Is dragonball ruined now?

[Bullza]

I've had some issues with Super so far but the first 11 episodes of the show are definitley better than the first 11 episodes of DB, DBZ or DBGT.

[irreality]

Ok, first off, CGI is not "everything drawn on a computer". Digital Art !== CGI.

CGI refers to *computer generated*, in other words, the computer is generating the images, not simply being used as a replacement for paper and ink. Fractal art, textures, fire and water effects, etc. are examples of 2-D CGI. Using flash transforms and dissolves, particle generators, or AI modules are an example of computer generated animation. But using a tablet and photoshop for coloring are not by default CGI. That is just using a computer to create digital art.

They do use CGI in DBS/BoG and FnF for some textures, backgrounds and effects. But the vast, vast majority is still animated by people, even if those people are using tablets. They are drawing outlines, sketching out the fields for each color, drawing the inbetween frames individually, etc.

Dragon Ball Z has never been one of the best animated franchise ever. It has its moments of gloriousness, especially in DB… But. Yeah, no.

[Ringworm128]

Stuff like Young Justice and Rebuild of Evangelion show that modern animation can be just as good as retro stuff if not arguably better. And there were tones of badly made Z episodes. Just look at the episode after Trunks kills Freeza, something like BOG looks way better than that or a ton of other old episodes.

[MrWalnut4]

I gotta respectfully call BS on that there man.

1. I can see animation quality as being subjective(though there's a limit to that like if someone says episode 5 of super had good drawings.) But vegito vs super buu looked AMAZING! The colors were so crisp and the right amount of bright,the designs looked amazing. I frewaking wish I looked like vegito. I like how I look but come on,you cant say his design and even buu's aren't badass looking. and yeah you can say it's 0$ simply because it is. adobe flah doesn't cost money,animation cels do but they dotn use paper anymore because they're CHEAP!

2. do you know what cg is? it's not JUST the 3D parts in ROF where goku fought Freeza as a computer model.

CGI stand for computer generated imagry. if ite imagry is generated on a computer,then its CGI. even if it's 2D. South park is almost entirely 2D but it isn't hand drawn. It,liek super and battle of gods is drawn on tablets instead of paper. and colored digitally instead of by hand. Yeah cgi can look good,but this is cheap crap.

3. bog and rof weren't he first films relweased,and all they did was ruin dbz's image with bad examples of dbz. movie 12,13 in us theatres made people excited. bog made people pratcially put guns in their mouths.

new games? when did we get a new game recently?

ultimate tenkaichi-everyone hated it. disrespectful to the fans as a cheap rock paper siccors game where the voices were so recycled it wasn't even funny.

dbz for Kinect-DBZ UT engine revamped for Kinect. its the same game.

dbz battle of Z-UT engine AGAIN tweeked. if you datamine it' the same exact engine. the models are just changed a bit and some new stuff is added and some is taken out,like with the Kinect game form ultimate tenkaichi,accept that wasn't a skin change.

xenoverse-again,jsut battle of Z/ultimate tenkaichi engine revamped. a pile of shit with no combo system that lbeed more cash from people. disrespectfull as shit.

kai uncut? yeah that's what the fans want...less footage and less scenes from a show people were begging for MORE from. why not shorten it up?! The only people who liked it where the anime hating canon police who were manga purest and some people who liked seeing it in a new light,but it still wasn't new DBZ. it doesn't matter if its uncut on TV,toei was SO LAZY that when they removed thew AWESOEM yammamoto music,which was theo nly thing saving the already lazy show.......all they did was take 2 dbz songs and repeat em like crazy. they had so many songs and didn't have to spend a dime! but nope,no love for the fans like they used to have so we got lazy shit. and its on dvd so why do we need it on tv when its on dvd and youtube 24/7 instead of scheduled CROPPED adult swim rubbish? exactly.

just because its relasing more stuff doesn't mean its doing better or just as good,this stuff proves its cash bleeding. now if BOG was HAND drawn on paper then it'd be excuseable for the plot holes and bad acting,music and writing,because then it would be a obvious fuck u give us cash move from toei. dragonball doesn't even look like draognball anymore.

if I came off as insulting you,hat wasn't my intent. just had to correct that stuff. everything being done on computers now pisses me off.

