Is Goku really not a superman in anyway?

[theherodjl]

It's also possible that when Goku hit his head as a baby it did more than just change his attitude but also his cognitive skills, he may simply not be aware of danger to the world until it finally appears before him.

[rereboy]

Laugh it up fuzzball.

In all seriousness, Goku tries to leave because he's gotten the revenge he needed and he no longer considers Freeza a threat. After Freeza is cut in half Goku almost leaves him to die, but doesn't not because he really wants to fight but out of mercy, hence why you see him struggle.

You are also disregarding the parts where he says things like "It's pointless to kill someone as spineless as you are... I'm giving you a little of my power. You'll probably be able to move a little bit now. Do whatever you wish after this." Telling Freeza to train was more of an afterthought.

I'm not disregarding anything. I'm not claiming that Goku wanting a fight was not a factor in letting Freeza go, even though he even suggests that he trains, you are the one apparently doing that. I don't deny that Goku has mercy and that plays a role when he spares an opponent, but a major reason for him to do that has been consistently the fact that he wants to fight and that is present even in Freeza's case, even though not as clearly or predominantly as in other cases. You are thinking too simplistically thinking there can only be one reason. Even in my first post I talked about priorities, making it clear that Goku has several priorities and reasons for acting like he does but obviously the reasons relevant for this topic are his selfish reasons because that's a major difference from Superman and that's what I mentioned and focused on.

It's fine if you say that mercy was the most important thing in letting Freeza go but you are coming across as arguing that it was the only relevant thing.

Also, fuzzball? Because I used a smiley... Instead of understanding the point I was making with that sentence... Right...

Are you referring to RF Freeza?

Because seeing as how you mentioned Freeza before the androids, I too interpreted it as you saying Goku let Freeza go in the Namek arc because he wanted to fight him again, when the intention was to clearly show Goku's kindness.

Same answer as above.

I think people often try their hardest to make sure Goku and Superman are seen as completely different characters, when the similarities between them are bigger than the differences. Sure, Goku puts a good fight first and is selfish at times, but when that fight puts the Earth in danger, saving the Earth/his friends switches to his primary objective.

Even Lex Luthor has been portrayed as a guy that will do everything he can to protect the Earth from out of world threats, siding with superheroes on matters like that. That doesn't make him similar to Superman.

Goku developed into a modern hero ever since his speech in the Namek arc about avenging the Saiyans and the Nameks. He still has his characteristics that sets him apart from Superman and such, and he still puts the Earth in danger for a good fight sometimes, but compare the part 1 + Saiyan arc Goku who killed weak opponents and let the strong ones live so that he can fight them later, compare that Goku to the Namek arc Goku who let weak opponents who posed no challenge live out of the kindness of his heart (the Ginyus and Freeza), and then develops into someone who kills (or tries to) even the strong evil beings who could give him a good fight in the future (Cell, Dabra, Boo).

Batman always spares his opponents. That doesn't make him similar to Superman. Basically what you are saying is that Goku is similar to Superman because, like Superman, he is on the good side of the spectrum, instead of the evil side. Well, that's one very broad similarity, and following that line of thought, basically anyone who isn't a villain is similar to Superman.

Hell, to add on to that point, compare Goku's first sacrifice to his second. Who does he sacrifice himself for in the Saiyan arc? Gohan. Who des he sacrifice himself for in the Cell arc? He specifically mentions "Earth". If he didn't turn into a modern hero after the Namek arc speech, he definitely did after his second sacrifice. After the Cell arc, he didn't selfishly put the Earth in danger anymore, only when he refused to kill Boo so that the kids would have a chance, but that was more about him looking after the future of Earth, rather than his selfishness putting the Earth in danger.

Even someone who isn't good would probably sacrifice himself to save the planet because, if he didn't, he would die anyway and, that way, some things he cared about, like his family or his legacy, would be saved. It doesn't take much to realize that it's the only logical course of action even for someone who isn't good.

[Doctor.]

