Why is Toriyama taking a massive dump on Gohan?

[JulieYBM]

Yes, what Toriyama has done is perfectly fine, he's lessened use of a character he's interested in using while giving him a happy life. It is more than one could say for Yamcha in some interviews. Gohan never had any unique qualities to begin with, either. Gohan would get mad, stall the fight so Toriyama could think up what to do next and go from there. Gohan has been far more tolerable in Super than he ever was in most of the original comic. The absence of focus has ironically done wonders for his character now that Toriyama doesn't have to struggle to think of what to do next with him. "Gohan doesn't train anymore, he's a scholar, only fights when things start looking bad, is stronger than Piccolo and the Earthlings." Very simple and easy to understand.

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan simply now is not a well written or interesting character.

Was he ever?

I thought he was well written in the Saiyan arc (filler included) and I got an immense kick out of his antics when he was in high school and as the Great Saiyaman. His moment as a SSJ2 at the Cell Games has aged well though, considering how immensely OOC he is for the sake of him being a "badass".

[Gyt Kaliba]

Yes, what Toriyama has done is perfectly fine, he's lessened use of a character he's interested in using while giving him a happy life. It is more than one could say for Yamcha in some interviews.

Exactly. People tend to try and side step that with 'lolz but it's Yamcha, he was never really a fighter anyway', but the fact of the matter is that if any character got a massive dump on them, it's Yamcha. The poor guy doesn't even get to have his off-screen happiness, no, it all had to be ripped away in service of giving us another Saiyan.

But no, let's wax philosophically about how Gohan is being mistreated, despite still being the third strongest character in the main cast (fifth if you want to count Beerus and Whis as main cast) even with falling behind on his training - not to mention most of his power he got through various methods that barely involved any training - and getting to have a happy family life. Poor him.

[dbzfan7]

It seems the people who are fine with Gohan's portrayal in modern material either never liked the character to begin with or barely cared about him.

I wouldn't label that for everyone, but I'd agree and say most people who don't have a problem usually didn't care about the character to begin with. So when some people complain, they may not get it simply because they don't care about the character in question. There are plenty of people who are fine with it too. Plenty of people like Funi Goku, Toei Goku, or GT Goku better than Toriyama Goku. They all have their reasons. People who care more about the character are offended at the wasted potential and un-entertaining misuse (beyond simple in jokes) of Gohan. While people who don't really care much are simply annoyed that the topic keeps coming up over and over and over again.

[Kunzait_83]

It's not fun to see a character you have for so long associated with power, potential and cool fights be given a role that just doesn't seem that entertaining.

As noted by yourself and others here, Gohan's every bit as associated (probably much MORE associated with) a huge, huge reluctance to ever actually USE any of that incredible natural fighting talent he has as he is with actually using it in various cool fights. That's his character: a talented martial artist who never actually wanted to BE a martial artist in the first place. He's a pacifist and an intellectual/bookworm: always has been.

Toriyama tried and experimented a couple of times in the original run with moving Gohan up front and center as the main hero and spinning him as some sort of legit Youxia of some kind, but of course as we all know it never really took. For the record, I do certainly think that the Boo arc as a story in itself would've probably overall fared better with a more satisfying and organic-feeling resolution if Gohan somehow DID wind up fully taking center stage from his dad and somehow in his own way learned to embrace martial arts to some degree and end the series off with him carrying his father's legacy forward as a fighting master of the next generation of warriors. And it certainly would've also given Gohan a much better overall arc and made his journey throughout the series a lot more interesting when looked at on the whole.

As it stands, Gohan ends the whole original series off feeling like one MASSIVELY dropped thread of a character, and the Boo arc's story/trajectory, fun a romp as it still is, feels generally compromised as you can practically see the gears unnaturally twisting and turning and contorting themselves into knots trying to swap Goku back into the lead character role at the very last minute (or close enough to it).

But that's all long, LONG since water under the bridge obviously.

If we're going to get more post-Z material with Goku still as our lead, then you should probably not be terribly shocked for there to have been at least SOME manner of regression in Gohan's fighting ability, as Gohan has ALWAYS had a very consistent history of lapsing in his training in favor of school & study in between major fights and conflicts while only ever really stepping up and pushing himself in cases where he's absolutely NEEDED by his family and friends in the most urgent life or death scenarios. Hell, one of the rare times we ever see him engage in a more sportsman-like "for fun" martial arts tournament (25th Budokai) he had to be out and out BLACKMAILED into doing it.

Having Gohan seriously focus on and maintain/improve his martial arts skills on his own during significant downtime, acting as if he really gives a crap about that life the way his dad and his dad's friends all do, would by this point be much, much more out of character for him in general. The whole scholar thing, etc. If you seriously expect X number of years to pass without major incident after the whole Boo thing ending the way it did and for Gohan to have been spending all that time hurling himself into constant training and sharpening his "Mystic"-era peak skills, you clearly haven't been paying much attention to his actual personality and behavior throughout the whole damn series. He's only EVER been a "badass" when his hand has been absolutely and unavoidably forced into it (though granted of course those moments certainly were all more than substantially badass).

