How exactly does BoG conflict with the manga?

[Kakacarrottop]

It has just as many plot-holes as GT and is just as bad, yet BOG fanboys defend it to the death under the delusion that it's "canon" since Toriyama (who simply wants to grow his bank account) said so.

[Kamiccolo9]

It has just as many plot-holes as GT and is just as bad, yet BOG fanboys defend it to the death under the delusion that it's "canon" since Toriyama (who simply wants to grow his bank account) said so.

What a well thought out and irrefutable argument. I tremble in awe of your persuasive skills, and ability to defend your viewpoint with legitimate evidence, like examples and statistics.

[Lord Beerus]

It has just as many plot-holes as GT and is just as bad, yet BOG fanboys defend it to the death under the delusion that it's "canon" since Toriyama (who simply wants to grow his bank account) said so.

Seriously dude? If you're gonna criticize something, do it constructively. I love Battle Of Gods but it has flaws that I'm not afraid to admit and I'm not gonna view it as the greatest thing since sliced bread just because Toriyama was involved in it. Just because something has Toriyama involvement in it doesn't automatically make it great. I mean, I don't care for Dragon Ball Minus in the slightest. If Battle Of Gods has plot holes please provide detail of them, as that is the whole point of the thread. Because comments like that just make me think sometimes that Kanzenshuu is basically just the result of Reddit and NeoGAF doing the fusion dance.

[NitroEX]

There's also the whole Gohan turning Super Saiyan thing but that's been well documented on this forum already.

Bulma & Mai are women, so they could be lying about their ages.

Dude...

I don't see anything offensive with what he said.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There's also the whole Gohan turning Super Saiyan thing but that's been well documented on this forum already.

There is no plot-hole there. Gohan losing SS is a fan-theory.

Bulma & Mai are women, so they could be lying about their ages.

Dude...

I don't see anything offensive with what he said.

I'm not saying that every woman does it, but it is common for women to lie about their age (no offense)... Anyway, I'm not gonna talk about that anymore in a Dragon Ball forum.

[rereboy]

There is no plot-hole there. Gohan losing SS is a fan-theory.

Old kaioshin told Gohan to "turn SSJ or whatever he called it" after the ritual. Gohan tried to but he turned mystic instead. So, the manga clearly shows us that when Gohan, after the ritual, tries to go SSJ, he fails to do so and becomes mystic instead. What the manga shows =/= fan theory.

And even in BOG it is acknowledged by the people that did the movie that he shouldn't be turning SSJ since they actually went out of their way to make him be at base state/mystic instead of SSJ, except in one scene that might have been unintentional.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Old kaioshin told Gohan to "turn SSJ or whatever he called it" after the ritual. Gohan tried to but he turned mystic instead. So, the manga clearly shows us that when Gohan, after the ritual, tries to go SSJ, he fails to do so and becomes mystic instead. What the manga shows =/= fan theory.

That's what he says in the dub. In the manga, Rou Kaioshin told him to get the gist of turning into Super Saiyan and throw in a kiai.

On the other hand, Goku implies that he would use Fusion with Gohan as Super Saiyans, and then implies the same about the Potara, but Rou Kaioshin says him that they should transform after merging because they will stick like that, not because Gohan can't transform. "Gokhan" would be even able to go Super Saiyan according to Rou Kaioshin, and since he says that he won't need it because the Potara are so amazing that their base would be enough, not because Gohan's base would be enough. His hairstyle when he is not fighting is also different, his personality also changed after the power-up, and since Rou Kaioshin told him to power-up like when he transforms, all these imply that his Ultimate power-up works like a transformation, and Goku's & Rou Kaioshin's statements about Fusion/Potara imply that Gohan can go back to his normal base, and even transform into a Super Saiyan (and beyond).

And even in BOG it is acknowledged by the people that did the movie that he shouldn't be turning SSJ since they actually went out of their way to make him be at base state/mystic instead of SSJ, except in one scene that might have been unintentional.

It was changed because it didn't make sense for Gohan to hold back against Beerus.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm not saying that every woman does it, but it is common for women to lie about their age (no offense)... Anyway, I'm not gonna talk about that anymore in a Dragon Ball forum.

Bulma lying bout her age is pretty legit to me and perfectly fits in with her character in retrospect, with her being all vain about her appearance towards other people. Hell, she got mighty pissed at Goku fro bring up the fact she was old at the end of the series. And she was old at the end Dragon Ball, she was in her 50s.

