Lets end this once and for all! Question to the BoG/FnF fans

[Lord Beerus]

I'd still enjoy BOG and Resurrection F immensely, regardless of whether Toriyama or Toei was involved or not. I mean, this isn't a case of Only The Creator Does It Right, I'm just more concerned by how entertained I will be.

[Bullza]

I'd take a recolour over what Super Saiyan 2 was, a difference so marginal people have to debate what form it's supposed to be most of the time.

[ekrolo2]

2s problem is that Toriyama completely failed to really differentiate it once Goku and Vegeta attained it which the anime made even worse. But when Gohan got it initially, it looked distinctly different from his SSJ form and for some reason Toriyama never managed to replicate it.

[Zephyr]

Part of the difference between what was done by fans back then, and what was recently done by Toriyama, is that before, a lot of cases it would be "this is Super Saiyan 8, and it's literally just blue Super Saiyan!", whereas what Toriyama did was essentially have two already existent forms overlap, which didn't exactly necessitate exuberant physical changes.

The key difference here then is that one is accompanied by justification (adequate or not) for its simplicity, while the other feels more like a random recolor with a random number slapped on. At least for me. If SSG and SSGSS were attained just by powering up more as Super Saiyan 3, and were named Super Saiyan 4 and 5 respectively, I'd be a lot more harsh on them.

Art quality would also make a world of difference I'd say.


A lot of the time execution is key.

[T Pac]

I probably have a bit of a unique perspective on this as my fandom was recently revived (mostly due to the news of Super) after being completely dormant for several years. I watched both new movies without any knowledge as to whether Toriyama was involved or not.

BoG is undoubtedly my favorite DBZ movie, and it's not particularly close -- but that's almost entirely because of the humor and characters. The plausibility of it being canonical is also a plus. That said, I groaned a bit at the SSJG transformation and find it to be a bit of an unnecessary cop-out. I'm one of those fans who's had enough with the transformations and power-ups. But as I mentioned, the overall mood of the story was more than enough to overcome my personal disappointment with yet another transformation.

FnF, though, i was not a fan of -- seemed way too much like a cookie cutter DBZ movie, and as with BoG, I could have done without either transformation. I've always thought one of the redeeming factors of the newer movies were the Trunks & Goten shenanigans, the lack of which here was another disappointment. My overall reaction was, as someone who probably spends too much time wondering 'Is this Canon?,' was hoping to be able to totally ignore the existence of the movie within the context of the Dragonball story going forward.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Some people ARE biased in 2 ways.

1. If it's by Toriyama it's automatically better then the same exact thing by toei because in the Toriyama outcome it's undisputable canon to them. I can respect that even though I don't consider anything with beerus as "true" dragonball canon, I think it's more of original canon as I'm more of a anime fan rather then a manga fan (LOVE both)

2. Then there's the bias of people who hate what Toei does simply because they aren't Toriyama (which no disrespect but outrageous to me. Imagine if superman fans did that with everything after the maker died, he wouldn't be so relevant now a days. One of the cons of social media is people bandwagon hating on stuff.)

So either you like it solely because Toriyama made it, or you like the because it's quality and you enjoy the fact Toriyama has the seal of approval on them. Both exist but the fans aren't solely one. The way I see it-The anime canon ended with GT, I'm happy we got new stories that did take place even if it doesn't tie in with GT. There's part of the original canon and I love that! I enjoy the sole fact Toriyama made these but if he didn't I'd STIIL love these films. Even though battle o Gods is my LEAST favorite DragonBall film I still give it a 10/10....if Toei made it the exact same way but without Toriyama it personally wouldn't keep it from being fun for me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The same kind of design, mocked for years on fan art sites for being a recolour and not having any creativity in them. Fans who recoloured old forms were essentially looked over as being lame and unimaginative people. Then when it's official, suddenly that's ok....and those fan artist still suck apparently despite doing the same thing years before Toriyama did it.

This is a nice story to tell to back up your claims, but it's a HUGE assumption and I'm SUPER curious if anyone's found any examples of even one single person actually being hugely hypocritical about this.

