Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
ZazamPow wrote:
You say that like Gohan is the main character.
ZazamPow wrote:
By large portion you mean like, 10 chapters between the Cell Games and Buu's appearance? Because Goku was certainly the main character during the entirety of the Saiyans and Freeza, he was certainly the main character during Cell until the plot twist at the end where he let Gohan fight, and then he once again became the main character against Buu. That certainly doesn't sound like a large portion. I think you're being pretty unreasonable, Gohan had plenty shine in each arc since his first appearance, he did everything he possibly could have short of defeat the main antagonist on his own, which he ended up doing with Cell. Just because he always ends up getting defeated doesn't mean Toriyama hates him, that kinda needs to happen if he isn't going to be the winner in the end.
I feel as though this forum is destined to have this same argument pop up for eternity.
Yes, it's pretty clear that Goku was the protagonist for the first half of the story (up to the Piccolo arc) BUT as soon as Gohan is born and introduced there is a very noticeable shift in focus that starts to take place as the story progresses. This shift isn't always outwardly displayed and, admittedly, up until the Cell games both characters maintain a pretty even share of the spotlight but even so it's very clear when you analyse and pay attention to the events that Gohan is being built up while Goku was slowly being pushed aside in favor of him. This was only reversed during the Buu arc when Toriyama decided to pull the plug on Gohan's development and shoehorn Goku back in to save the day. The story is littered with evidence in favour of Gohan being the covert protagonist from the Saiyan arc onwards but people ignore that and just pay attention to the Goku fights (completely ignoring the amount of time Goku spent MIA prior to those fights). I think somewhere during the Buu arc Toriyama realized he'd fucked up with Gohan and scrapped whatever plans he had for him (either that or the editors demanded Goku back). There's no reason why he would develop Gohan that much only to leave his story arc so unresolved and incomplete during the remainder of the story.
The recent treatment of Gohan from GT onwards has all been manufactured as a result of the manga's ending IMO. They seem to be backtracking to try and hide the gaping flaws Toriyama left in the manga and, at the same time, make it appear that Gohan was never of any importance. It's really counterproductive in my view since they could have taken the opportunity to fix the damage done to the character themselves. There was money to be made in giving people what they wanted and plenty of people after Z's conclusion still wanted Gohan to succeed yet they instead decided to constantly shit on him. I can almost guarantee you he'll be used as fodder in the coming films, taking away his ultimate form was just the beginning.
I don't really understand why so many people get upset about Gohan, like they're insulting his character or something. The guy isn't incompetent. He's right behind Goku and Vegeta in the Buu arc (even surpassing them at one point). They make it clear during the fight with Dabura that it's not just that he isn't as strong or anything... he's so out of practice from fighting that he forgot some basic things that made that fight drag on and go horribly. It's not that he isn't powerful or on the level with the others it's that he just isn't as sharp as he was before as a kid.
Which makes a lot of sense.
1.) He only wanted to live up to Piccolo and Goku as a kid and be like them. So he pushed himself to make them proud. He is grown up now and his own man, he doesn't need to do that.
2.) Goku isn't dead. Gohan has faith that his dad can do just about anything, so he probably isn't too worried. Gohan always knew his dad could do just about anything... like when he recalls Goku walking right up to Freeza without any fear.
3. After Goku died and his brother was born, he probably DID train some. But he probably never pushed himself as hard as Goku would have pushed him. It was because Goku was there with him that he got as good as he was.
It's like, when I was a kid my dad loved to fish and I went fishing with him all the time. I hated fishing, but I did it because my dad did and I wanted him to be proud and have something for us to bond over. I wanted to be like my dad, my hero. Now that I'm older, I don't fish anymore... but I still know how to fish. I just might forget a few things about how to launch a boat into the water or what lures to use or something. I'll probably never be the fisherman my dad was because it's not my passion though.
Horrible comparison I know, lol... but what I'm trying to say is... Gohan is actually being more true to himself as an adult then he was as a kid. He was molded largely by his father as a kid but he is NOT his father and that's okay.
So why does everyone act like his character has to take the place of Goku? That's not what his character is or ever was. Even when he blew Cell away.
He doesn't have to take Goku's place (now, anyway. I think the Buu arc would've been better if Goku never came back to life).