[kuartus4]

. At the EoZ Goku is excited to fight Oob and suggests Oob could even beat him. Since BoG revealed Goku absorbed the god powers and kept them, that would make Goku hundreds of times stronger than Oob and there would be no excitement for a rematch much less the possibility of Goku losing to Oob. And iirc Goku even mentions not having had any challenges in 10 years which flies in the face of BoG and RoF.

[Darkprince410]

. At the EoZ Goku is excited to fight Oob and suggests Oob could even beat him. Since BoG revealed Goku absorbed the god powers and kept them, that would make Goku hundreds of times stronger than Oob and there would be no excitement for a rematch much less the possibility of Goku losing to Oob. And iirc Goku even mentions not having had any challenges in 10 years which flies in the face of BoG and RoF.

He absorbed and manage to retain "some" of his God ki, not all of it, and if anything, him absorbing that ki helps to explain how he jumped to Ssj3 levels of strength in his base form for whem he fought Uub.

[Low Tone G]

. At the EoZ Goku is excited to fight Oob and suggests Oob could even beat him. Since BoG revealed Goku absorbed the god powers and kept them, that would make Goku hundreds of times stronger than Oob and there would be no excitement for a rematch much less the possibility of Goku losing to Oob. And iirc Goku even mentions not having had any challenges in 10 years which flies in the face of BoG and RoF.

He absorbed and manage to retain "some" of his God ki, not all of it, and if anything, him absorbing that ki helps to explain how he jumped to Ssj3 levels of strength in his base form for whem he fought Uub.

Toriyama right out says that he absorbed that power and made his own. That couldn't really mean that he absorbed only a little fraction of it, because Toriyama also states Goku no longer needs to transform into a Super Saiyan God. If Goku absorbed only a small proportion of the God power, then the SSJ God ritual would be still uselful, isn't it?

For plot-holes:

Mine are this:

1.Mai's age
2.Bulma's age
3.Marron's age
4.Only one whish instead of 2 at least

My explanations

1. Mai had a reason to lie about her age as he was turned into a child, but she didn't. It's a true plot-hole there, because otherwise she should have said that she is at least 45 years old, but she said he is 41.
2. Bulma could very easily lie about her age, that act wouldn't be out of character, and she wanted to keep her age in secret before Krillin too, so I think it can be explained very well.
3. Marron was shown to just like she was in the Buu saga, but being that she shares a great resemblence with her father, Krillin, it can be explanied from a genetical point of view.
4. Maybe Dende decided to reduce the number of wishes as there was a no need for two or three wishes anymore, and he(she) rather upgraded that single wish to be able to grant literally everthing. So that's why in the following movie Frieza can be resurrected(In the trailer was mentioned that Shenlon will grant any one single wish only). Or the other two whises were used in the same year to make Pilaf and Co. younger and to restore King Kai's planet and the third wish was the Saiyan God summoning. Or the most unlikely is that Shenlon was too scared of Lord Beerus, then didn't offer the last two wishes and chose to leave.

[RandomGuy96]

Off the top of my head:

-Mai's age. There's no way she was 11 in the first arc.

-Bulma's age: she says she's 38. She'd actually be in her 40s. I've heard many people try to justify this as her lying, but having seen the scene myself, that really, really doesn't match what actually happened.

-Godku: Goku apparently absorbs the power of SSG (somehow) by the end of the movie. This completely messes up the actual ending of the manga, where Goku is still excited about fighting a Pure Buu-level opponent, and says that said opponent has a chance of beating him.

-Ragegeta: Vegeta gets a rather large rage boost, despite that explicitly being Gohan's shtick, and Vegeta never, ever getting a rage boost in the manga despite the numerous occasions where it would have been extremely helpful. Again, fan wank can explain all this away, but the mere fact that fan wank has to be created to explain it cements it as a plot hole.

-Trunks' appearance: Trunks is 13 years old in this movie, and still is like 3 feet tall. This is despite the fact that 13-14 year old Trunks didn't look anything like that in the future Trunks special, and how Gohan, at least, had a steady, human-like growth rate.

-Mr. Satan not knowing who Dende is: Mr. Satan met Dende in the Buu arc, and in fact spent a significant amount of time with him. He doesn't recognize him in BOG.

-Gotenks lacking Super Saiyan 3: self-explanatory. If we are to truly believe that Gohan actually was "Ultimate", there's zero reason for Gotenks not to use SS3 in his sole appearance if he truly had it. He didn't, so he doesn't. Again, maybe you could fan-wank it as "Gotenks was just that dumb for some reason", but that would again be a plot hole, because you actually have to explain it. It's about as valid as pointing out how Goku lacking regular Super Saiyan in movie 3 is a contradiction, if someone tries to say that movie takes place between the androids and Freeza.