I mean, do you actually have an examples of anyone saying this? Anyone at all? Or is it just a generalization you're tossing out there? Who is this mystery person that hated blue-haired recolors in the past and has simultaneously now gone on-record again as praising the new forms? Is there a name? Who is this fan you're talking about? Name some names! (Without somehow personally attacking them, I guess...?! )

I think it's waaaaaaaaay more nuanced than you're making it out to be. And EVEN THEN, people are absolutely allowed to change their opinions! Maybe someone didn't like the design, but after seeing it in context of the film, came around to an appreciation. That's certainly likely, right?

No I don't mean just blue SSJ for instance as I've seen blue, green, white, red, etc. Recolours have been a huge part of the internet. Finding examples now is kinda tough as they're buried among all the new SSGSS stuff which further encouraged recolour forms. I also have to sort out what counts as a recolour form, and what is just a simple character recolour. Both exist. A lot of fan art now has SSGSS2, SSGSS3, SSGSS4, etc. I believe in the fan art thread a couple of examples we're posted of these designs way before the reveal, and I don't think anyone really batted much of an eye. One example I believe I at least posted some time back had a blue Goku, Green Gohan, Purple Piccolo, etc. Though Goku may have had red eyes with the blue hair...can't remember.

*Edit* here

Spoiler:

It's hard to research examples of the same people's opinions as I'd have to stalk their posts to find out if they changed their mind. Then there's singling out users which also isn't really allowed either. My basis comes from recolours generally being looked down upon (usually when done via photoshop or paint), The most popular recolour hatred is in the sonic series fanbase where they run rampant. Dragon Ball wise recolours don't come up nearly as much, so don't get nearly as bad a rep. Though I've seen my share of SSJ6's which were recoloured SSJ4's. The artstyle usually helps as a lot of recolours as I said are done via photoshop or paint. When drawn well they sometimes may get a pass simply because the artist can draw the Dragon Ball artstyle in an appealing manor.

IMO, the problem with the recolors in fan-arts is that they don't have any logic behind them. We have SS1-4, then you see this as SS5, which makes sense coming after SS4 and looking like that, and then you see SS6 being a Super Saiyan 3 with red hair, SS7 a Super Saiyan 4 with golden hair, SS8 a Super Saiyan with gray hair, SS9 a SS3 with multiple colors. How does this evolution make sense? Not to mention they are usually poorly made.

But with SSG & SSGSS, there is a logical progression to them. SSG doesn't come after SS3, it's a new transformation that starts comes after the base form, and the point of it just giving red hair & eyes and a slimmer body is to make it the opposite of the previous forms we got, which either changed the hair (SS/2/3), increased the body size (SSG2/3 & LSS), or gave a whole new look (SS4). It is supposed to be the most powerful form up until that point, yet it's the simplest looking one, and instead of being gold, it's red. And then SSGSS comes, which is a combination of SS & SSG, so it makes sense for it to be a SS with a whole new color, blue, instead of golden or red.

For me, it's not just that I like how they look, I also like the idea behind them. If SS5 was to come after SS4, and it looked like SSGSS does, it would have been lame, because it just doesn't make sense.

[Luso Saiyan]

I think it's time I get this off my chest. And I know other people here are probably asking the same question too.

So to the people who loved BoG and FnF/RF, If Toei or any other company made the last two movies with the same story and the same transformations instead of Toriyama, would you still like it? Would you give any of the company props? Would you praise it like it was made by Toriyama? Lemme know.

If Toriyama wasn't involved, I probably wouldn't care. There's also no reason to assume that Toei or any other company would be able to do the exact same thing. And even if they did, we would be left wondering what would Toriyama do.

[FortuneSSJ]

If the movies were exactly the same, It wouldn't change my opinion.
My favourite movie, Bojack Unbound, isn't from Toriyama.
The reason why I love BOG and ROF is not only because its from Toriyama. If Toei could pull it off, I would still like it.

Only because he's the author, Its not like Toriyama can't screw up (DB Minus, Freeza power up, ROF ending, etc...)
But I always prefer when the author is involved in anything about his series. There is a big difference between BOG/ROF character interactions and the other movies.
I think he should be one that knows what is better for this series.

