Who's stronger: Super Perfect Cell or SSJ2 Gohan?

[mAcChaos]

Does a broken arm really influence chi though? Physical body and chi are different.

I mean look at Vegito. He was a piece of candy and it didn't drop his power at all.

[Hitiro]

Does a broken arm really influence chi though? Physical body and chi are different.

I mean look at Vegito. He was a piece of candy and it didn't drop his power at all.

According to Gohan himself, he lost half of his Ki after losing his arm. In martial arts it's the body that produces Ki so if it is damaged then Ki is influenced.

[FindKenshi]

Does a broken arm really influence chi though? Physical body and chi are different.

I mean look at Vegito. He was a piece of candy and it didn't drop his power at all.

According to Gohan himself, he lost half of his Ki after losing his arm. In martial arts it's the body that produces Ki so if it is damaged then Ki is influenced.

Actually Gohan was just doubting himself, and coming up with excuses. That's why his ki dropped. Like Goku said, he was holding back. Toriyama says that body and ki are seperate in Super Exciting Guide, and it's possible to train one and not the other, and vice versa. Sure taking physical damage lowers your ki, as is stated many times in the series, but that's because the pain and injury causes them to lose focus. If they focus their mind and believe in themselves like Gohan did, they can draw out the power anyway--like when Daniel got his leg broke in Karate Kid. His leg might have been broken, but his ki and fighting spirit didn't falter in the slightest, and he went on to win the tournament.

[Hitiro]

Actually Gohan was just doubting himself, and coming up with excuses. That's why his ki dropped. Like Goku said, he was holding back. Toriyama says that body and ki are seperate in Super Exciting Guide, and it's possible to train one and not the other, and vice versa. Sure taking physical damage lowers your ki, as is stated many times in the series, but that's because the pain and injury causes them to lose focus. If they focus their mind and believe in themselves like Gohan did, they can draw out the power anyway--like when Daniel got his leg broke in Karate Kid. His leg might have been broken, but his ki and fighting spirit didn't falter in the slightest, and he went on to win the tournament.

Well, you can't really say that his Ki dropped to over half its amount because he was doubting himself. Goku never disagree'd that Gohan had lost half of his Ki. He just believed Gohan could still beat Cell with the Ki he had remaining. Even after Goku got Gohan motivated nobody noticed a change in Gohan's Ki. Piccolo still gave an affirmation that Gohan's Ki had shrunk. And where does Toriyama say that body and Ki are separate? The only thing he says about it is that there are physical limits to a persons body and to surpass those limits you must gain more Ki. Which is actual martial arts philosophy anyway.

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

Nowhere in this comment does he say that the body doesn't influence Ki or vice versa. I can understand that Gohan's frame of mind would effect his Ki slightly. But not to the extent of him losing half of his Ki. The injury was surely the cause. What Akira Toriyama talks about in the SEG does not contradict martial arts philosophy. Which is Ki comes from and is generated from the body. Frankly I would find it weird that he would use martial arts and Ki but make up totally different rules for them just because he can. It really makes no sense for him to do that.

[FindKenshi]

You know I just remembered that I actually made a guide to the SPC vs SSJ2 Gohan debate.. I was feeling ambitious and wanted to make "debate guides" similar to Herm's guides.. where I examine some of the longest running and most heated fan debates, and not provide an opinion one way or the other, but just basically compile all the evidence commonly used by both sides, while also asking people to chip in with new ideas and new ways at tackling some of the debates. I had planned to cover all the hottest topics from what form of SSj Gohan was while fighting Dabura, to Kid Buu vs Super Buu and a lot more.. I never accomplished any of that, but I did complete the first guide in the series, which is what this topic is about.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&p=534947

Tell me what you guys think. Again, I'm not offering one opinion to the other, I'm just trying to represent both sides of this debate and compile all the commonly used evidence and arguments commonly used on both sides.