Now to how MUCH of a degree his skills would/should lapse in between major stories/conflicts, that's an entirely separate matter altogether. Do I think that the newer material generally goes a bit TOO far in regards to Gohan's faltering skills? Probably, particularly considering the gobsmackingly insane degree of power and mastery he'd achieved by his teen years (it hasn't been THAT long since they defeated Boo by the time Super/BoG starts)... but at the end of the day stuff like that I find to be by far and away the LEAST of the new material's problems (GT also went more or less this exact same route with him as well let us not forget, though at least there there was a much more significant time jump to more plausibly justify Gohan's massive lapse in skill).

I'm also the furthest thing from a "Power Level" junkie you'll probably find in today's fanbase: those numbers have ALWAYS been bullshit, where always MEANT to be bullshit in the first place, and getting all worked up over one's own made up, fan-wanked mathematical system for them just strikes me as the utmost senselessly dumbest shit to waste any mental energy on in regards to these sorts of "strength debate" things.

[JulieYBM]

Gohan still had his Ultimate form against Beers, Beers was simply stronger. There wasn't any real indication that Gohan had gotten weaker. Even during the Golden Freeza arc our only indication Gohan might be weaker is him not being sure he can still become a Super Saiyan.

[FoolsGil]

You can't have it both ways. He either goes the path of Goku or goes the path of Yamcha. There is no inbetween.

[Gyt Kaliba]

So he either usurps the main character role, despite that path having been tried and not worked, or he's "useless"? What an enlightened approach towards characters.

There is very well an in-between, and as others have pointed out, it's the path he's on right now - still one of the strongest characters in the series, just not one that's anywhere near as enthused about fighting as others in the cast.

I mean, let's all be honest here - if power gains in the series were in any way fair in the first place, Tenshinhan would be the strongest by leaps and bounds.

[Vice]

You can't have it both ways. He either goes the path of Goku or goes the path of Yamcha. There is no inbetween.

Either way, Gohan fans would still find reasons to complain.

[fadeddreams5]

his portrayal in Super doesn't bug you, even a tiny bit? You wouldn't want a bit more done with him as a fighter (mind you, the upcoming episode might have this)?

No. That sounds like inconsistent characterization to me. A confident, able-bodied Gohan doesn't make any sense unless he's been put under some type of immense stress that results in an alien power-up of some sort.

But he was the great saiyaman. He tackled crime and fought on his own accord. Not to mention wanting to fight in Babidi's ship and in the tournament. As for confidence, Piccolo directly noted how much he had grown into a confident warrior while he fought Super Buu. >_>;

It's the overlying story that needs to give this character a reason to fight and show his worth. It's a complete misdirection to have him become progressively weaker and continue his lack of training just because he's a scholar. In both Battle of Gods and RF, there were much better ways of using him without the need of character regression (at least in the latter).

Gohan simply now is not a well written or interesting character.

Was he ever?

I don't think many people would be so passionate about the character if they didn't find him interesting before.

Gohan never had any unique qualities to begin with, either. Gohan would get mad, stall the fight so Toriyama could think up what to do next and go from there. Gohan has been far more tolerable in Super than he ever was in most of the original comic. The absence of focus has ironically done wonders for his character now that Toriyama doesn't have to struggle to think of what to do next with him. "Gohan doesn't train anymore, he's a scholar, only fights when things start looking bad, is stronger than Piccolo and the Earthlings." Very simple and easy to understand.

Whenever Gohan got those rage boosts, he accomplished things though. Against Raditz, he distracted him long enough for Goku to get the full nelson. Against Frieza, he allowed Dende to find and heal Krillin, who would later serve as the catalyst for Goku's SSJ transformation. He later saved Piccolo from Frieza doing this as well. And he was just a beast doing so, despite clearly being a weaker fighter. Among all the cast, besides Krillin, he's also one of the most relatable characters. If all of this isn't unique within the series, I don't know what is.

And the rest you wrote is basically the same as saying that Toriyama went a great direction with him because now he doesn't need to stress over using a character he doesn't like...

[Doctor.]

I don't think many people would be so passionate about the character if they didn't find him interesting before.

I could use the same logic to talk about Broly.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think many people would be so passionate about the character if they didn't find him interesting before.

I could use the same logic to talk about Broly.

Broly is interesting too.

[Kunzait_83]

So he either usurps the main character role, despite that path having been tried and not worked, or he's "useless"? What an enlightened approach towards characters.

There is very well an in-between, and as others have pointed out, it's the path he's on right now - still one of the strongest characters in the series, just not one that's anywhere near as enthused about fighting as others in the cast.

I'm very much in this camp in general. The whole outlook that a lot of the more "Power Level" obsessed folks tend to have of "this character HAS to win a bunch of fights against major series villains and/or even be instrumental in killing them off, otherwise they suck and are completely pointless" has always been incredibly obnoxious and stupid and smacks of a WWE-like mentality.