Batman always spares his opponents. That doesn't make him similar to Superman. Basically what you are saying is that Goku is similar to Superman because, like Superman, he is on the good side of the spectrum, instead of the evil side. Well, that's one very broad similarity, and following that line of thought, basically anyone who isn't a villain is similar to Superman.

I think you missed the part where Goku takes it upon himself to avenge the people he shouldn't give two shits about.

It was obvious I was comparing Goku and Superman in their role as heroes, not in terms of personality and whatnot. Superman and Batman can be similar heroes to an extent, their ideals are mostly the same, even if the way they go about it is different. That's why I kept saying "Modern hero" in my post rather than just Superman.

Even someone who isn't good would probably sacrifice himself to save the planet because, if he didn't, he would die anyway and, that way, some things he cared about, like his family or his legacy, would be saved. It doesn't take much to realize that it's the only logical course of action even for someone who isn't good.

It's not logical if you don't have the courage to do so. Nevertheless, that wasn't really the point. The point was that he sacrificed himself for Gohan and for Gohan alone in the Saiyan arc, but actually says that he'll sacrifice himself for the Earth in the Cell arc. He doesn't say "this is the only way I can save you guys" like you'd expect Goku to say, he says "the Earth". He was thinking in a much bigger perspective.

[rereboy]

I think you missed the part where Goku takes it upon himself to avenge the people he shouldn't give two shits about.

You mean like basically every character that is good and can do something about it? Like I said, pretty broad similarity.

It was obvious I was comparing Goku and Superman in their role as heroes, not in terms of personality and whatnot. Superman and Batman can be similar heroes to an extent, their ideals are mostly the same, even if the way they go about it is different. That's why I kept saying "Modern hero" in my post rather than just Superman.

The way you were comparing them, any character that is good and exists in an action story would be as comparable as Goku. Besides, their roles also involve their intentions and personalities, which is actually what this topic is about, the differences between them in those aspects.

Goku is definitely a hero but even guys like Deadpool, Punisher, Wolverine, Batman and so on are technically heroes (even if they fit the sub-genre of anti-hero), especially with the criteria you mentioned.

It's not logical if you don't have the courage to do so. Nevertheless, that wasn't really the point. The point was that he sacrificed himself for Gohan and for Gohan alone in the Saiyan arc, but actually says that he'll sacrifice himself for the Earth in the Cell arc. He doesn't say "this is the only way I can save you guys" like you'd expect Goku to say, he says "the Earth". He was thinking in a much bigger perspective.

Courage has nothing to do with what's logical. Nor does being good or evil have anything to do with courage. If a person who isn't good lacked the courage to sacrifice himself in that situation, that would be purely because he is more of a coward than brave, not because it wouldn't be logical or because he is good or because he is evil. There are plenty of villains who are everything but cowards, and Goku has always had courage.

And like I pointed out, even a person who isn't good would be able to think in a bigger perspective and sacrifice himself for Earth. I fail to see how that implies how good Goku is, when even someone who isn't good but has sufficient courage and intelligence to understand that its the only real logical choice to preserve anything at all, would do it. Not to mention that Goku sacrificed himself earlier just for Gohan because that was what was at stake at that moment. Heck, even chapter 1 Goku would sacrifice himself to save the world if that's what was at stake at the moment.

[Doctor.]

You mean like basically every character that is good and can do something about it? Like I said, pretty broad similarity.

Someone who is good and had the power in Goku's shoes would fight Freeza to avenge the Namekians. They wouldn't fight Freeza to avenge a people they dislike, the Saiyans. I'm not sure why you keep saying "everyone that is good" and equating that to a hero status. I'm good, you're good, most human beings are good, but we're no heroes, Goku is. There's a difference between "good" people and heroes, and it's not just the power.

The way you were comparing them, any character that is good and exists in an action story would be as comparable as Goku. Besides, their roles also involve their intentions and personalities, which is actually what this topic is about, the differences between them in those aspects.

Goku is definitely a hero but even guys like Deadpool, Punisher, Wolverine, Batman and so on are technically heroes (even if they fit the sub-genre of anti-hero), especially with the criteria you mentioned.