Oh forgot to mention, look but don't touch. Necro-bumping old threads is frowned upon here, and it wasn't good enough to get stickied.. ahh maybe if I had completed the series like I had planned, but I just wasn't ambitious enough.
EDIT: WOW! That was way back in 2012.. seems like it was only yesterday.

[RandomGuy96]

You know I just remembered that I actually made a guide to the SPC vs SSJ2 Gohan debate.. I was feeling ambitious and wanted to make "debate guides" similar to Herm's guides.. where I examine some of the longest running and most heated fan debates, and not provide an opinion one way or the other, but just basically compile all the evidence commonly used by both sides, while also asking people to chip in with new ideas and new ways at tackling some of the debates. I had planned to cover all the hottest topics from what form of SSj Gohan was while fighting Dabura, to Kid Buu vs Super Buu and a lot more.. I never accomplished any of that, but I did complete the first guide in the series, which is what this topic is about.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&p=534947

Tell me what you guys think. Again, I'm not offering one opinion to the other, I'm just trying to represent both sides of this debate and compile all the commonly used evidence and arguments commonly used on both sides.

Oh forgot to mention, look but don't touch. Necro-bumping old threads is frowned upon here, and it wasn't good enough to get stickied.. ahh maybe if I had completed the series like I had planned, but I just wasn't ambitious enough.
EDIT: WOW! That was way back in 2012.. seems like it was only yesterday.

I remember reading that a while ago. It seems pretty well put-together. I'd be interested in seeing one for the Dabra issue. But not the Buu one. In my opinion, that's just giving undeserved legitimacy to a stance with no real evidence.

[FindKenshi]

Alas, I've been "out of the loop" for too long. I don't even remember all these argument points, at the time I wrote that guide I felt like I had every argument for both sides of every debate practically memorized, since I participated in them so much. Also I no longer have access to the manga due to some damage that happened to my possession during long term storage nor do I have photoshop anymore, so I couldn't create nifty visuals to spice it up. But the main reason of me basically forgetting everything (kinda like Toriyama) means I'm no longer fit to create a 'debate guide.'

Plus, these debates really have died down over the years. Back then it seemed like the more common topics were made here and every other forum weekly.. now it's like.. we all got bored of that lol

[Hugo Boss]

And where does Toriyama say that body and Ki are separate? The only thing he says about it is that there are physical limits to a persons body and to surpass those limits you must gain more Ki. Which is actual martial arts philosophy anyway.

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

Nowhere in this comment does he say that the body doesn't influence Ki or vice versa. I can understand that Gohan's frame of mind would effect his Ki slightly. But not to the extent of him losing half of his Ki. The injury was surely the cause. What Akira Toriyama talks about in the SEG does not contradict martial arts philosophy. Which is Ki comes from and is generated from the body. Frankly I would find it weird that he would use martial arts and Ki but make up totally different rules for them just because he can. It really makes no sense for him to do that.

It practically suggests physical strenght and spiritual powers are separated things, which you call body and ki. But they are not independent from each other, as we can see from Ginyu-Goku incident. It happens that you can't use all your power if body and mind are not synchronized. Injuries, pain, doubt, fear can affect one's spirit, but if you have right-mindedness, courage and energy you can overcome your body's limits. That's how I understood from the comment also. Despite all those obstacles, Gohan was able to use his full power.

[EXBadguy]

I'd say both are equally strong. As some people said, the end of Cell was half luck.

[fadeddreams5]

Either SPC is significantly weaker, or they're both exactly on par, imo. The first argument applies to Gohan too; he seemed completely confident in taking on Cell by himself until saving Vegeta led to a non-functioning arm. Not to mention Cell's ENTIRE CHARACTER was basically the personification of ego itself; he would never accept anyone being more powerful than him, the "perfect" fighter, so of course he'd come back instead of strategizing elsewhere. As for the third argument, Gohan had a broken arm and was also psychologically damaged from seeing his father die in front of his face because of something he failed to do. Cell was at a clear, all-around advantage.