But they don't have to rip away his rage boosts to give to Vegeta, and his best-in-base fighting mode to give to Goku, and then trash him instantly whenever a fight starts.
Rocketman wrote:He doesn't have to take Goku's place (now, anyway. I think the Buu arc would've been better if Goku never came back to life).
But they don't have to rip away his rage boosts to give to Vegeta, and his best-in-base fighting mode to give to Goku.
Well, his rage boosts were pretty much phased out already so it doesn't really matter. That hasn't been a thing since the Cell arc and that was now like what 1993? I agree that his "mystic" form being replaced by SSJ seems odd but I don't think they're "giving it to Goku." There is actually no explanation for that so we can't assume he can't still do that or not or what effect SSJ has on him versus that. I mean he technically was mystic in BOG (even if they forgot about his power originally). Even if he still had it, it was his max potential so it probably wouldn't make much more of a difference.
Goku/Vegeta were always bound to surpass Gohan at some point. Those guys never stop trying to be stronger. The old Kai had a point about transformations being a waste... it's obviously not a philosophy only he follows. So it makes sense that they may eventually try that too.
I think I get what everyone is really upset about though. They want Gohan to be more of a main character again and they're upset he is falling into the background like the humans did at some point. But that's not really true because he is one of the main characters fighting in this new movie. Besides, in almost all of DBZ he never did anything much against the bad guys. He was usually weak. The only thing that gave him the edge was his "hidden power" thing. But if he was still suddenly showing hidden powers that rise when he gets mad at like 30 it wouldn't quite be the same thing ya know?
Get the fuck out Gohan fans, Vegeta's running this show now
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
ZazamPow wrote:
You say that like Gohan is the main character.
ZazamPow wrote:
By large portion you mean like, 10 chapters between the Cell Games and Buu's appearance? Because Goku was certainly the main character during the entirety of the Saiyans and Freeza, he was certainly the main character during Cell until the plot twist at the end where he let Gohan fight, and then he once again became the main character against Buu. That certainly doesn't sound like a large portion. I think you're being pretty unreasonable, Gohan had plenty shine in each arc since his first appearance, he did everything he possibly could have short of defeat the main antagonist on his own, which he ended up doing with Cell. Just because he always ends up getting defeated doesn't mean Toriyama hates him, that kinda needs to happen if he isn't going to be the winner in the end.
I feel as though this forum is destined to have this same argument pop up for eternity.
Yes, it's pretty clear that Goku was the protagonist for the first half of the story (up to the Piccolo arc) BUT as soon as Gohan is born and introduced there is a very noticeable shift in focus that starts to take place as the story progresses. This shift isn't always outwardly displayed and, admittedly, up until the Cell games both characters maintain a pretty even share of the spotlight but even so it's very clear when you analyse and pay attention to the events that Gohan is being built up while Goku was slowly being pushed aside in favor of him. This was only reversed during the Buu arc when Toriyama decided to pull the plug on Gohan's development and shoehorn Goku back in to save the day. The story is littered with evidence in favour of Gohan being the covert protagonist from the Saiyan arc onwards but people ignore that and just pay attention to the Goku fights (completely ignoring the amount of time Goku spent MIA prior to those fights). I think somewhere during the Buu arc Toriyama realized he'd fucked up with Gohan and scrapped whatever plans he had for him (either that or the editors demanded Goku back). There's no reason why he would develop Gohan that much only to leave his story arc so unresolved and incomplete during the remainder of the story.
The recent treatment of Gohan from GT onwards has all been manufactured as a result of the manga's ending IMO. They seem to be backtracking to try and hide the gaping flaws Toriyama left in the manga and, at the same time, make it appear that Gohan was never of any importance. It's really counterproductive in my view since they could have taken the opportunity to fix the damage done to the character themselves. There was money to be made in giving people what they wanted and plenty of people after Z's conclusion still wanted Gohan to succeed yet they instead decided to constantly shit on him. I can almost guarantee you he'll be used as fodder in the coming films, taking away his ultimate form was just the beginning.
But you forgot screen time doesn't mean anything...it's how many people you beat up that shows your status as a character. That's apparently the logic of some people here. Doesn't matter how many pages or how many times your on screen, just how many people you beat up.