I said modern hero, so they possibly fit into that criteria. A modern hero, to me, is someone who knows the value of human life and usually puts the needs of others above his own. Contrary to the more classic definition of a hero, someone with great power who shows his bravery in the face of adversity.

I'd use the first definition to describe Namek arc and beyond Goku. I'd use the second to describe part 1 and Saiyan arc Goku.

Courage has nothing to do with what's logical. Nor does being good or evil have anything to do with courage. If a person who isn't good lacked the courage to sacrifice himself in that situation, that would be purely because he is more of a coward than brave, not because it wouldn't be logical or because he is good or because he is evil. There are plenty of villains who are everything but cowards, and Goku has always had courage.

Sure it does. Someone's bravery, or lack thereof, will influence their thoughts. Sacrificing oneself could be the most logical option to take, but if one lacks courage to do so, they'll try to come up with excuses as to why it's not a good idea and try to pat themselves in the back.

And like I pointed out, even a person who isn't good would be able to think in a bigger perspective and sacrifice himself for Earth. I fail to see how that implies how good Goku is, when even someone who isn't good but has sufficient courage and intelligence to understand that its the only real logical choice to preserve anything at all, would do it. Not to mention that Goku sacrificed himself earlier just for Gohan because that was what was at stake at that moment. Heck, even chapter 1 Goku would sacrifice himself to save the world if that's what was at stake at the moment.

I disagree. Chapter one Goku, are you serious? The guy who literally knows nothing about the planet he's on, who probably doesn't even know what a planet is? The guy who has only met one person in his life? If that Goku was confronted with a decision, die or doom the Earth, he would either a) let Earth be destroyed because he doesn't have any reason to care, 2) try to defeat the bad guy because he doesn't want his home (and consequently his "grandfather", the 4 star dragon ball) destroyed or 3) sacrifice himself for Bulma, and only Bulma.

That Goku would definitely not sacrifice himself for the Earth.

[rereboy]

Someone who is good and had the power in Goku's shoes would fight Freeza to avenge the Namekians. They wouldn't fight Freeza to avenge a people they dislike, the Saiyans. I'm not sure why you keep saying "everyone that is good" and equating that to a hero status. I'm good, you're good, most human beings are good, but we're no heroes, Goku is. There's a difference between "good" people and heroes, and it's not just the power.

You stated that there are plenty of similarities between Goku and Superman, but the similarities you point out are just broad similarities that are basically shared between any character that is good and heroic in a action story. You were trying to demonstrate how similar they are but all you did was provide arguments for them both falling into the category of heroes and being good. I merely pointed out how broad that is and how little significance it has because of how just broad it is. That's all. I mean, for them not to fall both inside that category, one of them would have to be bad (or truly neutral) or not heroic at all, which is something that no one is suggesting.

I said modern hero, so they possibly fit into that criteria. A modern hero, to me, is someone who knows the value of human life and usually puts the needs of others above his own. Contrary to the more classic definition of a hero, someone with great power who shows his bravery in the face of adversity.

I'd use the first definition to describe Namek arc and beyond Goku. I'd use the second to describe part 1 and Saiyan arc Goku.

Like I said, you are just basically saying that their similarities are being good and being a hero/heroic.

Sure it does. Someone's bravery, or lack thereof, will influence their thoughts. Sacrificing oneself could be the most logical option to take, but if one lacks courage to do so, they'll try to come up with excuses as to why it's not a good idea and try to pat themselves in the back.

And? How does that make one person more evil? Or more good? Or makes the action less logical? It doesn't. All it does is demonstrate that the guy isn't brave enough to do it because he is too scared.

I disagree. Chapter one Goku, are you serious? The guy who literally knows nothing about the planet he's on, who probably doesn't even know what a planet is? The guy who has only met one person in his life? If that Goku was confronted with a decision, die or doom the Earth, he would either a) let Earth be destroyed because he doesn't have any reason to care, 2) try to defeat the bad guy because he doesn't want his home (and consequently his "grandfather", the 4 star dragon ball) destroyed or 3) sacrifice himself for Bulma, and only Bulma.