[Lord Beerus]

You can't have it both ways. He either goes the path of Goku or goes the path of Yamcha. There is no inbetween.

Either way, Gohan fans would still find reasons to complain.

Yeah, it's pretty much a "damned if they", "damned if they don't" situation.

[Michsi]

Love food, love fighting, and do pretty much absolutely nothing beyond maybe 1 or 2 things. That's Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis in a nutshell. It's boring.

This is true. People keep bringing up that this is consistent with his personality, but there one side of him, a very important and established trait that has been focused on more than his love for studying, something that has made him different from his father and the other saiyans. He fights for others. He fights to protect those he cares about. Here's something they could have grabbed onto and used as a reason to keep him interested in fighting. Not for the love of a challenge, we have enough of those around, but for genuinely wanting to protect something/someone.

Well, I don't know how many episodes we'll get in super, we might end up eating our words at some point. Something big might be in store for him.

[dbzfan7]

Love food, love fighting, and do pretty much absolutely nothing beyond maybe 1 or 2 things. That's Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis in a nutshell. It's boring.

This is true. People keep bringing up that this is consistent with his personality, but there one side of him, a very important and established trait that has been focused on more than his love for studying, something that has made him different from his father and the other saiyans. He fights for others. He fights to protect those he cares about. Here's something they could have grabbed onto and used as a reason to keep him interested in fighting. Not for the love of a challenge, we have enough of those around, but for genuinely wanting to protect something/someone.

Well, I don't know how many episodes we'll get in super, we might end up eating our words at some point. Something big might be in store for him.

I've said that many times, but so many people keep misinterpreting that as "Gohan must love fighting too and become Goku #2". The fact that Gohan doesn't like fighting to get stronger or for a challenge is why he's interesting. Goku, Vegeta, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha, literally everyone else fights to test themselves and get stronger. Sure Krillin had originally wanted to get girls, but that goal dropped later on. He genuinely wanted to be the best he can be and take on new challenges. Gohan is the opposite. He's not into fighting like that. He at best enjoys it as a sport and nothing else. He doesn't care to be the very best. This goes against every other character. Gohan has entirely different motivations.

I'd love to eat my own words when it comes to Gohan, but it's unlikely with Super. Instead every character must essentially share the same motivation and have similar traits, or they just ain't worth fleshing out more. Hence my little stat trinity of importance joke which dictates you must love food, love fighting, and pretty much have no life outside that. For some reason you must love to fight and get stronger to fight. Everyone must have the same motivation and can't fight for other reasons. It's why I lose interest in the main characters as they all live the same lifestyle. It's why I really hope the new U6 characters add some diversity instead of everyone being "I wanna fight to be the strongest and best I can be."

It's cool were on the same page especially when you did create the greatest Dragon Ball Fan Manga of all time.

[fadeddreams5]

There may be a misconception in here somewhere, so let me make something clear: I have NO problem with Gohan being a scholar who doesn't train or enjoy fighting anymore. I have a problem with the execution of his portrayal.

Know what I also wouldn't like? For Gohan to quit his studies, take up fighting full-time, and become a Goku clone or identical to Future Gohan in a show where the spotlight is almost entirely on Goku and Vegeta. Of course, if this happened, and I complained, someone out there would write, "some people are never satisfied."

[FoolsGil]

There may be a misconception in here somewhere, so let me make something clear: I have NO problem with Gohan being a scholar who doesn't train or enjoy fighting anymore. I have a problem with the execution of his portrayal.

What, the execution of Gohan being slapped around because he tries to fight when he doesn't train or enjoy fighting? Because that sounds normal. That's what happens to the other guys who can't keep up with the stronger villains. The other guys would KILL to have the silver spoon Gohan has, and Gohan chooses to not do anything with it. Cool.

But that means that when someone tough shows up, he needs to cower with the other guys because he'll just get in the way. That's just the way it is, and he chose that life.

[sayian_nation_]

Gohan was never the character during the original run that his fans like to play him up as. He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead. His portrayal now is in line with this.

Bingo. Gohan is kind of like the black sheep in the family, he never was passionate about fighting like his parents or other siblings. He never intended to follow in his father's footsteps, he wanted to make his own. I love the idea that perhaps the most powerful fighter in that universe really doesn't like the idea of fighting but when he needs to he will.

[Michsi]

I'd love to eat my own words when it comes to Gohan, but it's unlikely with Super. Instead every character must essentially share the same motivation and have similar traits, or they just ain't worth fleshing out more. Hence my little stat trinity of importance joke which dictates you must love food, love fighting, and pretty much have no life outside that. For some reason you must love to fight and get stronger to fight. Everyone must have the same motivation and can't fight for other reasons.

To be fair, there are characters that incorporate that lifestyle and that are worse of than Gohan. I'm still hoping something interesting will happen with Piccolo that does not include dying for someone else

I have a problem with the execution

I think this could be considered the core of most of DBS' problems