Why you really did not like Dragon Ball GT/parts of it

[NeoKING]

The original Japanese version of is a fun ride. The only real criticism I had of GT was that it's animation, while beautiful, could be very shoddy at times, and sometimes it's story elements took some oddly bizarre turns. But, I would not say that to bash GT of rehashing concepts is a fair criticism.

GT, compared to Z, didn't have a comic chapter-to-episode ratio to keep up with, so the pacing in GT was fast compared to what we're used to. Does GT have plotholes? Yes. But honestly, as I watched it, I never really got my panties in a bunch over there being a secret set of Dragon Balls that no one knew about until now, why? Because from the beginning of DB to the end, it was made awfully clear that the Dragon Balls became an AFTERTHOUGHT. How many rules did Shenlong have in the beginning of DB compared to the end? How many wishes now? How many people can suddenly be revived at once? The Dragon Balls were literally given new powers as the plot advanced. So, having the writers throwing in the Ultimate Dragon Balls after we were already thrown the Namekian Dragon Balls wasn't that big of a surprise to me. "New DBs, new adventurous search," that's all you're supposed to get from it. The writers obviously didn't care for "We have to make the watchers think about how these DBs could possibly exist but not be detected by the radar!"

Next big criticism: "No one ever does anything (win) but Goku."

Goku takes down all the bad guys. GT means Goku Time. Funny, because I thought the clock was stuck on Goku Time since Episode 1 of Dragon Ball. That darn Goku, how dare he hog the spotlight from Bulma and not have her take down that creature from the first episode. Obviously Pu'ar was supposed to take down the Red Ribbon Army but that dog'garn Toriyama seems to have this raging hard-on for the Saiyuki rip-off. Raditz is Goku's brother? C'mon, he's obviously supposed to be Yajirobe's. How people have not realized that Goku is the star of this show until GT baffles me, actually. But wait, Gohan beat Cell! Yeah, because he was the star of that saga. It was now Gohan's turn to pick up the mantle. But then we go back to Goku beating Boo. He also fought Beerus and became the Super Saiyan God. There that Toriyama goes again; Zygote Pan was supposed to be the God!

By GT, everyone has gotten older and is living relatively normal lives. The only one excited for adventure was literally Goku and Pan. Trunks was dragged along for the ride. Don't ask why Tenshinhan can't Shin Kikoho Baby Vegeta into the square-shaped ground for 3 episodes.

On-on to the next one: "GT is just a rehash of everything done before; the first few episodes were a rehash of DB; Baby is Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans; Super 17 is Fusion Reborn and another Android!"

No, I can list more, really. Goku vs. Baby Vegeta is a rehash of Goku vs. Vegeta and a sprinkle of Goku vs. Freeza. Kibitohshin getting the Ultra Holy Water? Psh, Dende and Popo already did that in the Garlic Jr. saga. The way Goku beats S17? Almost shot-for-shot the same way he beat the first Piccolo. Yi Xing Long was like the battles against Super Boo and Kid Boo put together. But, lets take a step back to the preceding series. Watch this:

Dragon Ball: First saga ends in an Ohzaru thrashing Pilaf's Palace; Goku deals with Red Ribbon Androids; Goku fights a magical being;
Dragon Ball Z: First saga ends in an Ohzaru thrashing the battlefield; Goku fights Freeza; Goku deals with Red Ribbon Androids; Goku fights a magical being (Replace "Ma" kanji with "M");
Dragon Ball GT: First saga has a Golden Ohzaru; Goku deals with a Machine Mutant Android; Goku fights a magical being;

The battle against Garlic Jr. was more or less a rehash from the battle with Raditz (save the "It's not canon" counter-argument; no one brings that up for PtEtS); movie 3 was like watching the battle against the Saiyans again -- even with transforming raging Ohzaru! I can go on. The Saiyan and Freeza sagas rehash each other. Look at Goku vs. Nappa and then Goku vs. Reacoom. How many times is Piccolo going to do his swallow-his-pride-and-dial-a-Namekian merger? For a while, Z was more or less, "We'll all do some training, suffer for a while, and then wait until Goku comes in and saves the day," and that while ended when Toriyama came up with the stealthy self-depreciating Boo saga. So how can you criticize the Baby saga for being like an obscure OVA that was released for some kind of video game console that wasn't really a video game console and never released outside of Japan until over ten years later, or say that S17 arc was like Fusion Reborn when S17 didn't end with Gogeta or Fusion Reborn didn't lead to Negative Dragon Balls giving birth to a black Shenlong smoking a Cuban? Stop pulling at straws, because they work fine as standalones.