-Gohan turning Super Saiyan: this one has already been discussed. Suffice to say, this is another occasion where you CAN fan wank an explanation if you really want to, but the movie itself never explains, despite the seeming contradiction between this scene and the scene where Gohan first goes "Ultimate". On that note, it seems pretty obvious that Gohan was always going to be a Super Saiyan until some fans pointed out how it made no sense.

-The wishes: as has been pointed out, Shenron granted the incorrect number of wishes.

So yeah. There are about as many contradictions between BOG and the manga as there are between the manga and most of the movies. That's taking it as a standalone product, of course. Toriyama's interviews and DB: Minus seem to be trying to link BOG and the manga despite the many contradictions.

[Kaboom]

-Mai's age. There's no way she was 11 in the first arc.
-Bulma's age: she says she's 38. She'd actually be in her 40s. I've heard many people try to justify this as her lying, but having seen the scene myself, that really, really doesn't match what actually happened.

These are the only actual inconsistencies. They're possibly a result of the movie originally being planned for an earlier setting, but who knows. It's still easy enough to hand-wave with "women tend to lie about their age," but it doesn't really hurt the story in any way regardless.

-Godku: Goku apparently absorbs the power of SSG (somehow) by the end of the movie. This completely messes up the actual ending of the manga, where Goku is still excited about fighting a Pure Buu-level opponent, and says that said opponent has a chance of beating him.

Too early to call this a contradiction or conflict. We've got at least one more movie on the way, and possible more after it, being a direct sequel to Battle of Gods. There's no way to know if or how the status quo could be shaken further.

-Ragegeta: Vegeta gets a rather large rage boost, despite that explicitly being Gohan's shtick, and Vegeta never, ever getting a rage boost in the manga despite the numerous occasions where it would have been extremely helpful. Again, fan wank can explain all this away, but the mere fact that fan wank has to be created to explain it cements it as a plot hole.

It's not a plot hole just because it's something that hasn't happened before. Vegeta couldn't or didn't get "rage boosts" before, but now he can. It'd be a problem if the movie was set before some big part of the series, but it's not. It's a new development. Maybe it'll be explained for us, or maybe we'll just have to explain it for ourselves.

-Trunks' appearance: Trunks is 13 years old in this movie, and still is like 3 feet tall. This is despite the fact that 13-14 year old Trunks didn't look anything like that in the future Trunks special, and how Gohan, at least, had a steady, human-like growth rate.

The present Trunks was also born a lot stronger than his future counterpart, too, so it could easily be chalked up to another difference in the timelines. Or heck, maybe li'l Trunks is JUST about to hit his growth spurt at 14.

-Mr. Satan not knowing who Dende is: Mr. Satan met Dende in the Buu arc, and in fact spent a significant amount of time with him. He doesn't recognize him in BOG.

Ol' Mark spent most of the movie drunk off his gourd. Easy to use that to explain it.

-Gotenks lacking Super Saiyan 3: self-explanatory. If we are to truly believe that Gohan actually was "Ultimate", there's zero reason for Gotenks not to use SS3 in his sole appearance if he truly had it. He didn't, so he doesn't. Again, maybe you could fan-wank it as "Gotenks was just that dumb for some reason", but that would again be a plot hole, because you actually have to explain it. It's about as valid as pointing out how Goku lacking regular Super Saiyan in movie 3 is a contradiction, if someone tries to say that movie takes place between the androids and Freeza.

Despite what you said, Gotenks not using Super Saiyan 3 doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have it. Maybe he DID lose the ability as a result of Goten and Trunks slacking or something, but we don't know for sure. Besides, saying "if they don't use it they don't have it" is nonsensical anyway. Goku could have used the fake-out version of the Rock-Paper-Scissors fist to gain an edge over Beerus, but he didn't. Doesn't mean he doesn't still have that move in his repertoire.

-Gohan turning Super Saiyan: this one has already been discussed. Suffice to say, this is another occasion where you CAN fan wank an explanation if you really want to, but the movie itself never explains, despite the seeming contradiction between this scene and the scene where Gohan first goes "Ultimate". On that note, it seems pretty obvious that Gohan was always going to be a Super Saiyan until some fans pointed out how it made no sense.

Since neither the manga, the guidebooks, or Toriyama himself have ever given us an in-depth explanation of how Gohan's power works now, anything we could discuss or "decide" about his capacity for Super Saiyan is all just fan-theory. Which a new work, especially one spearheaded by Toriyama himself, isn't under any obligation to adhere to.