That Goku would definitely not sacrifice himself for the Earth.

Chapter 1 Goku is the guy who picked up a random talking turtle on his back and walked all the way to the sea just because he felt he should do it to help the turtle, even abandoning the only person he knew to do it. And he also didn't lack courage. So, obviously, if a giant demon appeared in front of him and started destroying the world and someone said to Goku that he wouldn't stop until everything was destroyed and the only way to defeat him would be for someone to enter the demon's mouth and destroy him from within, even though the resulting explosion would kill the one who did it, I have no doubt that he would do it.

[Doctor.]

You stated that there are plenty of similarities between Goku and Superman, but the similarities you point out are just broad similarities that are basically shared between any character that is good and heroic in a action story. You were trying to demonstrate how similar they are but all you did was provide arguments for them both falling into the category of heroes and being good. I merely pointed out how broad that is and how little significance it has because of how just broad it is. That's all. I mean, for them not to fall both inside that category, one of them would have to be bad (or truly neutral) or not heroic at all, which is something that no one is suggesting.

I stated there are more similarities than differences.

The OP was putting Goku's selfishness is question, saying that he hasn't been portrayed as selfishly as people think. I merely added on to his point, that his selfishness isn't such a major characteristic of his personality as some people make it out to be and, as such, he's closer to Superman as a result. People were suggesting that Goku puts a good fight above everything, and that's what sets him apart from Superman, and I disagreed, saying that after a certain point in the series he puts the Earth's safety above a good fight.

The title of the thread is also "Is Goku really not a Superman in any way?".

And? How does that make one person more evil? Or more good? Or makes the action less logical? It doesn't. All it does is demonstrate that the guy isn't brave enough to do it because he is too scared.

From a neutral perspective, it makes no difference. It makes a difference in that character's perspective.

Chapter 1 Goku is the guy who picked up a random talking turtle on his back and walked all the way to the sea just because he felt he should do it to help the turtle, even abandoning the only person he knew to do it. And he also didn't lack courage. So, obviously, if a giant demon appeared in front of him and started destroying the world and someone said to Goku that the only way to defeat him would be for someone to enter the demon's mouth and destroy him from within, even though the resulting explosion would kill the one who did it, I have no doubt that he would do it.

That's chapter 3 Goku, I thought you were referring to Goku before he met Bulma or just right after he met her, but it doesn't really matter. If it's Goku after meeting Umigame and such, then the outcome would still be the same as the one I proposed. He would sacrifice himself for the people he knows, even if he saves the Earth as a result.

[rereboy]

I stated there are more similarities than differences.

The OP was putting Goku's selfishness is question, saying that he hasn't been portrayed as selfishly as people think. I merely added on to his point, that his selfishness isn't such a major characteristic of his personality as some people make it out to be and, as such, he's closer to Superman as a result. People were suggesting that Goku puts a good fight above everything, and that's what sets him apart from Superman, and I disagreed, saying that after a certain point in the series he puts the Earth's safety above a good fight.

That would only make Goku "better" in that regard, even if we agree with your point. His "innocent selfishness" didn't suddenly stop being a part of his character. Gohan is much more like Superman than Goku is at the end of the manga, since Gohan actually went out of his way to help ordinary people with his power, and the difference is precisely that "innocent selfishness" of Goku. That characteristic is at the core of his character. But sure, I can agree with you if you say that that characteristic of his lost some of its predominance in Goku's actions towards the end of the manga, even though Super and the new movies seem to make that characteristic of his as predominant as it ever was.

From a neutral perspective, it makes no difference. It makes a difference in that character's perspective.

I have no idea what you are trying to argue but, anyway, my point was clear enough.

That's chapter 3 Goku, I thought you were referring to Goku before he met Bulma or just right after he met her, but it doesn't really matter. If it's Goku after meeting Umigame and such, then the outcome would still be the same as the one I proposed. He would sacrifice himself for the people he knows, even if he saves the Earth as a result.

Are you really suggesting that Goku actually changed significantly (personality wise) from chapter 1 to chapter 3...? Couldn't disagree more.