And on the topic of Su Xing Long. He was a great character, but to say he was better written than Baby is really dragging it. Su Xing Long only stood out because he was a good guy that loved a fight, like Lezick. He also pulled that gambit against Yi Xing Long, and that was cool. But Baby's racism towards the Saiyans felt more real than Freeza's because he actually felt the genocide against the Saiyans. His plan to takeover the Earth while Goku and the GT crew were off searching for the DBs was a pretty good setup.

Oh, and Tokunaga's score is GOAT.

[Cetra]

GT means Goku Time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-FVvV3tG88

[ABED]

I think a number of the criticisms of the show are valid, but they can also be applied to Toriyama's work. However, Toriyama's humor was generally funnier, though I enjoyed GT's humor as well. My biggest issue was the execution of the fights. The felt pedestrian in comparison to fights like Piccolo or Vegeta vs. Goku. Finally, while I believe Goku was rightfully the main character, other characters could've contributed more. It would've been a fitting ending to the show to have more or less each of the Evil Dragons fought by different characters until the One Star Dragon.

Cetra, you're argument's invalid because you linked to a TFS video.

[NeoKING]

I think a number of the criticisms of the show are valid, but they can also be applied to Toriyama's work. However, Toriyama's humor was generally funnier, though I enjoyed GT's humor as well. My biggest issue was the execution of the fights. The felt pedestrian in comparison to fights like Piccolo or Vegeta vs. Goku. Finally, while I believe Goku was rightfully the main character, other characters could've contributed more. It would've been a fitting ending to the show to have more or less each of the Evil Dragons fought by different characters until the One Star Dragon.

Cetra, you're argument's invalid because you linked to a TFS video.

I don't know why so much people think it would've been a great idea that the other fighters fought the Evil Dragons. The Z-fighters at their primes couldn't even beat Cell Juniors.

GT criticism is 99% hypocrisy, really.

[Cetra]

I guess Gohan and Gotenks could have fought the first four dragons. Vegeta coming that late was good in my opinion.

I liked GT anyway but really, watching the original just makes me think of it even better. Before I have watched just a bit of the original.

[Kakacarrottop]

I guess Gohan and Gotenks could have fought the first four dragons. Vegeta coming that late was good in my opinion.

I liked GT anyway but really, watching the original just makes me think of it even better. Before I have watched just a bit of the original.

This. The FUNI Gt dub had some truly annoying voices (Giru anyone?) and is to me the only instance of the original music being better than the replacement music.

[ABED]

Well, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks held their own. They've trained and grew over time, plus fusion, and Gohan's power up. Also, the Dragons vary wildly in terms of power.
Gotenks vs. 2 Star Dragon
Gohan and Pan (and Goku?) vs. 6 Star Dragon
Gohan and Pan vs. 7 Star Dragon
Piccolo vs. 5 Star Dragon
Vegeta vs. 3 Star Dragon
Goku vs. 4 Star Dragon
Everyone vs. 1 Star Dragon

the only instance of the original music being better than the replacement music.

How dare you, sir.

[Cetra]

I guess Gohan and Gotenks could have fought the first four dragons. Vegeta coming that late was good in my opinion.

I liked GT anyway but really, watching the original just makes me think of it even better. Before I have watched just a bit of the original.

This. The FUNI Gt dub had some truly annoying voices (Giru anyone?) and is to me the only instance of the original music being better than the replacement music.

I think it is not just the voices per sé. I like the American voices but there is just such a different atmosphere in the original and there is no wrong text.

[Michelle91]

So how can you criticize the Baby saga for being like an obscure OVA that was released for some kind of video game console that wasn't really a video game console and never released outside of Japan until over ten years later.

In Japan, PTETS was still recent since it been out a few years in Japan when GT came out. What does it not being release outside of Japan have to do anything with it? Most DBZ fans already seen the OVA years ago before the 2010 remake since there was fan subs for it for ages.