-The wishes: as has been pointed out, Shenron granted the incorrect number of wishes.

Shenlong didn't really grant ANY wishes in Battle of Gods. He gave the explanation for Super Saiyan God, then high-tailed it out of there because he was scared of Beerus.

But even if giving that exposition did count as a wish, it doesn't mean there was anything wrong. We've been shown that if you don't need 3 wishes granted at once, you can dismiss Shenlong after one or two and then re-summon him earlier than usual for the rest. It's totally possible that they'd wished for something fairly recently and only had one wish left.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-Trunks' appearance: Trunks is 13 years old in this movie, and still is like 3 feet tall. This is despite the fact that 13-14 year old Trunks didn't look anything like that in the future Trunks special, and how Gohan, at least, had a steady, human-like growth rate.

Trunks was 12 in BoG, and 14 in the Special. There is plenty of time for him to get taller.

-Mr. Satan not knowing who Dende is: Mr. Satan met Dende in the Buu arc, and in fact spent a significant amount of time with him. He doesn't recognize him in BOG.

Satan was drunk, so it's not necessarily a plot-hole.

-Gotenks lacking Super Saiyan 3: self-explanatory. If we are to truly believe that Gohan actually was "Ultimate", there's zero reason for Gotenks not to use SS3 in his sole appearance if he truly had it. He didn't, so he doesn't. Again, maybe you could fan-wank it as "Gotenks was just that dumb for some reason", but that would again be a plot hole, because you actually have to explain it. It's about as valid as pointing out how Goku lacking regular Super Saiyan in movie 3 is a contradiction, if someone tries to say that movie takes place between the androids and Freeza.

So, #17 defeating base Trunks is a plot-hole in GT because Trunks never used SS against him?

The present Trunks was also born a lot stronger than his future counterpart

Where are you getting that from?

[Kaboom]

The present Trunks was also born a lot stronger than his future counterpart

Where are you getting that from?

Well, I guess maybe not born stronger, but still a lot stronger by an even younger age. If play-fighting with Goten caused Trunks to be several times stronger than his future self actually doing serious training under Gohan, then clearly there's some big underlying differences between the two Trunkseses.

[RandomGuy96]

Too early to call this a contradiction or conflict. We've got at least one more movie on the way, and possible more after it, being a direct sequel to Battle of Gods. There's no way to know if or how the status quo could be shaken further.

Again, taking it as a standalone product. A plot hole that is then retconned later is still a plot hole for the time being.

It's not a plot hole just because it's something that hasn't happened before. Vegeta couldn't or didn't get "rage boosts" before, but now he can. It'd be a problem if the movie was set before some big part of the series, but it's not. It's a new development. Maybe it'll be explained for us, or maybe we'll just have to explain it for ourselves.

This falls into the "fan wank" category I was talking about. You CAN try to explain why he didn't a rage boost at any other time, even when it would be really useful, but you're working with absolutely nothing here, as the movie gives you absolutely nothing to work with. It just comes and goes. If it requires fans to make up stuff to explain how it's not a contradiction, then the movie has a plot hole. The only real explanation is that it might just be a gag scene, considering the writer's comments.

The present Trunks was also born a lot stronger than his future counterpart, too, so it could easily be chalked up to another difference in the timelines. Or heck, maybe li'l Trunks is JUST about to hit his growth spurt at 14.

No he wasn't. He GOT a lot stronger at a younger age. There's no indication he was born with that much power.

Ol' Mark spent most of the movie drunk off his gourd. Easy to use that to explain it.

He didn't act drunk during that scene, and no one ever alluded to Mark meeting Dende before, even when that would have been something you might logically bring up if it looks like he's forgetting.

Despite what you said, Gotenks not using Super Saiyan 3 doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have it. Maybe he DID lose the ability as a result of Goten and Trunks slacking or something, but we don't know for sure. Besides, saying "if they don't use it they don't have it" is nonsensical anyway. Goku could have used the fake-out version of the Rock-Paper-Scissors fist to gain an edge over Beerus, but he didn't. Doesn't mean he doesn't still have that move in his repertoire.

Again, fan wank being required to explain a plot hole. If they lost the ability to go SS3, then the movie should have spared a line of dialogue for it.

No, it's not. Goten and Trunks have both explicitly acknowledged Gohan's superiority to them, and they went SS3 instantly the last time they fused as Gotenks (to fight Evil Boo). Them not using it this time is a plot hole unless there's an actual explanation for it. Which there's not. One could, for example, try to argue that movie 4 takes place between Freeza and the androids using similar logic.