[Doctor.]

That would only make Goku "better" in that regard, even if we agree with your point. His "innocent selfishness" didn't suddenly stop being a part of his character. Gohan is much more like Superman than Goku is at the end of the manga, since Gohan actually went out of his way to help ordinary people with his power, and the difference is precisely that "innocent selfishness" of Goku.

I think he lost a great part of his innocence in that regard.

That "purity" of "wanting to become stronger" that Toriyama talked about is still there, but he has become, as a character, much more aware of the consequences his actions have for everyone else. That was my point, maybe I should have worded it better.

Are you really suggesting that Goku actually changed significantly (personality wise) from chapter 1 to chapter 3...? Couldn't disagree more.

Not significantly, but a bit, yes. That's why I proposed three different outcomes. If it's before he met Bulma, then he would let the Earth be destroyed. Goku knows there are other humans on Earth, but he has never seen them, he doesn't have a reason to care for their and the Earth's safety (beyond the 4-star DB's safety). If it's after he meets Bulma, Umigame and etc, then he has a feeling of commitment towards them, and wouldn't leave them to die, so he would save them, but consequently saving everyone else on Earth as a result.

Him putting his friends above everyone else is part of what defined his character before. It's when he treats every life the same that his character changes to a more heroic one.

Think about Piccolo Daimao, he killed him for Kuririn and Roshi, even if he saved the Earth as a consequence, but saving the Earth wasn't on his mind. If Daimao appeared later, say in the Boo arc, and the events were the same, then Goku would not only defeat him for Kuririn and Roshi, but he would have the Earth's safety on his mind, too.

[rereboy]

He also has no reason to care about the turtle and yet he did what he did. You seem to be forgetting that he is supposed to be pure of heart. He wouldn't sit idly and just watch some demon destroy everything and everyone in chapter 1 before meeting Bulma, or afterwards. Can you really imagine Goku sitting on the top of his house just watching a demon from afar destroying every forest, animal and everything else in his wake and Goku just saying: "Well, I don't care".

It would be the same with Piccolo Daimao if he had no friends. After seeing his destruction and knowing that he planned to destroy everything, he would fight him either way.

[Doctor.]

He also has no reason to care about the turtle and yet he did what he did. You seem to be forgetting that he is supposed to be pure of heart. He wouldn't sit idly and just watch some demon destroy everything and everyone in chapter 1 before meeting Bulma, or afterwards. Can you really imagine Goku sitting on the top of his house just watching a demon from afar destroying every forest, animal and everything else in his wake and Goku just saying: "Well, I don't care".

It would be the same with Piccolo Daimao if he had no friends. After seeing his destruction and knowing that he planned to destroy everything, he would fight him either way.

Goku is pure of heart because he has a very "pure sincerity about wanting to become stronger", that's what Toriyama said. He then goes on even further and says "he may do good things as a result, but I wanted to give the impression that he may not be a good guy at all", or something of the sort.

Yea, I think Goku wouldn't care much. If he tried to stop him, it would be for his own enjoyment, to have a good fight. The same thing with Piccolo Daimao, if he had no friends, then he'd have no motivation to stop him, he'd just fight him once he heard how strong he was and/or when Piccolo Daimao eventually met him. Goku doesn't go out of his way to purposefully fight evil, especially not in the earlier arcs.

[rereboy]

Goku doesn't go out of his way to purposefully fight evil, especially not in the earlier arcs.

Someone who is destroying the world is not staying out of Goku's way lol. Goku's is in the world. I really don't understand how you believe Goku would be ok with that... Not even most villains would be ok with that, let alone a guy that did what Goku did for the turtle. The moment he saw the demon attack the turtle and heard the turtle asking for help he would help just like he did by taking him to the sea, even without having met Bulma first and even without having even met the turtle before.

[Doctor.]

Goku doesn't go out of his way to purposefully fight evil, especially not in the earlier arcs.

