How strong do you think the God power multiplier is?

[Galan007]

Ssj4= 4000x base

Where are you getting this from?

If we assume the Super Saiyan multipliers were the same in GT, when GT Goku transformed into a SSJ, his PL would have increased by 50x. When he transformed into SSJ2, his PL would have increased by an additional 2x. When he transformed into SSJ3, his PL would have increased by an additional 4x.

As for SSJ4: we know that Super Baby Vegeta 2(who was >> SSJ3 GT Goku) should have gained at least a 10x power increase when he became a Golden Oozaru. This is important because n00b SSJ4 Goku was on par with Golden Oozaru Baby. Subsequently, this means SSJ4 could have been at least 10x> SSJ3.

In a nutshell:
n00b SSJ4 Goku [10x>] SSJ3 GT Goku [4x>] SSJ2 GT Goku [2x>] SSJ GT Goku [50x>] base GT Goku.

OR we can simplify it by saying that n00b SSJ4 Goku was 4,000x> base GT Goku(50*2*4*10=4,000x.)


I'm certainly not saying that is the case... Just pointing out how one could power-scale him up to that level.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a static multiplier. It brings the user to their utmost limits, so pretty much a less effective Rou Kaioshin ritual.

[Galan007]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a static multiplier. It brings the user to their utmost limits, so pretty much a less effective Rou Kaioshin ritual.

But we know SSJ4 skyrocketed Goku from significantly below Super Baby Vegeta 2-level, to Oozaru Baby-level. So logically, the multiplier should have been at least 10x.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What I'm saying is it wasn't a multiplier, just him being brought to his limits. His limits can happen to be 10x greater than his current top power, my point was just that the form isn't a static multiplier and can vary between people.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta was told to prevent Beerus' from getting angry, after he already beat Goku Ssj3.

Goku explicitly asks Beerus, as a Saiyn God, that if he beats him will he leave the Earth alone?

Goku, as a character and father, would have Gohan take the lead at his loss, if he believed Gohan to be superior in some way. This didn't happen after Goku already lost.

He says that he threw away his pride because he just wanted to fight with Beerus, and there was a chance that Goku could surpass Beerus even if he isn't the strongest. Toriyama also says that Goku was curious about becoming a SSG. Vegeta even questions why Goku is becoming a God, and he was told to shut up instead of telling him a valid reason, like "he is the strongest". He became the SSG because he had the idea to ask Shenlong, because everyone else believed in him, and he was curious about SSG & wanted to have a fight with Beerus.

Goku wants to protect the world, but his main objective is to fight powerful opponents. If he was always trying to save the world through the best method, he would have destroyed the Artificial Humans before they were created.

But either way, I do agree that if all 5 Saiyans were to become Gods, Goku would have been the strongest, because even though I have U. Gohan above SS3 Goku, base Goku is stronger than base Gohan. I don't think Ultimate would have any effect with SSG, the SSG would just override it IMO.

[Galan007]

What I'm saying is it wasn't a multiplier, just him being brought to his limits. His limits can happen to be 10x greater than his current top power, my point was just that the form isn't a static multiplier and can vary between people.

You're arguing semantics for no reason.

In order to approximate the power differential between base and SSJ4(which is what you asked about), I obviously had to use static multipliers... And it just so happens that the difference between SSJ3 and SSJ4 should have been at least 10x. So there you have it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm not arguing semantics for no reason. I asked him how he came to the conclusion SS4 was 4,000x a Saiyan's base power. Using Goku's boost to determine a multiplier doesn't work because it varies between the user.

[Hugo Boss]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a static multiplier. It brings the user to their utmost limits, so pretty much a less effective Rou Kaioshin ritual.

Isn't it a common description when it comes to new power-ups or transformations? There is always something related to "limits". I would like to see the variations.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Isn't it a common description when it comes to new power-ups or transformations? There is always something related to "limits". I would like to see the variations.

It's also said in the show that the whole reasoning behind Goku growing his tail back and achieving SS4 was to unlock his dormant power. So that coupled with the fact we're never given an actual multiplier, and that Vegeta seems to get a bigger boost than Goku when using SS4, I don't see a reason to make a static multiplier for the form, personally.

[h0kuten]

Ssj3 is supposed to bring a Saiyan to their limits...

