Goku and Vegeta should have been retired as leads

[ABED]

The strongest parts about season 9 was whenever the older cast was onscreen. Here's the thing, I don't even dislike that season, I liked Drew and his relationship with both Dr. Cox and Denise. However, I would've preferred it had they just been interns and the show was still about JD, Turk, Elliot, Dr. Cox, etc. The show not being set in Sacred Heart also hurt. Bottom line, fresh blood is great when it's well done, but not when the fresh blood replaces the leads.

New characters as the leads isn't like something like sports or pro wrestling. Sure, Goku does get older, but he can stay the same age, get stronger, or stay in his prime longer. It's not like real life where father time eventually gets the best of athletes and so you need fresh blood.

[IDreamtIWasABee]

They couldn't replace Peter Parker with himself. Legacy characters are a gamble. Not just "hard," not just "implausible," but a gamble: you're banking on the fans collectively transferring loyalty to an entirely new person, and they're going to do that -or not- regardless of how well you do it.

Toriyama screwed the pooch by not only replacing Goku, but by making Gohan age into, effectively, a new character; replace other old favorites with kid Trunks and Goten; and meandering through Gohan's misadventures in high school without any clear storytelling goal. If he'd kept Gohan a kid with Goku as a guardian angel on standby, he might have pulled it off, but even that would have been tricky.

[ekrolo2]

Nor will Toriyama be able to write it anymore, a day I eagerly anticipate so the man can finally retire from the series (if you thought I eagerly wait his death, I don't cause I'm not a morbid bastard, I just think his best days are behind him) and let some fresh blood come in at last.

I don't really want Dragon Ball not written or designed at least a *little* bit by Toriyama. If I wanted to read a different author, I'd read a different author. Fanfiction/fanart aside, of course. I mean, what is the point?

We've had like 15 years without Toriyama's involvement in DB. I know what that is like already. I don't need to eagerly await it because I already lived through it.

Toriyama won't live forever and the series will most assuredly outlive him, the sooner people accept the fact he will for one reason or another not write anymore DB stuff, the better. Plenty of other have been done and done leagues better by other people than the original creators like most superheroes, Star Wars, Ninja Turtles, the non-WoW related Warcraft material. Hell, Father of Goku and the Trunks special alone murder almost everything Toriyama himself has done even in his prime in sheer quality alone so really, I don't see why Dragon Ball should just roll over and died because the "great" Toriyama can't or won't do it at some point. Just get a competent replacement writer, maybe have Toriyama pick one for you and jump off from there.

[dbzfan7]

Once the universe 6 arc starts we'll hopefully be ditching the baggage and getting the new characters who will co star with Goku and possibly Vegeta. Dragon Ball has always done this where our cast is eventually tossed aside for new people sans Goku. The humans had this treatment, Piccolo got it, the saiyans sans Goku got this, and now we're soon to have everyone but the holy 4 tossed for the several new universe 6 characters we were told about. I can't wait til Goku and Vegeta hopefully go to universe 6, and they're forced to give meaning to a bunch of new characters. I used to really want more development and growth for the others like Gohan and Piccolo, but fuck those guys now. Just get to the new characters so when they do decide to cut to someone else, it's at least an intriguing new character they'll do something with. They were already mentioned to be at least on par with Goku, so they have to be relevant.

[irreality]

Toriyama won't live forever and the series will most assuredly outlive him, the sooner people accept the fact he will for one reason or another not write anymore DB stuff, the better.

As I said, I accepted that fact about a decade ago, when Toriyama said he was done with DBZ. I'm familiar with the feeling already and know how I would deal with it. I just ignore DB stuff without Toriyama. Easy peasy!

[ABED]

Nor will Toriyama be able to write it anymore, a day I eagerly anticipate so the man can finally retire from the series (if you thought I eagerly wait his death, I don't cause I'm not a morbid bastard, I just think his best days are behind him) and let some fresh blood come in at last.

I don't really want Dragon Ball not written or designed at least a *little* bit by Toriyama. If I wanted to read a different author, I'd read a different author. Fanfiction/fanart aside, of course. I mean, what is the point?

We've had like 15 years without Toriyama's involvement in DB. I know what that is like already. I don't need to eagerly await it because I already lived through it.

Toriyama won't live forever and the series will most assuredly outlive him, the sooner people accept the fact he will for one reason or another not write anymore DB stuff, the better. Plenty of other have been done and done leagues better by other people than the original creators like most superheroes, Star Wars, Ninja Turtles, the non-WoW related Warcraft material. Hell, Father of Goku and the Trunks special alone murder almost everything Toriyama himself has done even in his prime in sheer quality alone so really, I don't see why Dragon Ball should just roll over and died because the "great" Toriyama can't or won't do it at some point. Just get a competent replacement writer, maybe have Toriyama pick one for you and jump off from there.

There's a big difference between American superheroes and manga like DB. DB was written by one guy and had a beginning, middle, and end. American comics typically have a beginning and an infinite middle. DB is more akin to something like Harry Potter. I don't want to read a story that isn't written by JK Rowling, it's her story and her world. The story had a great end, there's no reason for anyone to continue it past that point. I'm sure there are plenty of great writers who could make a compelling continuation, but why go further with these characters? I'm not sure it will ever have the same feel as her writing. The story is complete, just create something original.