Someone who is destroying the world is not staying out of Goku's way lol. Goku's is in the world. I really don't understand how you believe Goku would be ok with that... Not even most villains would be ok with that, let alone a guy that did what Goku did for the turtle. The moment he saw the demon attack the turtle and the turtle asking for help he would help just like he did by taking him to the sea.

Like I said, Goku would try to fight him once a) he knew of his power and wanted a good fight, or b) the demon met Goku and tried to kill him.

Sure, if someone asked for Goku's help, he would help. What you were saying, though, is if Goku saw the demon destroying stuff from afar, while Goku was in his house. I interpreted it as no outside interference in Goku's choice.

It would be like the Red Ribbon Army. Goku fought them when they messed with him and with his friends, but once he found the 4-star DB he was looking for, he said his journey was finished, I bet he wouldn't mess with the RRA anymore unless they came for his dragon ball. However, once Bora died, Goku went out of his way to help Upa and defeat the RRA (to acquire the DBs, too). Goku in the earlier arcs helps out of kindness, but not unless he knows the person or they ask for his help. Goku in the latter arcs puts the burden of saving everyone on himself.

[rereboy]

Sure, if someone asked for Goku's help, he would help. What you were saying, though, is if Goku saw the demon destroying stuff from afar, while Goku was in his house. I interpreted it as no outside interference in Goku's choice.

You really think Goku would think that forests being burned down, with all the animals, trees and maybe even people being burned alive inside it, by some demon who didn't seem to have any intention of stopping, is actually different from a demon chasing a turtle that is asking for help and that he would do something in one case and not the other?

It's basically the same. Goku sees creatures in distress, decides to help. That's all.

[Doctor.]

Sure, if someone asked for Goku's help, he would help. What you were saying, though, is if Goku saw the demon destroying stuff from afar, while Goku was in his house. I interpreted it as no outside interference in Goku's choice.

You really think Goku would think that forests being burned down, with all the animals, trees and maybe even people being burned alive inside it, by some demon who didn't seem to have any intention of stopping, is actually different from a demon chasing a turtle that is asking for help and he would do something in one case and not the other?

It's basically the same. Goku sees creatures in distress, decides to help. That's all.

Goku knew the Red Ribbon Army caused harm on a lot of people but he didn't step in and invade the base until someone he directly knew was affected. I'm not saying that Goku doesn't help people. I'm saying that there's a difference about how he chooses to help people in earlier arcs compared to later arcs.

[rereboy]

Goku knew the Red Ribbon Army caused harm on a lot of people but he didn't step in and invade the base until someone he directly knew was affected. I'm not saying that Goku doesn't help people. I'm saying that there's a difference about how he chooses to help people in earlier arcs compared to later arcs.

Like I said, Goku isn't Gohan who goes around searching for evil to stop. But you are ignoring that someone destroying the world would eventually be in Goku's way and Goku would see his destruction so, Goku not going out to look for evil is not even in question. It would come to Goku.

Just like Goku isn't going around looking for turtles to save but will save one if it crosses his path, he wouldn't be looking for destroyers, but he would fight destroyers that cross his path, and a world destroyer would be in his path because he is in the world.

[Doctor.]

Like I said, Goku isn't Gohan who goes around searching for evil to stop. But you are ignoring that someone destroying the world would eventually be in Goku's way and Goku would see his destruction so, Goku not going out to look for evil is not even in question. It would come to Goku.

Picture it like this, then: Ch. 1 Goku and Ch. 519 Goku know a demon is running around Earth destroying shit, but they've never actually seen him. Which one is more likely to go around the Earth to look for him and take care of the problem?

Just like Goku isn't going around looking for turtles to save but will save one if it crosses his path, he wouldn't be looking for destroyers, but he would fight destroyers that cross his path, and a world destroyer would be in his path because he is in the world.

That's what I was arguing though. I'm saying that Goku in earlier arcs won't go out of his way to fend off a world destroyed until they affect him or someone he knows directly, while Goku in later arcs would go searching for those threats just because of the thought of the Earth being destroyed or innocent people being hurt. If that demon posed a challenge to him, then it's even better for him. He won't go as far as Gohan, and stop every robber or criminal he can find, but if it's a moderately big threat, then he will step in even if it has nothing to do with him.