[NeoKING]

So how can you criticize the Baby saga for being like an obscure OVA that was released for some kind of video game console that wasn't really a video game console and never released outside of Japan until over ten years later.

In Japan, PTETS was still recent since it been out a few years in Japan when GT came out. What does it not being release outside of Japan have to do anything with it? Most DBZ fans already seen the OVA years ago before the 2010 remake since there was fan subs for it for ages.

Most DBZ fans? Hardcore fans, maybe. Casual fans of the show likely had no idea it existed. And like I said in my mass-reply, it doesn't even stand up as a legit argument to me as a rehash/recycled concept, because like I said, Dragon Ball is built on rehashes.

[Eire]

Well, the problem is that neither of them managed to bring the conflict to interesting light.

[Cetra]

Really I have no problem with rehashing, The same franchise recycles stuff all the time. And I think as long as it works, which it did here in my opinion, it is fine.

So how many of you have actually watched the original and liked it (or at least a bit/more)?

[NeoKING]

So how many of you have actually watched the original and liked it (or at least a bit/more)?

I loved it. An interesting take on the series after Z. GT came off to me as a not-so-tense or extreme side story to the Dragon Ball story to me. And, honestly, it works, because after everything the Z fighters have been through in the ten years before Z, it makes sense why GT has the atmosphere it does. There's no real sense of danger - just "Okay, things are getting bad, but when there's a will there's a way, we've been through this before." Look at Goku's first bout against Baby Vegeta. Even when he's on the ropes, he's smiling, because he knows that somehow some way, Baby's going to lose the war.

[Cetra]

For me the feeling Dragon Ball GT brings with it is "this is really Dragon Ball in the future" and I don't know but except some small details I think even Battle of Gods fits in.

Nice to see that there is actually a handful of people who liked it and also watched the original to get to experience its actual atmosphere.

[fadeddreams5]

Next big criticism: "No one ever does anything (win) but Goku."

Goku takes down all the bad guys. GT means Goku Time. Funny, because I thought the clock was stuck on Goku Time since Episode 1 of Dragon Ball. That darn Goku, how dare he hog the spotlight from Bulma and not have her take down that creature from the first episode. Obviously Pu'ar was supposed to take down the Red Ribbon Army but that dog'garn Toriyama seems to have this raging hard-on for the Saiyuki rip-off. Raditz is Goku's brother? C'mon, he's obviously supposed to be Yajirobe's. How people have not realized that Goku is the star of this show until GT baffles me, actually. But wait, Gohan beat Cell! Yeah, because he was the star of that saga. It was now Gohan's turn to pick up the mantle. But then we go back to Goku beating Boo. He also fought Beerus and became the Super Saiyan God. There that Toriyama goes again; Zygote Pan was supposed to be the God!

The real criticism is that the show focuses solely on him; there's more emphasis on Goku than anyone else. This was not the case in DBZ. In the Saiyan saga, Goku was dead, and everyone was training for the saiyans, so there was a balance here. In the Namek saga, Goku was training, and the emphasis was on Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta. In the Android saga, Goku was in bed for the most part, and many characters got a time to shine. In the Buu arc, Goku was dead again, and other characters once again got a chance to lead the stage... until they decided to bring Goku back, but that's another story.

In GT, Goku gets to go on the adventure... with two characters he honestly has no chemistry with. In the Bebi saga, everyone is possessed so it is up to Goku to train and save the day on his own while Pan just reacts to shit. Uub got a pitiful moment of glory they just HAD to squeeze in there though. In the Super 17 arc, everyone gets clocked by the worst villain in this series' history, and only Goku (in SSJ form no less) can stop this guy. In the Shadow Dragon arc, only Goku fights them all. The emphasis was Goku, with Pan as the side kick nobody asked for...

By GT, everyone has gotten older and is living relatively normal lives. The only one excited for adventure was literally Goku and Pan. Trunks was dragged along for the ride.

That in itself is one of GT's flaws. It didn't need to take place so far into the future. EoZ period would have sufficed.

I don't know why so much people think it would've been a great idea that the other fighters fought the Evil Dragons. The Z-fighters at their primes couldn't even beat Cell Juniors.