[KentalSSJ6]

I would say Cell. Even though Gohan was a SSJ2 for a decent amount of time, not once did he show that it tired or labored him. He was never tired, panting, etc. He even goes SSJ2 again with no trouble at all when Cell comes back with a smile on his face so that would lead me to believe he was still more or less around full power.

Then Cell throws what appears to be a casual Ki blast at Vegeta which Gohan dives to intercepts, resulting in his arm being broken. If it was capable of busting Gohan's arm while he was more or less still at peak condition with his SSJ2, I would have to say Cell was stronger by a decent margin.

[Hitiro]

It practically suggests physical strenght and spiritual powers are separated things, which you call body and ki. But they are not independent from each other, as we can see from Ginyu-Goku incident. It happens that you can't use all your power if body and mind are not synchronized. Injuries, pain, doubt, fear can affect one's spirit, but if you have right-mindedness, courage and energy you can overcome your body's limits. That's how I understood from the comment also. Despite all those obstacles, Gohan was able to use his full power.

It really doesn't suggest anything except Ki amplifies your physical strength beyond your physical limits. Which is what Ki is for in martial arts anyway if you believe in the martial arts philosophy. But if you follow that stuff you can't use 100% of your Ki if you have injuries no matter how right-minded or courageous you are. No increase in Gohan's power is ever noted during the Kamehameha struggle apart from Piccolo who says Gohan is severely weakened. This comment was made after Gohan was in the right mindset(Thanks to Goku). I would think if Gohan's Ki shot up to double what it was at that point somebody would have made the affirmation. All we get from the fight is that Gohan only needed half of his Ki to beat Cell.

Which makes me believe that 50% and 100% SSJ2 Gohan are more powerful than Super Perfect Cell. I mean if you take the stance that characters can use 100% of their Ki in the right mindset even with severe injuries then why are the other characters so flummoxed about how the battle will go half the time? Surely it would make sense to cheer on the character to make them use 100% again. Not worry about the decrease in power because of an injury. It would be like this "Oh, Gohan got injured! Come on Gohan! Don't let it affect you! You can still use 100% if you're of the right frame of mind!" Not "Damn, Gohan is injured! His Ki has tanked... This is looking hopeless.." If they understood they could use 100% if they had the right mindset then why would Gohan even care about losing half of his Ki unless it was a permanent decrease until he can be healed?

I would assume the characters would understand the concept you're implying if they have done it several times already so they shouldn't even care about injuries and just put themselves into the right frame of mind all the time. Not panic all the time because of injuries.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't know if they even have that deep knowledge of this concept, but the comment pretty much describe ki as a spiritual power, unless you think body and spirit are the same thing. The thing about Gohan using his full power was something suggested by Goku when he told Gohan to get angry. Goku himself was barely able to move when he defeated Piccolo.

[Hitiro]

I don't know if they even have that deep knowledge of this concept, but the comment pretty much describe ki as a spiritual power, unless you think body and spirit are the same thing. The thing about Gohan using his full power was something suggested by Goku when he told Gohan to get angry. Goku himself was barely able to move when he defeated Piccolo.

Why would they lack knowledge of the concept if they have done it several times? Ki is a concept which includes spiritual powers. It doesn't say that it is just spiritual. What is said in the SEG is "Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers" Therefore Ki itself isn't spiritual power. But it does include it. Ki has both physical and spiritual properties. If you're an unfit person like myself then you're going to have worse Ki than someone like Bruce Lee who has honed his body to physical perfection. As such, because Ki has physical properties as well it stands to reason that injuries and sickness are going to affect your Ki. Much like how Goku when he had the heart virus wasn't able to pull out his full power.