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's said to be 4x SS2. You also conveniently ignored this part of my post:

It's also said in the show that the whole reasoning behind Goku growing his tail back and achieving SS4 was to unlock his dormant power.

[Galan007]

I'm not arguing semantics for no reason. I asked him how he came to the conclusion SS4 was 4,000x a Saiyan's base power. Using Goku's boost to determine a multiplier doesn't work because it varies between the user.

Well, we know that SSJ4 Vegeta must have possessed a ki-level very similar to that of SSJ4 Goku, because they didn't have to adjust their ki prior to using Metamoran fusion. ie. SSJ4 Vegeta=SSJ4 Goku.

...So in the 2 cases we have to work with, the SSJ4 multiplier ended up being the same. You can keep up the semantics-war if you'd like, though.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well, we know that SSJ4 Vegeta must have possessed a ki-level very similar to that of SSJ4 Goku, because they didn't have to adjust their ki prior to using Metamoran fusion. ie. SSJ4 Vegeta=SSJ4 Goku.

...So in the 2 cases we have to work with, the SSJ4 multiplier ended up being the same. You can keep up the semantics-war if you'd like, though.

Similar to a Goku who was powered up vastly by SS Goten, Trunks, and Gohan. We also see SS Goku outperforming SS/2 Vegeta in the previous arc, meaning his base power must be higher as well.

So if Vegeta is weaker than Goku in base/SS/SS2, and with SS4 he matched a powered-up SS4 Goku, that would mean Vegeta got a bigger boost from SS4 than Goku.

[Galan007]

We also see SS Goku outperforming SS/2 Vegeta in the previous arc

What are you referring to?

And even IF Vegeta received a larger SSJ4 boost than Goku, it would only mean that his base-to-SSJ4 ratio was more than the 4,000x Goku received.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What are you referring to?

SS Goku outperforming everyone else who fought Super #17.

[Galan007]

SS Goku outperforming everyone else who fought Super #17.

Oh, you mean the fight where SSJ4 Goku didn't do much better against S17 than he did as a SSJ1, lol? Meh, even if you want to use that showing as a reference, then it only makes Vegeta's SSJ4 multiplier that much more impressive.

I simply use Goku as my primary reference point because he is FAR easier to scale, given that he had access to ALL form's of Super Saiyan. He also fought opponents who were a lot easier to gauge/quantify. /shrug

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Super #17 had powered up by the time that he fought SS4 Goku, since he had a 10x KHH launched at him, which he absorbed.

[Galan007]

Super #17 had powered up by the time that he fought SS4 Goku, since he had a 10x KHH launched at him, which he absorbed.

Evidently that one blast must have increased his power by ~80x, because that is the difference between SSJ1 and SSJ4.

...OR we can go the more commonly accepted route and say that the S17 battle was simply inconsistent/illogical, even by GT standards.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The ~80x is an assumption because you're still assuming SS4 is constantly 10x SS3. Goku's SS4 form could be even 1.5x his SS3 form in this arc (since: SS4 Goku (S17) = SS4 Goku (Baby) > SS Goku (S17) > Super Oob > SS3 Goku (Baby) without contradicting anything, dropping #17's increase down to a ~12x increase (~4x for me since I use smaller multipliers for GT.) Which isn't out the realm of possibility since it's a 10x Kamehameha.

[Galan007]

The ~80x is an assumption because you're still assuming SS4 is constantly 10x SS3. Goku's SS4 form could be even 1.5x his SS3 form in this arc (since: SS4 Goku (S17) = SS4 Goku (Baby) > SS Goku (S17) > Super Oob > SS3 Goku (Baby) without contradicting anything, dropping #17's increase down to a ~12x increase (~4x for me since I use smaller multipliers for GT.) Which isn't out the realm of possibility since it's a 10x Kamehameha.

That's only if you assume SSJ Goku(S17) is actually > SSJ3 Goku(Baby), though. Personally, I find it quite unlikely as it would mean that he became upwards of 8x more powerful during the 1 year gap between arcs, wherein he wasn't implied to have underwent any sort of high-intensity training.

Is it possible? Sure(anything is possible in GT, lol.) I just don't think it's probable. As I mentioned: I think the S17 arc was just wildly inconsistent, even by GT standards... To each his own, though. /shrug