"Just because Goku didn't use Super Saiyan doesn't mean he didn't have it! He just lost the ability to use it for about a year, then regained it for the rest of the time. Everyone was shocked he regained it so suddenly, but then he lost it again."

Since neither the manga, the guidebooks, or Toriyama himself have ever given us an in-depth explanation of how Gohan's power works now, anything we could discuss or "decide" about his capacity for Super Saiyan is all just fan-theory. Which a new work, especially one spearheaded by Toriyama himself, isn't under any obligation to adhere to.

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”

The manga tells us right here how it works. He attempts to transform into a Super Saiyan, but becomes "Ultimate" instead. Now, again, fan wank can be used to explain this. You can be all like "oh well, he said to add in a kiai (even though that part wasn't even in the official translation), which somehow makes a huge difference*, and then he later learned about that huge difference off-screen". But the movie never bothers to explain this. Again, it would be an extremely simple matter. Just one line of dialogue.

*Am I the only one who interpreted the kiai as being completely unnecessary, and just a sign of Elder Kaioshin's love of being dramatic?

Shenlong didn't really grant ANY wishes in Battle of Gods. He gave the explanation for Super Saiyan God, then high-tailed it out of there because he was scared of Beerus.

But even if giving that exposition did count as a wish, it doesn't mean there was anything wrong. We've been shown that if you don't need 3 wishes granted at once, you can dismiss Shenlong after one or two and then re-summon him earlier than usual for the rest. It's totally possible that they'd wished for something fairly recently and only had one wish left.

If they had wished for something, that would have been noted. Again, it would take one line of dialogue. The fact that so many of these contradictions have simple fixes makes it fairly obvious that the people making this movie just forgot.

Satan was drunk, so it's not necessarily a plot-hole.

If you have a very stringent definition of plot hole.

So, #17 defeating base Trunks is a plot-hole in GT because Trunks never used SS against him?

Yes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, I guess maybe not born stronger, but still a lot stronger by an even younger age. If play-fighting with Goten caused Trunks to be several times stronger than his future self actually doing serious training under Gohan, then clearly there's some big underlying differences between the two Trunkseses.

That would make them different because of their different life experiences, not because of their genetics. Goten & Trunks have apparently been "playing fight" for years, since Goten doesn't remember how long he can turn Super Saiyan, and they have even mastered Super Saiyan from the looks of it. Future Trunks apparently started training at 14, since base Gohan with one arm didn't need to put any effort against SS Trunks, and then stayed for 3 years to train alone, without any great martial artist, senzu, gravity room, or RoSaT to help him.

[Hellspawn28]

It has just as many plot-holes as GT and is just as bad, yet BOG fanboys defend it to the death under the delusion that it's "canon" since Toriyama (who simply wants to grow his bank account) said so.

I'm sorry but no it does not. BOG has some minor plot holes but they are not as big and major as GT. I don't see how BOG conflicts with the manga since Toriyama wrote BOG and fits better then it does with the older films like DBZ Movie 7 or DBZ Movie 3.

[kuartus4]

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”

The manga tells us right here how it works. He attempts to transform into a Super Saiyan, but becomes "Ultimate" instead.

He didn't attempt to transform into a super saiyan. He was attempting to transform into 'mystic' form with the gist of super saiyan and a kiai thrown in. There's a difference. Gohan never said, "Alright, I'm gonna try to transform into super saiyan". If he had said that you would have a point. But he didn't say that because that's not what he was trying to achieve.

Maybe the state he transforms into depends on what his intentions are. If he intends to transform into ssj then he'll turn ssj. If he intends to transform into mystic, then he'll turn mystic.

[Low Tone G]

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”

The manga tells us right here how it works. He attempts to transform into a Super Saiyan, but becomes "Ultimate" instead.

He didn't attempt to transform into a super saiyan. He was attempting to transform into 'mystic' form with the gist of super saiyan and a kiai thrown in. There's a difference. Gohan never said, "Alright, I'm gonna try to transform into super saiyan". If he had said that you would have a point. But he didn't say that because that's not what he was trying to achieve.

Maybe the state he transforms into depends on what his intentions are. If he intends to transform into ssj then he'll turn ssj. If he intends to transform into mystic, then he'll turn mystic.

I think it's not that simple. That throw in a Kiai is not the same thing like to turn Super Saiyan? That Kiai word doesn't simply mean the most primitive form of energy blast?