shared across them otherwise it is basically resetting the fusion to the original strength when it factors in the strength of the fusees on the next fusion. Unless of course the latter option with some sort of cosmic memory is true. But frankly I don't see that option being realistic.

[dbzfan7]

The boys aren't levels upon levels below their fathers. Even if the dad's were 5x stronger, SSJ Gogeta would still not be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Let's say fusion is A+B *10

Goten: 1
Trunks: 1
Goku: 5
Vegeta: 5

1+1*10 =20

5+5*10=100

SSJ3 Gotenks= 20*400= 8000

SSJ Gogeta= 5000

The dad's need to at least be over 8x stronger for their SSJ Gogeta to surpass SSJ3 Gotenks. Even then that still wouldn't put SSJ Gogeta even near Vegetto or Boohan. I see no reason for fusion to suddenly change it's rules for Goku and Vegeta just cause it feels right to someone that both methods of fusion are close in power.

[i'mfuckingevil]

Here's the thing about Mystic Gohan.

I get the feeling that if Gohan kept on working out after the Cell saga, not only would he have been able to go SSJ3, but (if it were still necessary for him to become mystic) his mystic self would've been much more powerful.