SSJGSS confirmed stronger than SSJ4?

[KentalSSJ6]

Vegetto doesn't have Godly Chi. I also don't think Toriyama would let fans create a plot device.

Because Vegetto himself wasnt a plot device?

[Hugo Boss]

As the things are now, I believe even Base Vegetto could be strong enough to give trouble to Whis, not to mention he could overtake Beerus or SS4 Gogeta. That way, SSGSS Vegetto would possibly require lots of gods stronger than Beerus to have a problem in a fight.

[KentalSSJ6]

As the things are now, I believe even Base Vegetto could be strong enough to give trouble to Whis, not to mention he could overtake Beerus or SS4 Gogeta. That way, SSGSS Vegetto would possibly require lots of gods stronger than Beerus to have a problem in a fight.

You are either really highballing Vegetto or severely lowballing the GT characters.

Base Vegetto overtaking SSJ4 Gogeta? Not even SSJ3 Vegetto would be enough. The line claiming Super Vegetto may perhaps be stronger than SSJ4 is when Goku was the only one during the Bebi Arc. SSJ3 to SSJ1 is a X8 increase, meanwhile we also got a line saying SSJ4 Gogeta is dozens of times stronger than either SSJ4 Goku or Vegeta in the Evil Dragon arc.

SSJ3 Vegetto = Bebi Arc SSJ4 Goku X8

SSJ4 Gogeta = Evil Dragon Arc SSJ4 Goku X Unknown Dozens.

[h0kuten]

As the things are now, I believe even Base Vegetto could be strong enough to give trouble to Whis, not to mention he could overtake Beerus or SS4 Gogeta. That way, SSGSS Vegetto would possibly require lots of gods stronger than Beerus to have a problem in a fight.

It's awesome to know Goku doesn't do that during the several occasions when Beerus' threatens to destroy Earth or kill he & Vegeta.

[KentalSSJ6]

Not to mention in the extended edition of BOG he flat out says Vegetto wouldnt be enough (and yes he was referring to Vegetto. He said fuse AGAIN and Gogeta never happened in the manga).

[h0kuten]

Not to mention in the extended edition of BOG he flat out says Vegetto wouldnt be enough (and yes he was referring to Vegetto. He said fuse AGAIN and Gogeta never happened in the manga).

It also makes zero sense that an in-universe statement would reference an out of universe character. Regardless of possibility. Vegetto is equally, and perhaps more of a possibility than Gogeta. Why? Because it would take some for Vegeta to stop bitchin' about fusing again and even more time for him to learn the dance. Whereas Goku could IT with Vegeta to The World of The Kai's, have them create another pair of earrings and they would resume to simply put them on.

Regardless of one's view-point, twisting of the statement, interpretation, Vegetto is the better, stronger and far more easier to create and summarily, is the canon fusion counter-part, not Gogeta. Conclusively, Goku is talking about Vegetto, not Gogeta.

[Hugo Boss]

SSJ3 Vegetto = Bebi Arc SSJ4 Goku X8

SSJ4 Gogeta = Evil Dragon Arc SSJ4 Goku X Unknown Dozens.

Okay, let's say that by your standards SS3 Vegetto is 8, while SS4 Gogeta is 80. You know that, after experiencing SSG, Goku's base form went from being not capable of beating Freeza to being able to overtake him (even after Freeza's training). That seems quite a jump in powerlevel if you factor that Freeza surpassed a Super Saiyan with just his first form. Though, we don't have concrete evidence, I could say that perhaps Goku's powerlevel must have skyrocketed and he possibly surpassed his previous SS3 form with just his new base form. Imagine the same thing with Vegetto. I don't have a problem with one stating the new Base Vegetto would be 80 or 100, if he will even exist. That seems a highballing, I admit, but it is still justified.

It's awesome to know Goku doesn't do that during the several occasions when Beerus' threatens to destroy Earth or kill he & Vegeta.

Perhaps Goku doesn't view Beerus as an enemy. Beerus should be glad Goku and Vegeta don't think at teaming up against him, though.

[KentalSSJ6]

SSJ3 Vegetto = Bebi Arc SSJ4 Goku X8

SSJ4 Gogeta = Evil Dragon Arc SSJ4 Goku X Unknown Dozens.

Okay, let's say that by your standards SS3 Vegetto is 8, while SS4 Gogeta is 80. You know that, after experiencing SSG, Goku's base form went from being not capable of beating Freeza to being able to overtake him (even after Freeza's training). That seems quite a jump in powerlevel if you factor that Freeza surpassed a Super Saiyan with just his first form. Though, we don't have concrete evidence, I could say that perhaps Goku's powerlevel must have skyrocketed and he possibly surpassed his previous SS3 form with just his new base form. Imagine the same thing with Vegetto. I don't have a problem with one stating the new Base Vegetto would be 80 or 100, if he will even exist. That seems a highballing, I admit, but it is still justified.