[rereboy]

Picture it like this, then: Ch. 1 Goku and Ch. 519 Goku know a demon is running around Earth destroying shit, but they've never actually seen him. Which one is more likely to go around the Earth to look for him and take care of the problem?

Since when have we started discussing which one was more likely? This discussion started when I stated that even people who aren't good would sacrifice themselves for the planet because they would die anyway and this way something that they like would survive, which means that sacrificing oneself in that situation isn't that significant in terms in goodness of even selfishness. It ends up relying more on courage and not being afraid, in fact. And then I added that even Goku at the beginning would do it, which seems obvious since even people who aren't good would be able to do it, let alone chapter 1 Goku who actually is good.

That's what I was arguing though. I'm saying that Goku in earlier arcs won't go out of his way to fend off a world destroyed until they affect him or someone he knows directly, while Goku in later arcs would go searching for those threats just because of the thought of the Earth being destroyed or innocent people being hurt. If that demon posed a challenge to him, then it's even better for him.

And that was never in discussion. I've talked about how Goku isn't like Gohan many posts ago. You just didn't understand my point.

[Doctor.]

Since when have we started discussing which one was more likely? This discussion started when I stated that even people who aren't good would sacrifice themselves for the planet because they would die anyway and this way something that they like would survive, which means that sacrificing oneself in that situation isn't that significant in terms in goodness of even selfishness. It ends up relying more on courage and not being afraid, in fact. And then I added that even Goku at the beginning would do it, which seems obvious since even people who aren't good would be able to do it, let alone chapter 1 Goku who actually is good.

Since the part I said Goku has developed into a heroic figure as the manga went on (and that, as such, his selfishness gradually disappeared, but the conversation deviated from that), that was kinda my point from the start.

I interpreted your post as "Goku alive or everyone else", I didn't think that Goku would die along with everyone else, in that case it's obvious he would sacrifice himself. If he survived though, then I wouldn't be so sure.

What I was saying was that if kid Goku was put in the same situation as Cell Games Goku, and he knew IT, then what he would do would be to try to save his friends, or at least sacrifice himself for them, even if he ends up saving the Earth as a result. Opposed to adult Goku who sacrificed himself for everyone. The point wasn't whether or not kid Goku would save the Earth, the point was to figure out what his intention would be.

[ABED]

I called you Fuzzball b/c i was being playful. I thought you'd get the obvious Star Wars reference. I don't think that line is particularly obscure.

Instead of understanding the point I was making with that sentence... Right...

You weren't really making a point, you essentially brushed me off with joke. Everything else you wrote in your reply, how am i supposed to know

It's fine if you say that mercy was the most important thing in letting Freeza go but you are coming across as arguing that it was the only relevant thing

No, you inferred that. Perhaps i could've been clearer, wanting to fight him might have been a small part of why he let him go, but everything else he said and his body language leads me to think Toriyama was saying Goku tried to let him go out of mercy. There was no excitement in his voice about having a rematch like there was when he fought Piccolo or Vegeta, it was pity.

I agree with Doctor., Goku doesn't go out patrolling for danger to fight. It finds him. If someone asks for his help, i don't recall when he doesn't help.

Not significantly, but a bit, yes. That's why I proposed three different outcomes. If it's before he met Bulma, then he would let the Earth be destroyed.

That doesn't strike me as Goku. If he knew someone was going to destroy the Earth, he would defend it because it's his home.

Deadpool, Punisher, Wolverine, Batman

I wouldn't lump Batman in with the others. He has a far more stringent moral code than the others. For one, he's not a merc like Deadpool. Batman's much more in line with someone like Superman.

Hm, what? I think you misunderstood me.

I just said that Goku putting the Earth in danger (if he puts the Earth in danger, he puts his friends and family too) is selfish, what are you getting at here?

That I think you have a very conventional and misguided view of what it means to be selfish. If selfishness is concern for one's self interest, why is putting something you value in danger selfish?