Also at this point without Toriyama, I don't think it would be possible to see non-saiyans kick ass in ROF, be it fodder or not.
Instead, Trunks/Goten would definitely be there. Not sure about Buu, I doubt it. Still more likely than Roshi though.

Its not because BOG/ROF came out that I hate all the other movies now. I look to them in a different way now, that's the truth. Because Toriyama does make the difference.
But I still love and dislike the same ones. Nothing changed, in that regard.

[SylentEcho]

If these movies had nothing to do with Toriyama, we'd get the same thing we got before. Goku eating a lot, being a hero and saving the world. A huge number of things from BOG had Toriyama's unmistakable stamp on them.

Of course. Hell, I like Super's version of BoG more and I bet that has nothing to do with Toriyama.

Me too. Also, I don't know why people have a problem with the pace. It seems fine to me. I think the fight in the movie was too rushed and the buildup didn't deliver as well. This one built up slowly and the last few episodes have been crazy fun.

I think people wouldn't be much different....regarding things like story. Designs however I don't see being nearly as accepted. Say SSGSS for instance. The same kind of design, mocked for years on fan art sites for being a recolour and not having any creativity in them. Fans who recoloured old forms were essentially looked over as being lame and unimaginative people. Then when it's official, suddenly that's ok....and those fan artist still suck apparently despite doing the same thing years before Toriyama did it.

Personally, I don't much care for the blue hair or the red hair, but it's something different and I'm all for it. I mean what else could they have done; given him longer hair than an SSJ3? Are you disappointed that they couldn't top SSJ4? Coz that design can't be topped in my opinion and for some reason, it doesn't feel like it's Goku. The way they've designed SSJ god in Super, maintains the traditional look and feel of the characters.

Only because he's the author, Its not like Toriyama can't screw up (DB Minus

Exactly! Especially DB Minus. I pretend like that never happened.

[jamiljamtheman]

I still would have enjoyed them immensely. Because my actual introductions to the DB world were a couple of the movies and (mostly) GT, I've never had a problem with Toei's non-canon stuff. The fact that BoG and RoF are (or at least were, before Super) canon is icing on the cake...I just really enjoyed them for being very enjoyable to watch movies.

As for SSG and SSGSS...I was sort of indifferent when I first saw them, but over time I think they've grown on me. Maybe it's overexposure, but I think the red SSG in particular is awesome looking. Also recently I discovered some AMAZING YoungJijii fanart that made me like SSGSS more:

I'm also pretty late to the fandom so I missed a lot of the deviantart-recolors phase

[irreality]

It wasn't the name that swayed me into liking them, although it did play some part in me deciding to watch it. I'd love to say I'd be open minded and would watch anyway. But given Toei minus Toriyama's batting average for me enjoying their content is pretty low (not zero, but low), I'm very skeptical they *could* have come up with something I would have enjoyed with zero Toriyama involvement.

[Duo]

Toriyama-sensei is always going to carry a lot of weight with anything he does, and that will impact things no matter what.

I used to be one of the loudest and proudest manga/"canon" purists out there, years ago. I rejected all the movies for a time simply for not coming from the author. Now, having grown up a bit, several of the Toei produced movies from the 90's are my favorite DB-related content ever produced. Battle of Gods is my favorite Dragon Ball film, but Movie 1 & 12 will never be far behind that.

And then there's 'F'. A mildly entertaining anti-climax. The suspense that has always defined Dragon Ball found itself largely and suspiciously void in that story. I think the reaction to that film has shown that even the most hardcore fans can recognize flaws in a Toriyama story. Whereas Super had almost nothing to offer to improve Battle of Gods, I'm eager to see what it does with 'F', because it could actually stand to improve. A lot.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

Only because he's the author, Its not like Toriyama can't screw up (DB Minus

Exactly! Especially DB Minus. I pretend like that never happened.

...but it didn't happen

[Zillamon51]

Yes. I don't care how or whether things fit in continuity, whether something originates with Toriyama or Toei, or endless canon debates. It's just a show, so I sit back and relax.