You might want to fact check some of your claims. While there is an increasing amount of CGI in newer Dragon Ball films and anime, almost ALL of it is hand drawn. Kei17 posted some time ago on how modern anime is produced, and expect for a few specific animators, all the footage that isn't specifically CGI is hand drawn. The key frames are hand drawn on paper just like they were 20 years ago and then scanned into a digital format. They are then cleaned up, colored and matched with backgrounds and in-betweens to create the product we see. And while it is cheaper to use a digital format rather than cels, it is also faster and easier. They don't need tracers or colorers anymore when using a digital format which saves time, effort, and money as well as being objectively superior in terms of image fidelity when compared to cels. There is no cel shadow, physical film is no longer needed, and the consistency of shading is increased when using a specific RGB value instead of a specific color of a specific brand of paint. Some people like the look of cels on traditional film more than digital animation and I can respect that as I probably agree to some extent. But don't just assume they are doing to be cheap and cut corners.

As for the games, I see people make the argument constantly about how "they use the same engine!" in a game without really knowing what that means. A game engine is simply the code that controls game mechanics and renders graphics. If you change it too much from one game to another, it doesn't handle or feel the same way anymore. It is also incredibly expensive to create a new engine from scratch instead of using an already established engine and modifying it. If they were to change it significantly, people would complain that it doesn't feel like a DBZ game anymore.

You are free to have your opinion, but you might want to look into what you're talking about a little bit more before rushing to a conclusion. Just because you don't like the direction of Dragon Ball, does not mean that it sucks to everyone.

[shinmaru]

It's not ruined but I understand the disappointment.
Even the games do a better job than Super in catching the DragonBall feel.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Ok, first off, CGI is not "everything drawn on a computer". Digital Art !== CGI.

CGI refers to *computer generated*, in other words, the computer is generating the images, not simply being used as a replacement for paper and ink. Fractal art, textures, fire and water effects, etc. are examples of 2-D CGI. Using flash transforms and dissolves, particle generators, or AI modules are an example of computer generated animation. But using a tablet and photoshop for coloring are not by default CGI. That is just using a computer to create digital art.

They do use CGI in DBS/BoG and FnF for some textures, backgrounds and effects. But the vast, vast majority is still animated by people, even if those people are using tablets. They are drawing outlines, sketching out the fields for each color, drawing the inbetween frames individually, etc.

Dragon Ball Z has never been one of the best animated franchise ever. It has its moments of gloriousness, especially in DB… But. Yeah, no.

cgi-computer generated imagery. even adobe flash is cgi. look it up on websites. even the part of Wikipedia you cant edit list adobe as an example of CGI. don't just think Pixar when you think CGI. its computer made images. also even if its not cgi ...which it IS! It's still poorly made garbage now. the colors are so saturated. in battle of gods goku's so shiny those white squares on his face look like...well I cant say it here but you know what it looks like. only when he's ssj god with his jersey shore spray on tan does he not look like that. Modern animation is just lazy. give me the RELA animation with cels and DBZ is on the right path,but this....this is a literal eye sore that is disrespectfull as hell.

[VegettoEX]

cgi-computer generated imagery. even adobe flash is cgi. look it up on websites. even the part of Wikipedia you cant edit list adobe as an example of CGI. don't just think Pixar when you think CGI. its computer made images. also even if its not cgi ...which it IS! It's still poorly made garbage now. the colors are so saturated. in battle of gods goku's so shiny those white squares on his face look like...well I cant say it here but you know what it looks like. only when he's ssj god with his jersey shore spray on tan does he not look like that. Modern animation is just lazy. give me the RELA animation with cels and DBZ is on the right path,but this....this is a literal eye sore that is disrespectfull as hell.

Please let us know if you are not a native English speaker. If you are, please review the community guidelines - members are expected to type properly. This is borderline-unreadable.

Furthermore, you don't appear to actually be reading and listening to what other members are saying to you. The entire animation process was just outlined, but you've completely ignored that and continued on with your own made-up definitions and explanations.

These types of posts are unacceptable, and additional ones of this nature will be met with strikes lodged against your account. You do not want these.

[Doctor.]

I don't know what you expected from modern Dragon Ball, and I'm sorry for ruining your parade, but Dragon Ball as a franchise was never that special as you make it out to be. It was never a beautifully animated show, as a large majority of it was painfully bad and doesn't hold up well at all today; some of the fights had good animation, mostly because one of the two or three good studios worked on it, but compare it to any other anime now or at the time, and you can see it's average, or above average at best. Same thing goes for Super. It's not 100% CGI as countless people have already explained it for you, and Toriyama isn't betraying anybody because he doesn't draw the anime series and he has no input over whoever gets to work on it, that's all Toei.