"Father of Goku and the Trunks special alone murder almost everything Toriyama himself has done even in his prime in sheer quality alone"
Why? Because they're more dramatic?

I love Star Wars, but if all it had ever been was the Trilogy, it would be more than fine. Just like DB, I lived for over a decade without new DB, and I was more than fine with that.

[irreality]

Yes, exactly. I was just thinking of Harry Potter as an example. I also don't want someone writing more LotR. I don't mind C. Tolkien publishing/editing his writings posthumously, but I don't need a new ghost writer writing new stories. I love those worlds, and read fanfiction in those worlds, etc. I just don't need a new author.

[ekrolo2]

There's a big difference between American superheroes and manga like DB. DB was written by one guy and had a beginning, middle, and end. American comics typically have a beginning and an infinite middle. DB is more akin to something like Harry Potter. I don't want to read a story that isn't written by JK Rowling, it's her story and her world. The story had a great end, there's no reason for anyone to continue it past that point. I'm sure there are plenty of great writers who could make a compelling continuation, but why go further with these characters? I'm not sure it will ever have the same feel as her writing. The story is complete, just create something original.

And if I don't want that original thing but more good content from DB regardless of who it comes from? It doesn't even need to be more of Goku and the Earth crew. I'd be fine with a whole new protagonist set in one of the alternate universes with new races, new worlds that just so happen to be set in the DB universe.

"Father of Goku and the Trunks special alone murder almost everything Toriyama himself has done even in his prime in sheer quality alone"
Why? Because they're more dramatic?

And because they actually have consequences that not even Toriyama himself could ass pull away with a quick fix. In a series that's pretty much synonymous with that kind of writing on top of a lot of what would become shonen cliches later on, having two stories where the hero actually fails and fails miserably with no easy way out alone just puts it ahead of everything non BoG & Freeza.

I love Star Wars, but if all it had ever been was the Trilogy, it would be more than fine. Just like DB, I lived for over a decade without new DB, and I was more than fine with that.

[/quote]

Besides Jedi and Revenge I don't like any of the movies and I think a lot of the video games, novels, comics and TV shows not only have better writing but better characters, story-lines, actual explorations of those characters and the SW universe that none of the films thus far have reached. If anything, I'd be fine with no more movies ever and just kept getting the other stuff that's been proven to be a lot better from my experience.

[ABED]

Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars are the best of the 6. I don't think anything else touches those two movies. "I know" is one of the greatest moments in movie history.

Another example is Justified. We certainly could see new adventures with Raylan, but "We dug coal together" is the perfect ending. No need to go further, much less with new leads even though I love that world.

Supernatural is one of my favorite shows, but the show just hasn't been as great as it once was since Kripke ended his 5 year story. There have been great episodes and great moments since then, but nothing overall compares to those first five seasons.

[Soppa Saia People]

I would replace Vegtea but not Goku.

Honestly, the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta is so awesomely unique that I can't see Goku going on any kind of new adventures without Vegeta by his side.

I understand why people like the combo, but I don't. Now one of the reasons why is because I dislike Vegeta, not to metion I like Goku and Piccolo combo* more. (Though that may be because they're my favorite characters)
* no I don't mean I ship them.

[fadeddreams5]

He doesn't need to be the lead to do that.

The whole point is for him to develop into a character that fits that role (or co-lead).

[ABED]

He doesn't need to be the lead to do that.

The whole point is for him to develop into a character that fits that role.

Maybe as a coda, but there are plenty of directions to take him besides just the lead hero. I think Gohan ending up a scholar and a family man is a great fitting ending for him, even if the way we got there was less than smooth.

[Deathbringer]

Hell, Father of Goku and the Trunks special alone murder almost everything Toriyama himself has done even in his prime in sheer quality alone

Yeah can't say I agree with that at all...but either way wasn't the Trunks special based on a special chapter Toriyama wrote for the manga?

On the subject of Goku and Vegeta as the main leads, the situation is out of our hands now, it's out of Toriyama's hands as well. These characters have become such huge cultural icons at this point that they simply have to be in the spotlight otherwise who knows how the wider fanbase will react? But this is one of the reasons why I like BoG because every character gets a chance to shine, even though it's mainly through comedic scenes I still count that as being in the spotlight and awknoledgeing that these characters serve a purpose even though the bulk of the fighting has to be done by a select few.

Also Goku has always been the main character and the prospect of Gohan replacing him is a ship that already sailed at the beginning of the Boo saga sadly.

[dbzfan7]

He doesn't need to be the lead to do that.

The whole point is for him to develop into a character that fits that role (or co-lead).

I would drop it if I were you. Trust me. You'll save yourself a headache and thank yourself.

[Faustus]

And because they actually have consequences that not even Toriyama himself could ass pull away with a quick fix. In a series that's pretty much synonymous with that kind of writing on top of a lot of what would become shonen cliches later on, having two stories where the hero actually fails and fails miserably with no easy way out alone just puts it ahead of everything non BoG & Freeza.