That's not a valid argument. Either nerf the dragons so other characters can fight them, or buff the characters through training. In the end, what people want is character development and story. Good writing will make for good, likeable characters, regardless of how weak they are, as well as enjoyable stories. And that, imo, is GT's main flaw. A lot of pro-GT fans tend to ask, "why would you want them to emphasize on the other characters? They're old and boring!" But that right there is both GT and EoZ's main flaw that nobody seems to see! The characters simply weren't well-written. Pan, Uub, Bra, Goten, Trunks, and Gohan are awful, awful, awful! Krillin is a dull old man. The other humans are non-existant (besides Bulma), and Piccolo... just died... for some stupid contrived reason (the entirety of the blackstar balls was contrived, imo). The villains were as generic as you can get. The series simply suffered from a lack of heart and poor writing. DB(Z) isn't Shakespeare, but Toriyama gave it a charm that you see in very few series, and it's because of how he plays with his characters and world. If anything, maybe even he sees the error of EoZ, which is why he doesn't want to revisit that time period.

[ABED]

This was not the case in DBZ.

But that doesn't necessarily mean the show was the better for it. Goku was the focus of DB, and I think that's the best show of the three. Not necessarily because of that, but that proves my point. In Z, I like the Saiyan arc a lot, but while Goku was dead, he wasn't just in a pine box, he was training. In the Freeza arc he's also training, but the plot is progressing without him. I think Goku being on Namek the whole time is probably a better idea than just having Goku come in to save the day, especially since the final confrontation will come down to him and Freeza.

Piccolo... just died... for some stupid contrived reason

He died so the Black star DBs wouldn't be used again. How's that contrived, unless you're referring to the BSDBs themselves.

The villains were as generic as you can get. The series simply suffered from a lack of heart

Baby stood out, and I liked him way more than Buu. GT has flaws, but lack of heart isn't one of them. Regarding your point that Pan is a sidekick no one asked for, perhaps I'm being overly literal, but who cares if they asked or didn't? Did anyone ask for any character or DB to begin with? Telling a story shouldn't come down to what the fans asked for, but what is best for the story.

[FindKenshi]

I hated GT simply because when i was a young impressionable DB fan back in the 90's / early 2000's, everyone on the Internet hated GT and bashed it constantly. Therefore when I watched it for myself in the crappy Super 5 Fansubs, I looked for all the stuff to hate about it. Basically I was brainwashed / a sheep following the masses, etc.

[voltlunok]

That he is far to honorable and proud to sully himself with such a device

Yet not too honorable to let Babidi try and take him over? Vegeta has grown up, so I think he's willing to do what's necessary to reach the level of power he desires, especially if his home and family is at risk.

Pretty much. I just see it as Vegeta will do anything to get a leg up on Goku. He has more pride then honor and that pride will override his honor, making him take shortcuts if need be.

GT criticism is 99% hypocrisy, really.

Pretty much. a lot of the time I hear criticism of GT and think 'But DBZ did that too...' Like I said before, I hear people talk about how Vegeta is so honorable that he would never use a machine to gain power, then they turn around and explain how it's totally in character for Vegeta to constantly be training in the gravity machine.

GT is actually alright (I actually really like it, original and dub. It was fun!), it doesn't live up to Z but in all honesty...I don't think it could. I don't think anything labeled a sequel to DBZ coming out right after it ended could live up to Z. It's just fandom nature I guess.

But I always pose this question to people...If DBGT aired exactly how it did but had Toriyama tied to it, what would your opinion be of it? Would you see it as good? Or would it still be a mixed bag?

[Rocketman]

The difference between DB/Z and GT is that GT hates the rest of the cast. DB has the Budokais and the vast majority of Z is other character driving the plot, but GT is a long, extended shit on anybody not Goku (or Pan, to a much lesser extent, I guess).

Gohan? They quietly strip away his Mystic form, then have base Goku beat SS Gohan down effortlessly.

Gotenks? Mentioned once so ~Goku~ can say he's useless, then never again even when Fusion would've helped.

Vegeta? One scene stands out, when he gets a line like "I will protect the Earth!", then immediately gets crushed and wakes up looking up at Goku's crotch. He does get SS4... at the exact moment it gets outclassed... then doesn't keep his tail.

Uub? Was he even in GT?

[Eire]

In the first episode... and final I think.