Goku never used the words "full power" when Gohan was doing the beam struggle. What Goku said was "Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!!! You haven't used all of your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!" As for Goku defeating Piccolo, either of those times he did can be attributed to how it was done and how weakened Piccolo was too. Piccolo wasted his Ki trying to destroy Goku on both occasions. And Goku launched himself at incredible speeds to do the damage he did on him. Completely different examples compared to a full-power Cell and a 50% Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

Why would they lack knowledge of the concept if they have done it several times?

Because aside from SEG's comment I never read ki concept so deep explained. Even when Gohan was teaching Videl, he basically explained it as what flows inside your body, called "energy" or "power".

Ki is a concept which includes spiritual powers. It doesn't say that it is just spiritual. What is said in the SEG is "Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers" Therefore Ki itself isn't spiritual power. But it does include it. Ki has both physical and spiritual properties.

Hmm. I think that way it would be a lazy description of the concept. If it includes more than spiritual powers, I guess they should be more specific, then.

Goku never used the words "full power" when Gohan was doing the beam struggle. What Goku said was "Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!!! You haven't used all of your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!" As for Goku defeating Piccolo, either of those times he did can be attributed to how it was done and how weakened Piccolo was too. Piccolo wasted his Ki trying to destroy Goku on both occasions. And Goku launched himself at incredible speeds to do the damage he did on him. Completely different examples compared to a full-power Cell and a 50% Gohan.

I honestly don't see the difference. Goku is telling Gohan to use all his power in both situations. I guess the only difference is that adult Gohan failed to follow Goku's advice, while the kid... I could swear Goku was more badly injured when he fought the Piccolos than Gohan against Cell.

[FindKenshi]

Well Hugo that gets into a very sticky subject about the actual nature of ki mechanics that is quite frankly never touched upon in the manga or guidebooks either as far as I know--I'm talking "advanced theory" stuff such as battle power, energy reserves, and the like.

For example if someone has a battle power of 1000, and fire a blast, does their battle power on the scouter change to 980 since they just expended some of their ki? For example, the warriors other than Buu and the Cyborgs wear themselves out as they continue to fight.

Or does it just mean someone with said power of 1000 can fire a blast and slowly run out of ki, but their battle power would maintain at 1000 until they are completely drained.

It's just advanced fan theory with no right or wrong answer, really hard to nail something so abstract down.

[Hugo Boss]

Nail's regeneration was noted by Freeza to have depleted some of Nail's battlepower. That conditions would require a compensation, could Nail retrieve his full power is he focus enough? Maybe.

In a RPG's perspective I think you could factor the stamina. Kaioken is an odd technique, though. I guess Goku somehow converts his reserved stamina into multiplied battlepower. Maybe Super Saiyan and its upgrades go even deeper in the concept. Kaioken x20 and SS3 for instance empied Goku's stamina.

[TheLegend23]

Keep in mind I'm not just talking about SSJ2 Gohan after he was weakened.

I'm talking about SSJ2 Gohan when he was perfectly healthy, being weaker than SPC.

I don't think he was stronger than cell. In reality it wasn't just gohan who beat cell, it took the help of goku and the others(Not sure if their help was effective as gokus but he didn't do it alone)

[Hitiro]

Why would they lack knowledge of the concept if they have done it several times?

Because aside from SEG's comment I never read ki concept so deep explained. Even when Gohan was teaching Videl, he basically explained it as what flows inside your body, called "energy" or "power".

The concept of Ki is something that already exists in martial arts philosophy. Akira Toriyama isn't going to reinvent what it is just for the manga. It is the same as Chakra in Naruto. Chakra is also something that already exists in Hindu philosophy. What Gohan explained to Videl is a very basic description of it for her to understand what it is. Even though technically she should know what it is being a martial artist herself.

Ki is a concept which includes spiritual powers. It doesn't say that it is just spiritual. What is said in the SEG is "Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers" Therefore Ki itself isn't spiritual power. But it does include it. Ki has both physical and spiritual properties.