Though honestly I guess these are the same people who were gleeful about Movie 3's treatment of the human characters, since it's pretty much the same as the Non Goku's. Guess people should really shut up about Piccolo too, and Oob, and the prodigy children, and Vegeta early on, etc.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Japanese love mental break downs...they love that there characters cry and are scared and cant move and shit like that ..Gohan was exactly that from the beginning, i could not stand him. as he was a baby i am like ok...u could say that but it stayed like that till the end of cell...toriyama changed that but it felt so out of character in my opinion cause he is and was a cry baby all the time. Gohan sucks thats what he is ..so he is not Disappointing at all for me. he is just Gohan ...
wondering why goku isnt like
..we never saw goku scared ...yes concerned ...but not afraid as much as Gohan
Lol wow... Total lack of empathy from the post above but I guess I'm foolish for expecting more from the majority of Dragonball fans.
Just keep in mind Gohan was 4 at the time of Raditz, about 5(?) on Namek and iirc was 9 or 10 during the Cell games. When you take his age into account it's understandable why he would cry or not know what to do. Any real kid around that age (or even older) would shit themselves at the thought of having to face a gun/knife wielding stranger let alone an alien or cyborg capable of blowing up a planet.
Despite the world of Dragonball being a pretty wacky place the fights Gohan experienced at such a young age would be pretty traumatic for anyone and would leave most normal people mentally scarred for life. It's a miracle he turned out as normal as he did in the Buu arc.
NitroEX wrote:Lol wow... Total lack of empathy from the post above but I guess I'm foolish for expecting more from the majority of Dragonball fans.
Just keep in mind Gohan was 4 at the time of Raditz, about 5(?) on Namek and iirc was 9 or 10 during the Cell games. When you take his age into account it's understandable why he would cry or not know what to do. Any real kid around that age (or even older) would shit themselves at the thought of having to face a gun/knife wielding stranger let alone an alien or cyborg capable of blowing up a planet.
Despite the world of Dragonball being a pretty wacky place the fights Gohan experienced at such a young age would be pretty traumatic for anyone and would leave most normal people mentally scarred for life. It's a miracle he turned out as normal as he did in the Buu arc.
Goku was not as scared as him as kid...
i did not like gohan at all and dont understand why people do
Well firstly Goku was around 12 or 13 when Dragonball began, Gohan was younger than him even during the Cell games. Secondly it's pretty obvious that Goku was a special case since he was a boy who lived in the woods (on his own no less) for most of his life. On top of all that he was a pureblooded Saiyan who could probably rely on his instincts to naturally become a fighter, Gohan was half human and clearly inherited a lot of human traits (some of which weren't helpful in battle).
Both characters might have been children but their upbringing produced vastly different people in the end. Obviously they're not going to perform the same way under intense situations.
NitroEX wrote:Lol wow... Total lack of empathy from the post above but I guess I'm foolish for expecting more from the majority of Dragonball fans.
Just keep in mind Gohan was 4 at the time of Raditz, about 5(?) on Namek and iirc was 9 or 10 during the Cell games. When you take his age into account it's understandable why he would cry or not know what to do. Any real kid around that age (or even older) would shit themselves at the thought of having to face a gun/knife wielding stranger let alone an alien or cyborg capable of blowing up a planet.
Despite the world of Dragonball being a pretty wacky place the fights Gohan experienced at such a young age would be pretty traumatic for anyone and would leave most normal people mentally scarred for life. It's a miracle he turned out as normal as he did in the Buu arc.
Goku was not as scared as him as kid...
I did not like gohan at all and dont understand why people do
Yea but Gohan was so sheltered due to Chi Chi not allowing him to be into martial arts and burying him in his studies. It's not Gohans fault and if it wasn't for Piccolo he wouldn't of made such a dramatic transformation into the warrior he has become now. Give credit where credit is due. Goku wasn't brought up that way so it's understandable as to why he's not as fearful.
tx3 wrote:
Goku was not as scared as him as kid...
i did not like gohan at all and dont understand why people do
Keep in mind that we first meet Goku when he's twelve, whereas Gohan is four. By twelve, Gohan had already defeated Cell. Not only that, but Goku essentially raised himself after Grandpa Gohan died whereas Gohan lived with two parents. And what about their first real enemies? A super powerful, genocidal alien vs. a bear with a sword? Radditz was stronger than Gohan, but Goku was way stronger than Bear With Sword. (At least, I think it was a bear with sword.) Gohan had a lot more reason to be scared than little Goku.