Look, Dragon Ball Z is an anime that was adapted from a manga. Dragon Ball Z was never an anime that people poured their blood and sweat into it to make a perfect masterpiece, that's simply not true. The purpose of an anime that adapts from a manga, or any other kind of source material, is to give it more exposure. The DBZ anime existed as a merchandising tool, to promote the manga, to market toys and action figures. They only ever wanted the money, because that's why anime adaptations exist. Toei Animation is famous for making anime series of popular franchises to sell a lot of merchandise. Why do you think they made GT? And that's not only Toei. Why does the Pokémon anime still exist? Why is Naruto still on filler material when the manga is over? It's a business, that's the cold and harsh truth of it.

Now if we move on and talk about Toriyama himself for a minute, you're talking about a man who thinks his magnum opus is Dr. Slump, NOT Dragon Ball. A man who intended to publish Dragon Ball for a year and then went on for ten more because of either fan pressure or Shueisha's orders. A man who has made it clear he was tired of Dragon Ball multiple times after its ending. And a man who, most likely, only ever saw Dragon Ball as a way of paying the bills after a certain point, despite having originally created it to entertain children.

What we see now, in the form of Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F' and Dragon Ball Super, is a Toriyama who has found his love for the series once more after the massive insult to fans that was Dragon Ball Evolution, purposefully coming in on his own and changing Battle of Gods' script all by himself a couple of years ago. A Toriyama who, for the first time in God knows how long, is doing what he wants to do with Dragon Ball, with no restrictions.

If anything, instead of feeling insulted, you should be happy the franchise's author loves the series again, even if you personally don't like the direction it's going.

[shinmaru]

Like I said before Super is not the best DragonBall series right now but i'm happy we have a new series, it's better than having nothing. We need to keep our emotions in check and wait and see how Super will evolve.

[successoroffate]

It's odd that a once beautifully animated show has,dispite being very profitable and being a multi million dollar franchise has gone to being 100% CGI.
Yeah I know not all of it is 3D computer models,but it's still drawn on tablets and colored digitally. It's no longer hand drawn. In case you didn't know it's all CGI,even the 2D parts. Yeah this saves money,and yeah it's faster but how can Toriyama betray his fans like this?! It's to the point I don't even know why I follow super now because it feels like a giant middle finger to me. So much love and money wasted on a franchise that went from people putting their blod and sweat into making beautiful and amazing to....(not to bash fan animators) fan animation tier. It doesn't look professionally done,please don't tell me to get over it I wanna know if I'm the only one who feels betrayed.

Part of me wants to love DBZ,more then anything I do but it just doesn't feel like DBZ anymore.

And before you ask no this isn't trolling or just mindless bashing. I feel conflicted between my want to love my once favorite thing in the world that got me through rough times and the unparreled hatred at what this THING is that franchise has become. How can people go on liking this knowing its gotten so "we don't care about you guys give us your money" that its now done in adobe,the characters n story is all out of wack and its no longer a labor of love and what we used to love?

Please somebody give me your perspective. I fell like I lost my best friend in DBZ. No rude comments PLZ. Basically I just wanna know how people can still love DBZ when it's no longer DBZ. That's all. Tell me if you think it's ruined and dead or whatever your stance is. I just need to know how I can go on still loving this franchise again.

Very pessimistic point of view and I disagree

[MCDaveG]

I don't think your hate is based on the facts pretty much, because it is not entirely that it is cheaper, we are doing it cheaper thing. Well, that doesn't make much sense, but let me explain.

It's simple progress. Nowadays we go for digital because it is cheaper and it is more rewarding. You can store data without quality loss, you can store it without a problem anywhere.
It's the same in the music, as we don't record the music on magnetic tapes at all, which was long process with characteristic problems and rules. You can look it up on Google, how painfull the process was against nowadays up to the PC,
not mentioning the editing options.

In animation, it is simmilar. Not only the films used for animation were more expensive and are more expensive now as the trend moved to digital, so the companies are not oriented on the production of cells as much as they were and in the end they are as expensive as they are. But also, the animation process was painfull, long, the image was shaking, there was grain, impurities. It was harder to correct something and it all went on tape. The material degrades by the time also
and you have to store loads of tapes somewhere.

With digital technology, you have more options what to do, including better special effects, that you can apply right away and not ad hoc like before. Clearer picture, faster workflow.
The process of animating series is interestingly still the same. The people are still drawing it. Tough if you are not using brushes and filters, it isn't looking the same as the paintjob anymore.
If you'll watch this video, you will see that the grain does and colours do a lot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J0UmZ9uLtM.