Hmm. I think that way it would be a lazy description of the concept. If it includes more than spiritual powers, I guess they should be more specific, then.

They don't really need to be specific. If you want to know what Ki is then I suggest you read up on its philosophy in martial arts. Because that is all that it is. It's a form of energy linked to the body and spirit of the individual that is effected by both physical and spiritual elements. Hence why in the SEG Toriyama says that Ki includes such spiritual powers as courage, energy, and right-mindedness. Unless Akira Toriyama specifically tells us that the philosophy of Ki in the Dragon Ball universe is different from our own there is no reason to assume it is. To be honest, that would be needlessly making more work for himself.

I mean there are books on this which talk about how Ki is affected through physical things like how it can decline through advanced age. There are even physical elements like fire or water that have Ki yet have no life/spirit. So it isn't only based on spiritual stuff. As Toriyama's point kind of indicates because "includes" doesn't mean that it is solely spiritual power.

Goku never used the words "full power" when Gohan was doing the beam struggle. What Goku said was "Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!!! You haven't used all of your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!" As for Goku defeating Piccolo, either of those times he did can be attributed to how it was done and how weakened Piccolo was too. Piccolo wasted his Ki trying to destroy Goku on both occasions. And Goku launched himself at incredible speeds to do the damage he did on him. Completely different examples compared to a full-power Cell and a 50% Gohan.

I honestly don't see the difference. Goku is telling Gohan to use all his power in both situations. I guess the only difference is that adult Gohan failed to follow Goku's advice, while the kid... I could swear Goku was more badly injured when he fought the Piccolos than Gohan against Cell.

Because using all of your power doesn't necessarily denote your full power. I could only have 20% of my Ki left(due to injury or exhaustion) while I'm fighting and I could only be using 18% of my Ki while I fight which would mean I'm not using all of my power yet. But if you were to say I haven't used my full power yet then that would be impossible seeing as I can only output 20% of my full power. You're comparing Goku's fights against the two Piccolo's to the Cell fight though. They're completely different. In both cases of the Piccolo fights, Piccolo used a huge portion of his Ki to try and defeat Goku. So Piccolo didn't have 100% of his Ki at the end of either fight. You can go check back in the manga if you want. Goku also confirms his power had dropped considerably. So how is two fights(Piccolo vs. Goku) where both characters are considerably weakened the same as one fight(Cell vs. Gohan) where only one person is weakened?

[Cursed Lemon]

I don't like judging SPC vs. SSJ2 Gohan by the beam struggle.

Gohan said that his energy was cut in half, which is easily believable. The problem comes when you talk about ki/body dualism (yes I went there), and energy output.

For example, take the idea of a tank of compressed air. If you turn the nozzle, it begins to let out air in a steady stream. Turn the nuzzle more, it lets out more air. Let out too much air at once, and the tank will rupture and explode. It's a good analogy to codify how DBZ characters expend their energy; there's sort of a "bell curve" depicting how much ki all the different characters can possibly output at one time, with Gohan sitting at the far right when he is angry. It also suggests that there is a physical limit to how much power a person can output at once before harm is done to them - a phenomenon more or less confirmed by Vegeta's suicide.

So we can say, Gohan has the prodigious ability to output far more energy at one time than any other character when weighed against their relative strength. His anger boosting his energy output explains his meteoric rise to SSJ2 and his defeat of Cell when so badly injured and drained, and also means that an enraged Gohan could feasibly out-shoot characters a fair bit stronger than him. But it does not mean a thing about Gohan's capabilities against SPC in a normal punches-and-kicks battle.

At no point prior to losing the use of his arm did Gohan ever show the slightest hint of getting winded. This suggests that his ascension to SSJ2 was not taxing in and of itself, and not an over-extension of his ki resources. Also worth noting is that before Vegeta got bitchsmacked, Gohan did not show any fear in confronting Cell after he resurrected. It wasn't until he became injured that he started to have doubts about his ability to defeat Cell.