All these Gohan threads may as well just be merged into one singular thread where we can all vent our frustrations over Toriyama and his writing of the character, I swear they have been popping up all over the shop these days.
tx3 wrote:
Goku was not as scared as him as kid...
i did not like gohan at all and dont understand why people do
Keep in mind that we first meet Goku when he's twelve, whereas Gohan is four. By twelve, Gohan had already defeated Cell. Not only that, but Goku essentially raised himself after Grandpa Gohan died whereas Gohan lived with two parents. And what about their first real enemies? A super powerful, genocidal alien vs. a bear with a sword? Radditz was stronger than Gohan, but Goku was way stronger than Bear With Sword. (At least, I think it was a bear with sword.) Gohan had a lot more reason to be scared than little Goku.
so gohan is a spoiled kid? ...and goku had to fight his whole life makes gohan even more unsympathetic
Kid goku had to fight strong enemys too like picoole and never bitched out like gohan.
Gohan is bitch made ..while Goku is a Hero.
Gohan hates to fight ...what really?
Goten love to fight ...real worthy of being Gokus son.
bleed0range wrote:But if he was still suddenly showing hidden powers that rise when he gets mad at like 30 it wouldn't quite be the same thing ya know?
But it's ok for Vegeta to suddenly show that at age 50 or so?
tx3 wrote:
so gohan is a spoiled kid? ...and goku had to fight his whole life makes gohan even more unsympathetic
Kid goku had to fight strong enemys too like picoole and never bitched out like gohan.
Gohan is bitch made ..while Goku is a Hero.
Gohan hates to fight ...what really?
Goten love to fight ...real worthy of being Gokus son.
case closed
Gohan is an ordinary kid. (Aside from his special powers, that is.) Goku is the special one, a wild child. Plus, Goku was 16 when he fought Piccolo, and 19 when the fight with Ma Junior (the Piccolo from Z) happened. By the time Gohan was 16, his defeat of Cell was several years in the past.
Can you really say that Goten loves to fight? It seems to me that Goten likes doing what Trunks does, and since Trunks loves to fight, so does Goten. Plus, Chi Chi is willing to accept Goten's fighting a lot more than Gohan's. And Goten doesn't like fighting by the end of Z. Both Goku and Vegeta complain that their sons, Goten and Trunks, would rather chase girls than train.
I do wish that Gohan had continued to train after the Cell Games, but not because fighters are better than scholars. It just would have been nice to make him a bit more well rounded. Mental health is important, but so is physical, and they can work together nicely.
tx3 wrote:
so gohan is a spoiled kid? ...and goku had to fight his whole life makes gohan even more unsympathetic
Kid goku had to fight strong enemys too like picoole and never bitched out like gohan.
Gohan is bitch made ..while Goku is a Hero.
Gohan hates to fight ...what really?
Goten love to fight ...real worthy of being Gokus son.
case closed
Gohan is an ordinary kid. (Aside from his special powers, that is.) Goku is the special one, a wild child. Plus, Goku was 16 when he fought Piccolo, and 19 when the fight with Ma Junior (the Piccolo from Z) happened. By the time Gohan was 16, his defeat of Cell was several years in the past.
Can you really say that Goten loves to fight? It seems to me that Goten likes doing what Trunks does, and since Trunks loves to fight, so does Goten. Plus, Chi Chi is willing to accept Goten's fighting a lot more than Gohan's. And Goten doesn't like fighting by the end of Z. Both Goku and Vegeta complain that their sons, Goten and Trunks, would rather chase girls than train.
I do wish that Gohan had continued to train after the Cell Games, but not because fighters are better than scholars. It just would have been nice to make him a bit more well rounded. Mental health is important, but so is physical, and they can work together nicely.
I'm pretty sure Trunks didn't love fighting that way either and it was mostly cuz of Vegeta.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