Also, the thing with brighter colours is simple. I will explain it really easy. The paint uses colours on the basis of using ''dark'', as you cover up something with the colours. The same principle is used naturally in print with CMYK profile.
But in digital, the colours have ''light'' basis, as they are the RGB (which is based on daylight spectrum), so they work the opposite way. You can try this up in photoshop for example, as you switch between CMYK and RGB colour management,
that the colours mix into shades differently and almost in the opposite way. The RGB to the human eye appears more vivid and brighter, as the screened paint doesn't enhance by conversion to digital format.

It's how the anime is nowadays.

[ErikB]

On the "CGI" matter, I've come to realize that using specific umbrella terms in animation is just a lost cause.
People do generally associate CG with 3D models being animated, or with special effects on live-action, which is technically correct. People will also generally associate the phrase "computer animation" with the same thing, which is also technically correct. Digital hand-drawn animation is also animation that uses a computer and so could be considered "computer animation" as well. But at what point of computer-involvement does it actually become computer animation? Plenty of animated productions that used cels also had computer effects used in them, or had full-on 3D models integrated into the drawn animation (going as far back as The Black Cauldron in 1985, if not further). Even further back than that, the cels themselves were shot frame-by-frame and stored on a computer. Stop-motion uses actual physical objects shot frame-by-frame and then stored on a computer. Incidentally, plenty of digital animation still starts out on paper and is then cleaned and coloured on computer; I could be wrong but I thought that's how Super is being produced.

Colloquially, if you say "3D animation", the layman generally assumes you mean animation that uses stereoscopic 3D. So you would clarify by saying "computer animation", but then you might have to further distinguish 3D models versus 2D puppets (which is colloquially referred to as "Flash animation" even though it isn't done exclusively in Flash) versus hand-drawn.

"Traditional animation" isn't all that helpful a term either. At large, people seem to equally use it to refer to hand-drawn exclusively done on cels or hand-drawn in any form, digital or otherwise. And yet there are so so many forms of pre-computer animation that calling any one particular form "traditional" seems really disingenuous.

*Sigh* At least "Stop-Motion" is clear and straightforward.

That said, being done on computer does not invariably harm the quality of animation. All the same principles apply, all the same skills are necessary of the artists, and all the necessary tools are available to produce the same quality of animation (or better if you can really put the effort in). If we're talking about hand-drawn animation done on a computer, all computers did was eliminate the need for previously-necessary evils; like the processes of transferring the drawings from paper to cel, painting the back of the cels, and shooting the cels on a physical shooting station one by one; these processes are replaced by a digital workflow that in no way directly harms the quality.

Anyway, more on topic I guess: Much as I don't like the modernized Dragon Ball style, it looks leagues better than a lot of the Last House episodes of the original animes (particularly in late Z era).

[Rodimus Prime]

I do not think the franchise is ruined because of the quality of the animation. I do wonder why they changed the art nowadays (starting with the "prototype" version seen in the OVA Dragon Ball: Yo!! Son Goku and his Friends Return!! and the all-new version in the OVA Dragon Ball: Plan to Erradicate the Super Saiyans), but to me it is not a bad issue. Of course, a franchise has its ups and downs, and something will not please the entire world, it is a perspective matter, which varies from person to person, you know.

[Lord Beerus]

If we're gonna judge whether the quality of the animation has ruined Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball would have been ruined a long time ago.

[Cipher]

I can't believe all the recent board attitudes actually culminated in a thread with this title. It's like the stars aligned and the universe has delivered me a gift.

Would you say you think the series has been ruined ... FOREVER?

[precita]

Anyone find it ironic the thread creator has an avatar of Super Saiyan 4 Broly fighting Goku and he's complaining about the anime being ruined forever?

[VegettoEX]

Anyone find it ironic the thread creator has an avatar of Super Saiyan 4 Broly fighting Goku and he's complaining about the anime being ruined forever?

Please refrain from personal attacks.

[Soppa Saia People]

I've had some issues with Super so far but the first 11 episodes of the show are definitley better than the first 11 episodes of DB, DBZ or DBGT.

I disagree the first 11 episodes of Ball were great and the first 11 episodes of Z were good, can't speak for gt though.

[JulieYBM]

The majority of commercial Japanese animation is still drawn with pencil and paper.


Yamamuro Tadayoshi drawing Son Gokuu for Dragon Ball Z: Fukkatsu no F.


Key Animation by Ishii Yuriko, Shirobako.


Key Animation drawings by Shida Naotoshi for various series he has worked on.

Digital animators are out there, but they're not the norm.

[Froggy]

i decided to consider dragon ball super and GT on the same canonical level, so for me DBZ still great.
maybe you should do it aswell.