It's awesome to know Goku doesn't do that during the several occasions when Beerus' threatens to destroy Earth or kill he & Vegeta.

Perhaps Goku doesn't view Beerus as an enemy. Beerus should be glad Goku and Vegeta don't think at teaming up against him, though.

Goku only beat Freeza because of the gold form's stamina drain. Time and time again we see Freeza land multiple blows while countering Goku's. Goku even admits after he gets thrown to the ground that at the rate things were going, he wasnt going to win. Only after Freeza's weakness is pointed out does Goku start getting the upperhand so Goku didnt outright overtake Freeza. He still had a decent advantage over the Saiyan and its sorta implied by Whis that Goku and Vegeta would need to work together to beat Freeza.

Also, I'm not talking about your hypothetical Vegetto, I'm talking about the official manga Vegetto.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, the manga Vegetto is probably weaker than even SSGSS Vegeta. The point of using Potara again is only if they can get stronger than their godly powers combined. I forgot to mention that I wasn't factoring Golden Freeza at all, just Freeza at his final form. Goku had the upper hand without the need to transform. I assume that by the old numbers, Freeza should be at least 300 times more powerful than he was on Namek, not to mention Gohan is much stronger than Goku was back then and Freeza dispatched him easily. From 300 it would be a 3,000 increasing, and then Goku would be like 4,000 times more powerful.

[KentalSSJ6]

Well, the manga Vegetto is probably weaker than even SSGSS Vegeta. The point of using Potara again is only if they can get stronger than their godly powers combined. I forgot to mention that I wasn't factoring Golden Freeza at all, just Freeza at his final form. Goku had the upper hand without the need to transform. I assume that by the old numbers, Freeza should be at least 300 times more powerful than he was on Namek, not to mention Gohan is much stronger than Goku was back then and Freeza dispatched him easily. From 300 it would be a 3,000 increasing, and then Goku would be like 4,000 times more powerful.

Whis > Beerus > Gold Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > SSJG Goku > Super Vegetto.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't believe SSGSS is any different from SSG in powerlevel, but the rest fits just fine for me. Does it imply any problem with my theory about the hipotetical Vegetto? Or do you think a new Vegetto can't be stronger than he was when he fought Boo?

[KentalSSJ6]

I don't believe SSGSS is any different from SSG in powerlevel, but the rest fits just fine for me. Does it imply any problem with my theory about the hipotetical Vegetto? Or do you think a new Vegetto can't be stronger than he was when he fought Boo?

A new Vegetto isnt gonna happen so I dont bother thinking about it.

[Hugo Boss]

What about Gogeta then? How strong do you think he could be if he happens after they defeated Freeza now?

My personal opinion is that a new Base Gogeta would be stronger than both SSGSS Goku and SSGSS Vegeta combined or perhaps stronger than Beerus. If SSG Goku, Beerus and Whis are 6, 10 and 15, respectively, SSGSS Gogeta would be 100. To make the hipotetical situation more fair Gogeta should exist for only a few seconds once he transforms to Super Saiyan. The Fusion in base should burn a good amount of time too, since they would be surpassing Beerus' level momentarily.

[h0kuten]

Personally, I've got Vegetto from the Buu Saga 4x weaker than Vegetto from Battle of Gods, whose apparently weaker than a heavily suppressed Beerus at Super Saiyan 3.

Something like this:

Spoiler:

Beerus: 100 (Full Power)

Beerus: 10 (Expected)
Vegetto Ssj3 (BoG): 8

Vegetto Ssj3 (Buu): 2
Vegetto Ssj2 (BoG): 2
Beerus: 1 (Suppressed /vs Goku)
Vegetto Ssj (BoG): 1

Vegetto Ssj2 (Buu): .50
Vegetto Ssj (Buu): .25

There is a reason the Potara is completely useless by this point of time. IMO if Goku & Vegeta fused in Fukkatsu no F, they would probably get weaker and be within the strength of the Potara and not the Saiyan Gods, Vegetto is not a Saiyan God. Everything has limits, including Vegetto.

[Darkprince410]

There is a reason the Potara is completely useless by this point of time. IMO if Goku & Vegeta fused in Fukkatsu no F, they would probably get weaker and be within the strength of the Potara and not the Saiyan Gods, Vegetto is not a Saiyan God. Everything has limits, including Vegetto.

That makes no sense. It'd potentially be one thing if either Goku or Vegeta weren't capable of Ssj God Ssj at the time they fused, but if both were capable of it, there's no reason to believe that Vegetto wouldn't also have god ki and be capable of Ssj God Ssj. I mean, the earrings were originally created for individuals with god ki, so it'd make literally no sense that Vegetto would be weaker than Goku or Vegeta.