So they're better than anything Toriyama by default simply because they tell tragic stories? You're being uncritical; art is as much form as it is matter. Dragon Ball GT is all about actions and their consequences, for example, and yet you don't seem to look favorably on that.

At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, and to segue into a bit of a larger point, I just gotta ask: do you even like Dragon Ball (anymore)? You seem to be wanting to be it to be something that it just isn't at its core -- cerebral, psychological, pseudo-philosophical, gritty, self-serious and melodramatic -- when it has its main strength in its thrills, timeless charm and singular sense of whimsy. It's also for kids. You're applying standards to Dragon Ball that aren't suited to it, and disparaging it for an absence of merits it doesn't even purport to have. You wouldn't, say, fault The Simpsons or the Looney Tunes for being void of weighty drama or consequence; same deal here.

I am not sure, either, how much could possibly be gained from a switch in the direction you're proposing when, even if it made that switch, you could always still find whatever it is you're seeking done better in more sophisticated fiction; even a serious DB could only treat serious themes at best superficially by comparison. At which stage, what is the point? Just read/watch higher fiction then. What DB does (when it's done especially well) it already does best.

Not to pry, but I am sincerely wondering whether you're not here on nostalgia alone at this point.

[ABED]

I like the Bardock and Trunks special, and there are parts of the series where it's appropriate to go darker, but that doesn't equal better. One of the best parts of the show is the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc. It's so good and so much fun.

having two stories where the hero actually fails and fails miserably with no easy way out alone just puts it ahead of everything non BoG & Freeza.

No it doesn't. What's so sophisticated and great about having heroes fail? Those stories work because while the heroes fail, there is still a sense of hope, otherwise what purpose do they serve? I also disagree vehemently that BOG and Freeza are the only things that can match the two specials. What about the two Piccolo arcs? The Saiyan arc? The hero losing isn't deep.

[EXBadguy]

I don't think Goku and Vegeta should retire for good, but to just step back for a while, then if the threat becomes too big for the new heroes to handle, they'll step in. A new generation CAN work, just execute it well. Look at Naruto. And don't tell me to find another series that have the next generation concept, I wanna see Gohan, Pan, and Uub grow as Goku's main successors, I wanna see Goten and Trunks form a good team, I wanna see Videl be one of the most powerful women fighters(next to 18), and wanna see good character development for Hercule!

The problem is that everybody's giving Goku and Vegeta too many handjobs, to the point where their things lose the white stuff and blood.

what everyone wanted to see for years

Not everyone.

You should see how many people were pissed off that Super wasn't based of EoZ.

[fadeddreams5]

No it doesn't. What's so sophisticated and great about having heroes fail? Those stories work because while the heroes fail, there is still a sense of hope, otherwise what purpose do they serve? I also disagree vehemently that BOG and Freeza are the only things that can match the two specials. What about the two Piccolo arcs? The Saiyan arc? The hero losing isn't deep.

To be fair, Goku and Vegeta both failed when they sacrificed themselves, but the scenes were still deep for other reasons. =P

The hero failing isn't what makes it so, but the fact that they stand up and oppose an obstacle they have no chance of overcoming. It's pretty badass. That said, it's way more rewarding when their sacrifice accomplishes something--anything significant at all.

[irreality]

I don't think Goku and Vegeta should retire for good, but to just step back for a while, then if the threat becomes too big for the new heroes to handle, they'll step in. A new generation CAN work, just execute it well. Look at Naruto. And don't tell me to find another series that have the next generation concept, I wanna see Gohan, Pan, and Uub grow as Goku's main successors, I wanna see Goten and Trunks form a good team, I wanna see Videl be one of the most powerful women fighters(next to 18), and wanna see good character development for Hercule!

I don't mind things like that happening in the background. Super might show more development for Mr. Satan -- seems like they are hinting at him having another "save the world" moment in Super, and it might go beyond that. And they might do things with Trunks and Goten, yet.

But although I do like all the supporting characters and don't mind them being more involved, there is an issue with them being the main character. It is the problem of archetypes. Gohan, no matter how good a fighter he is is not Goku's archetype. He is not even Piccolo's archetype. He can't fulfill that role and thus the stories that revolve around him will be very different stories. They can be a part of DB as B-plots, but they can't be the A-plot without making Dragon Ball a different story.

That is what Piccolo tells Goku in the Cell Games: Gohan is not the person you think he is, and can't just tag you out of a fight just because he is stronger or has more potential. He did end up killing Cell that day, but it was a very… for lack of a better phrasing, traumatic. You can't have a story made up just of that. The Gohan would have to be Future Gohan living in an apocalyptic world.

Pan and Uub, honestly, they were in like one scene in DBZ, but they could be developed into Goku type characters. It is just getting them to the point where they are compelling, developed personalities first that would be the problem, and there would have to be a lot of plot to get there. GT was the place to do that, and they missed that opportunity.

[garfield15]

We don't need Goku and Vegeta to retire, we just need to focus on the other characters as much as them.