[h0kuten]

There is a reason the Potara is completely useless by this point of time. IMO if Goku & Vegeta fused in Fukkatsu no F, they would probably get weaker and be within the strength of the Potara and not the Saiyan Gods, Vegetto is not a Saiyan God. Everything has limits, including Vegetto.

That makes no sense. It'd potentially be one thing if either Goku or Vegeta weren't capable of Ssj God Ssj at the time they fused, but if both were capable of it, there's no reason to believe that Vegetto wouldn't also have god ki and be capable of Ssj God Ssj. I mean, the earrings were originally created for individuals with god ki, so it'd make literally no sense that Vegetto would be weaker than Goku or Vegeta.

Of course it makes sense.

Example:

Spoiler:

Godly Limits: 6-16
Potara Limits: 1

If Beerus threatened to destroy the Earth it would make less sense that Goku wouldn't IT for a pair of earrings and back to Vegeta and 1 shot him.

Please provide evidence that Goku & Vegeta are capable of using the Potara while in their God forms.

[Darkprince410]

Of course it makes sense.

Example:

Spoiler:

Godly Limits: 6-16
Potara Limits: 1

If Beerus threatened to destroy the Earth it would make less sense that Goku wouldn't IT for a pair of earrings and back to Vegeta and 1 shot him.

Please provide evidence that Goku & Vegeta are capable of using the Potara while in their God forms.

Provide evidence that they aren't capable of it, because that's not evidence at all that you showed. There is never indicated at any point that the Potara earrings have a limit to their power, neither stated nor suggested. The only limitation of a fusion's strength is based on the individuals performing the fusion, not on the actual fusion process itself. Goku wasn't a god when he stated that he and Vegeta, fusing together, wouldn't beat Beerus, nor was he even capable of contemplating what the power of Ssj God would be at that point, so immediately it becomes a situation of Goku and Vegeta's limits that are preventing Vegetto from being powerful enough to defeat Beerus, not some arbitrary limitation that you're imposing on how powerful a Potara fusion could be.

[Truhan]

That makes no sense. It'd potentially be one thing if either Goku or Vegeta weren't capable of Ssj God Ssj at the time they fused, but if both were capable of it, there's no reason to believe that Vegetto wouldn't also have god ki and be capable of Ssj God Ssj. I mean, the earrings were originally created for individuals with god ki, so it'd make literally no sense that Vegetto would be weaker than Goku or Vegeta.

Let's consider Vegetto wouldn't get much stronger with God ki. He could increase his storage space for it to grow inside of him. Think of it like this: because God ki doesn't belong to Goku or Vegeta, but was handed to them instead, only their bodies and capacity would merge to receive God ki later. Because potara fusion is a multiplication, it would improve their base storage to include the sum of their God ki, for example.

Base Goku = 10 (+ God Ki)
Base Vegeta = 10 (+ God Ki)

Vegetto = 100
God Ki = God Ki * 2

SSGSS Vegetto wouldn't really benefit from unleashing his God ki if it's only twice as strong as Goku or Vegeta's, in a body that is 10 times more capable. This is, off course, conjecture, because their God ki could be multiplied as well.

[Darkprince410]

SSGSS Vegetto wouldn't really benefit from unleashing his God ki if it's only twice as strong as Goku or Vegeta's, in a body that is 10 times more capable. This is, off course, conjecture, because his God ki could be multiplied as well.

Given that the Potara earrings were for the Kaioushin (who had god ki) to begin with, there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't affect their god ki in the same way as their normal ki

[h0kuten]

Of course it makes sense.

Example:

Spoiler:

Godly Limits: 6-16
Potara Limits: 1

If Beerus threatened to destroy the Earth it would make less sense that Goku wouldn't IT for a pair of earrings and back to Vegeta and 1 shot him.

Please provide evidence that Goku & Vegeta are capable of using the Potara while in their God forms.

Provide evidence that they aren't capable of it, because that's not evidence at all that you showed. There is never indicated at any point that the Potara earrings have a limit to their power, neither stated nor suggested. The only limitation of a fusion's strength is based on the individuals performing the fusion, not on the actual fusion process itself. Goku wasn't a god when he stated that he and Vegeta, fusing together, wouldn't beat Beerus, nor was he even capable of contemplating what the power of Ssj God would be at that point, so immediately it becomes a situation of Goku and Vegeta's limits that are preventing Vegetto from being powerful enough to defeat Beerus, not some arbitrary limitation that you're imposing on how powerful a Potara fusion could be.

Because Goku threw the idea out when he fought a heavily suppressed Beerus but when he turned into an initial SSJG, before powering up, it was a realm of power he didn't even know existed, when he previously knew that Vegetto level existed. This infers a huge gap. Meaning the two are in completely different dimensions, made from two different sources (one level higher than the other in the cosmic compass of Dragonball Z; ergo, Gods of Destruction & Creation versus Kaioshins), and ultimately one falls short of the other in power.